[Deck] Jund

Also, you don't want to expose Deathrite needlessly unless you have something like a Dark Confidant after that. First turn Thoughseize allows you to sculpt your plan significantly.

Very few combo decks can go off on turn 1. The ones that do get hurt a lot by it (Belcher) still can top-deck into something quickly, and they run up to 11 kill spells, so chances are reasonable they will hit it. That being said, there's no question about turn 1 TS vs. Belcher, just saying, it might not be the one all end all.

Against other combo decks, it is significantly better to play Shaman first so you can vault ahead. You need a bit of luck to win. If they have it (and they might), c'est la vie.

The bigger concern is that they might be able to use Brainstorm to hide their best cards. If this is the issue, then try to get TS going when they cannot Brainstