[Deck] 12 Post

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Originally Posted by Skurt

I never said that SnT would overcommit. It was a reply to your post below. And as Arianrhod replied to the same Quote

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I was talking about the principle, how decks like Show and Tell do not ever need to overcommit, making the argument moot for that situation.

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Originally Posted by Skurt

But I don't like permanent based swepers. You are giving your opponent useful information about what you plan the coming turns. Maybe this is just my personal feeling.

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Do note Pernicious Deed, and how good it is in Junk lists... using your logic of providing your opponent useful information, could you possibly say it is are terrible as well? What about Engineered Explosives in Stoneblade?

Your argument doesn't really hold, so I am inclined to believe it is more of a personal opinion.

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Originally Posted by Skurt

I still don't think it's that good. You risk it will get destroyd before you even have the posibility to destroy a permanent yourself. And after that they keep playing threts..

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And as I have said before, so what if they play threats after? I could use the same argument against you since Cyclonic Rift doesn't really destroy anything - they're free to keep playing threats...

Any amount of breathing space you can get is welcome in a deck that has the gameplan of "survive to end-game".

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Originally Posted by Skurt

As I said ypu maybe wanted to play repeal for targeting your own permanents.

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I don't know how much testing you've been doing with the deck, but I use Repeal on opponent's permanents more often than mine... If you have the luxury of Repealing your own permanents for tricks like multiple Candelabra activations, then you're already winning, aren't you?

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Originally Posted by Skurt

With Mother of Runes, Repeal is truly great...

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I'm a bit confused though... how is it that D&T decks always have the perfect answer to whatever you're playing every single game? You must be playing against extremely lucky people, or you must be the unluckiest person in the world...

The whole Revoker-on-stone-with-active-mommy scenario doesn't happen a lot in my testing, and even if it does, I end up hardcasting fatties anyway...

I'm more worried about Revoker naming Sensei's Divining Top, or Candelabra of Tawnos to be perfectly honest...

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Originally Posted by Skurt

Well that might be true. Still the deck needs a blue source 9 times out of 10 to win. Am I right?

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You exaggerate... with the amount of games I've played with this deck, I wouldn't put it at 9 out of 10. I would put it closer 55-60% of games require a blue source to win. There are tons of games played out that opponents would Wasteland Tropical Islands instead of Cloudposts. I'm left with all Locus lands, and I hard-cast an Emrakul... Or, I manage to get a Forest, and play Titan with Candelabra.

Blue is your engine, yes it is. Which is why smarter players can opt to screw you out of blue mana... Now, this is exactly what Islands are for; however, color-screwing happens often enough that I wouldn't want to add any more "load" to my color requirements by playing a colored sweeper effect. Maybe it's personal preference.

But here is the clincher, there has never been any game with the deck that I was holding an Oblivion Stone in hand, wishing it was Cyclonic Rift... so why change something that isn't broken?

First of all I would like point out that my question was replacing Repeals with Cyclonic Rifts. Not changing anything about the other swepers, either AID or O-Stone.

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Originally Posted by SBGpinas

I was talking about the principle, how decks like Show and Tell do not ever need to overcommit, making the argument moot for that situation.

Do note Pernicious Deed, and how good it is in Junk lists... using your logic of providing your opponent useful information, could you possibly say it is are terrible as well? What about Engineered Explosives in Stoneblade?

Your argument doesn't really hold, so I am inclined to believe it is more of a personal opinion.

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I think it's easier to play around threats you know about eg. permanent based swepers. That's why i prefer AID, you get the surpringing effect.

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Originally Posted by SBGpinas

And as I have said before, so what if they play threats after? I could use the same argument against you since Cyclonic Rift doesn't really destroy anything - they're free to keep playing threats...

Any amount of breathing space you can get is welcome in a deck that has the gameplan of "survive to end-game".

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If you wan't to survive to end-game you may want more swepers? Rift may help you here.

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Originally Posted by SBGpinas

I don't know how much testing you've been doing with the deck, but I use Repeal on opponent's permanents more often than mine... If you have the luxury of Repealing your own permanents for tricks like multiple Candelabra activations, then you're already winning, aren't you?

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If we more often hit opponents permanents then there is no problems if you use Rifts over Repeals.
No I don't use repeals to do any tricks at all. I don't have any time for that, ever. My only thought was if I would want to save a Needle from O-Stone.

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Originally Posted by SBGpinas

I'm a bit confused though... how is it that D&T decks always have the perfect answer to whatever you're playing every single game? You must be playing against extremely lucky people, or you must be the unluckiest person in the world...

The whole Revoker-on-stone-with-active-mommy scenario doesn't happen a lot in my testing, and even if it does, I end up hardcasting fatties anyway...

I'm more worried about Revoker naming Sensei's Divining Top, or Candelabra of Tawnos to be perfectly honest...

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Maybe it's because my opponents are well aware how to play against us. Therefore they keep some strange hands, and use different strategies to defeat us.

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Originally Posted by SBGpinas

You exaggerate... with the amount of games I've played with this deck, I wouldn't put it at 9 out of 10. I would put it closer 55-60% of games require a blue source to win. There are tons of games played out that opponents would Wasteland Tropical Islands instead of Cloudposts. I'm left with all Locus lands, and I hard-cast an Emrakul... Or, I manage to get a Forest, and play Titan with Candelabra.

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I was just stating that you need a blue scource of some kind, not that statistics was accualy 9/10. You're probably right with 55-60%.
If you got yourself a forest I imagine you have a Trop i play, which is a blue scource.

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Originally Posted by SBGpinas

Blue is your engine, yes it is. Which is why smarter players can opt to screw you out of blue mana... Now, this is exactly what Islands are for; however, color-screwing happens often enough that I wouldn't want to add any more "load" to my color requirements by playing a colored sweeper effect. Maybe it's personal preference.

But here is the clincher, there has never been any game with the deck that I was holding an Oblivion Stone in hand, wishing it was Cyclonic Rift... so why change something that isn't broken?

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As I said above, my opponents are well aware of how to beat us. And they know when they have to change their strategies.

And as i stated at the top: My question was replacing Repeals with Cyclonic Rifts, not exclude other sweepers.
Rift will potentially give you more sweepers as game proceeds, extra breathing spaces are welcome.

Rift over Repeal? Could work, but I'm really a fan of the cantrip effect though haha!

Hmm...

I think by the time you can overload the Cyclonic Rift you would have established a game state wherein you want to be casting bigger bombs at that point. Kozileks, Ulamogs and Primeval Titans. But prior to that Repeal just outshines a boomerang effect. I'd personally run Devastation Tide in that slot over Cyclonic Rift.

Repeals can also act as a pseudo Ritual bouncing your Candelabra and replaying it for another session of Untapping. You can do this as early as turn 4. Repealing your top can also help you dig really deep into you topdecks.

I'm training in MTGO and I still can't beat Jund decks.
1) Deathrite Shaman can punch even with Glacial in table. I lose life, this creature don't deal damage
2) Hymns and discards slows me down and gives to the opp a good chance to attack fast with Goyfs
3) Turn 2 dark confidant is very VERY hard to handle
4) And want to kill Liliana of the Veil with my own hand when I play Show and Tell + Emrakul (or any big body) and opp put her into play :mad:

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Originally Posted by Masamune

I'm training in MTGO and I still can't beat Jund decks.
1) Deathrite Shaman can punch even with Glacial in table. I lose life, this creature don't deal damage
2) Hymns and discards slows me down and gives to the opp a good chance to attack fast with Goyfs
3) Turn 2 dark confidant is very VERY hard to handle
4) And want to kill Liliana of the Veil with my own hand when I play Show and Tell + Emrakul (or any big body) and opp put her into play :mad:

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Yep if Jund gets a good start and you're in top deck mode it is very difficult to win. Exploding an Oblivion Stone usually goes a long way if you can pull that off even with all of the discard. What do you mean opponent put her into play?

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Originally Posted by blindspotxxx

What do you mean opponent put her into play?

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I think he's referring to Show and Tell'ing an Emrakul while the Jund player puts Liliana into play, and then the opponent -2's her the following turn.

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Originally Posted by Masamune

I'm training in MTGO and I still can't beat Jund decks.
1) Deathrite Shaman can punch even with Glacial in table. I lose life, this creature don't deal damage
2) Hymns and discards slows me down and gives to the opp a good chance to attack fast with Goyfs
3) Turn 2 dark confidant is very VERY hard to handle
4) And want to kill Liliana of the Veil with my own hand when I play Show and Tell + Emrakul (or any big body) and opp put her into play :mad:

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Liliana of the Veil can't be put into play via Show and Tell... only artifacts, creatures, enchantments or lands can be played

did you mean he played her normally the turn after?

Yes, after like ac3eb said.
Does anyone could give me a hint to win against Jund?

As noted above, and it's worth restating, Liliana cannot be put into play off Show and Tell. If your opponent does this, call a judge. If your opponent plays Liliana the turn after your Show and Tell, you've already gotten value if you dropped in a Titan. If your only play was an Eldrazi, well, sometimes that happens. And you just instant win when they don't have the Liliana. Pithing Needle can disable Liliana, so that can be a line of play. Show and Tell --> Eldrazi is not the primary plan, though.

My experience with this matchup is based on the Repeal list, but I found it favorable. I haven't tested against the Punishing Fire builds, but those should be even more favorable because Punishing Fire is a dead card against Turbo Drazi.

You can use Sensei's Divining Top to find and float Show and Tell and a Titan (or an Eldrazi, but you usually want a Titan), which beats their discard effects, even if they have a million of them. Repeal is very strong at buying time, and even if all you have in hand is Top and Repeal, you can use that combination to build yourself a new hand. I would usually Repeal Deathrite Shaman on their Turn 1, which gains you tempo. Or you could repeal Dark Confidant on Turn 2 if they don't open with Shaman.

Making land drops is very important. As long as you're making land drops, you can usually get to your endgame before their creatures can beat you to death. Tarmogoyf is the only sizable creature in the deck, so I find their clock to usually be slow. When you have a few land in play, even if you have little or no hand, your topdecks are so crushing. Primeval Titan is larger than their Tarmogoyfs, and he ramps you into Eye of Ugin, so even if they drop Liliana, you should be able to tutor up another threat.

Jund is the tempo deck in this situation. If they can't strangle you in the early game, they're not going to get there unless you just brick forever. When you can take control of the tempo, whether it's with Repeal or with Crop Rotation in response to a Wasteland, or whether it's Pithing Needle on Deathrite Shaman, then you stunt their development and can leave them with unplayable cards in hand. Bloodbraid Elf is absolutely terrible unless they can produce four mana. I should say that I have also on occasion played Submerge in my sideboard, and even though I haven't been paired against Jund when I was running it, it's quite good against that deck. I haven't run All Is Dust or Oblivion Stone against this matchup, but both seem decent. Another devastating topdeck possibility.

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Originally Posted by SBGpinas

Liliana of the Veil can't be put into play via Show and Tell... only artifacts, creatures, enchantments or lands can be played

did you mean he played her normally the turn after?

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Originally Posted by Masamune

Yes, after like ac3eb said.
Does anyone could give me a hint to win against Jund?

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SBGpinas is correct. I used to think of the same thing until 3 weeks ago lol They can't put Liliana into play that's an illegal play. If they cast it then well that doesn't concern Jund anymore does it? Most black decks do run Liliana, that's the reason why I can't let go of Pithing Needles in the Main Deck even when most lists is starting to just cut Pithing Needles. You can Needle so many things against Jund that it's still worth playing. Liliana exploding is pretty game over and you can't really kill her fast enough with a creature white she ticks to death.

Thank you for reply.

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Originally Posted by ESG

As noted above, and it's worth restating, Liliana cannot be put into play off Show and Tell. If your opponent does this, call a judge. If your opponent plays Liliana the turn after your Show and Tell, you've already gotten value if you dropped in a Titan. If your only play was an Eldrazi, well, sometimes that happens. And you just instant win when they don't have the Liliana. Pithing Needle can disable Liliana, so that can be a line of play. Show and Tell --> Eldrazi is not the primary plan, though.

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Unfortunately, they run Maestron Pulse, Abrupt Decay and discard cards. All of then is a pain

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Originally Posted by ESG

My experience with this matchup is based on the Repeal list, but I found it favorable. I haven't tested against the Punishing Fire builds, but those should be even more favorable because Punishing Fire is a dead card against Turbo Drazi.

You can use Sensei's Divining Top to find and float Show and Tell and a Titan (or an Eldrazi, but you usually want a Titan), which beats their discard effects, even if they have a million of them. Repeal is very strong at buying time, and even if all you have in hand is Top and Repeal, you can use that combination to build yourself a new hand. I would usually Repeal Deathrite Shaman on their Turn 1, which gains you tempo. Or you could repeal Dark Confidant on Turn 2 if they don't open with Shaman.

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Repeal list is IMO much better than Rift list or mono green list. I usually see a couple of times opp playing Force of Will against Delvers and taking so much advantage with draw effect. By the way to repeal Confidants Turn 2 is very uncommon for me, because opp aways have discard effects, or simple when they starts first we can't do anything to stop Confidat at the first moment. I'm not saying that isn't a option. I'm saying that a little slow because several times I'm obliged to cast Expedition Map or a tapped land.

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Originally Posted by ESG

Making land drops is very important. As long as you're making land drops, you can usually get to your endgame before their creatures can beat you to death. Tarmogoyf is the only sizable creature in the deck, so I find their clock to usually be slow. When you have a few land in play, even if you have little or no hand, your topdecks are so crushing. Primeval Titan is larger than their Tarmogoyfs, and he ramps you into Eye of Ugin, so even if they drop Liliana, you should be able to tutor up another threat.

Jund is the tempo deck in this situation. If they can't strangle you in the early game, they're not going to get there unless you just brick forever. When you can take control of the tempo, whether it's with Repeal or with Crop Rotation in response to a Wasteland, or whether it's Pithing Needle on Deathrite Shaman, then you stunt their development and can leave them with unplayable cards in hand. Bloodbraid Elf is absolutely terrible unless they can produce four mana. I should say that I have also on occasion played Submerge in my sideboard, and even though I haven't been paired against Jund when I was running it, it's quite good against that deck. I haven't run All Is Dust or Oblivion Stone against this matchup, but both seem decent. Another devastating topdeck possibility.

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Even playing Glacial as a backup plan Jund many times IS very fast than Post-Ramp deck. Bloodbraid is terrible indeed but turn 4 for us is very common and opp playing a haste creature and fall a Liliana or a Goyf is tough, argh...
Anyway I haven't tested yet these removals (Dust and Oblivion); my current list is Tony's list with Mindbreak Trap in SB. I want to exchange in future for Flutterstorms but I haven't tickets by now. Next month maybe (I spend money, not winning tournaments because I have no free time every day, so would take forever for me to have legacy decks).
Finally I find out that deck is very good against: Miracles, Affinity, Dredges, Enchantress, Thopters and Dreadstills. Combo decks not so good: Belcher, ANT. The remaining known decks I don't know yet... I'm playing when I can :)

I think Oblion list is a must in current meta full of BUG and Jund decks.
I hate Liliana of the Veil. Period.

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Originally Posted by Masamune

I think Oblion list is a must in current meta full of BUG and Jund decks.
I hate Liliana of the Veil. Period.

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It's basically a toss-up between Oblivion Stone and All is Dust for board-sweep effects.

Oblivion Stone
+ Can be played a turn early, then activated later on
+ Can be played via Show and Tell (against a Show and Tell opponent)
* Kills Artifacts and Eldrazi (this is both a Pro and a Con, depending on the current board state)
- Can be stopped by Pithing Needle/Phyrexian Revoker
- Vulnerable to Stifle effects
- If played early, can be removed before getting activated

All is Dust
+ Requires less mana, especially with an Eye of Ugin in play
+ Cannot be Stifled
* Doesn't destroy artifacts (relevant to the MUD Matchup, which is not the greatest)
- Can't be played via Show and Tell
- Pumps opposing Tarmogoyfs twice (since it's a Tribal Sorcery)
- Cannot be pre-paid like Oblivion Stone

Still can't handle Confidants, Liliana and Toughtseizes.
Doesn't matter if Oblin Stone is in play, Abrupt Hits it and All is Dust is slow.
Is there something I miss about this deck and strategies? Because fight against BUG has been impossible for me

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Originally Posted by Masamune

Still can't handle Confidants, Liliana and Toughtseizes.
Doesn't matter if Oblin Stone is in play, Abrupt Hits it and All is Dust is slow.
Is there something I miss about this deck and strategies? Because fight against BUG has been impossible for me

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If you're running Brainstorm, use it to hide away things you don't want discarded by the opponent.

Slow him down by Repealing Bob. Repeal also does wonders against Liliana.

Pithing Needle on Liliana will slow him down enough for you to stabilize. If he removes it via Abrupt Decay, you then cast Oblivion Stone, and chances are he won't have a 2nd one before you are able to activate it.

Other than that, there's not much you can do if your opponents appear to have extremely dumb luck like that.

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Originally Posted by Masamune

Still can't handle Confidants, Liliana and Toughtseizes.
Doesn't matter if Oblin Stone is in play, Abrupt Hits it and All is Dust is slow.
Is there something I miss about this deck and strategies? Because fight against BUG has been impossible for me

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I'm actually testing a slightly different version from the last Rock Lee has purposed (+1 show and tell main -1 repeal main and -1 oblivion, -1 CotV, -1 Mindbreak trap, +3 Submerge sb) since i think S&T is really a dirty card i want to see in almost every game except against other S&T decks. From my testing, i found that against BUG you have to side in 3-4 flusterstorms and of course i side in Submerge too. My meta is full of knights of the reliquary too, and i found submerge really handy to deal with pesky creatures since in this period almost every fair deck is running green.
I'm not totally sure that running no brainstorms is the right way, but i have to admit that needles really saved my butt lately. I'm not willing to blow up my own precious artifacts with oblivion stones (expecially when your opponent is sitting with a couple of wastelands in play while you're keeping them at bay with a providencial needle), so i'm trying 3x All is dust main too. I'm not completely sold on these either, but we'll see...

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Originally Posted by SBGpinas

If you're running Brainstorm, use it to hide away things you don't want discarded by the opponent.

Slow him down by Repealing Bob. Repeal also does wonders against Liliana.

Pithing Needle on Liliana will slow him down enough for you to stabilize. If he removes it via Abrupt Decay, you then cast Oblivion Stone, and chances are he won't have a 2nd one before you are able to activate it.

Other than that, there's not much you can do if your opponents appear to have extremely dumb luck like that.

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Well... sometimes I get fluke way like repealing Liliana in response to discard effect, making opp discard herself.
Many times I chose Liliana in Needle over Deathrites or Wastelands but often with Glacial chasm in play I lose life by Deathrites even with Chasm in play or if I chose it Liliana slow me down.
I'd like to hear which cards is good to replace in game 2. For example: take off Repeal, Sensei? Or Maps? I usually replace Maps but I didn't realize howe important is hold it for next game.

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Originally Posted by Davek

I'm actually testing a slightly different version from the last Rock Lee has purposed (+1 show and tell main -1 repeal main and -1 oblivion, -1 CotV, -1 Mindbreak trap, +3 Submerge sb) since i think S&T is really a dirty card i want to see in almost every game except against other S&T decks. From my testing, i found that against BUG you have to side in 3-4 flusterstorms and of course i side in Submerge too. My meta is full of knights of the reliquary too, and i found submerge really handy to deal with pesky creatures since in this period almost every fair deck is running green.
I'm not totally sure that running no brainstorms is the right way, but i have to admit that needles really saved my butt lately. I'm not willing to blow up my own precious artifacts with oblivion stones (expecially when your opponent is sitting with a couple of wastelands in play while you're keeping them at bay with a providencial needle), so i'm trying 3x All is dust main too. I'm not completely sold on these either, but we'll see...

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Submerge sound very good since the Legacy meta is full of Misty Rainforests and any searchable land. Bounce to top and shuffle it in response is wounderful.
Your point about All is Dust isn't bad at all but IMO we must to think how stop fast these stomp~control decks. The only way I could win is play S&T + Titan. I want to know more strategies.

I'm thinking run Engineered Explosives. I can play with 1cc and 2cc, is faster and kills Delvers, Deathrites, Mangooses, Goyfs, Confidants, Stoneforges and Snapcasters.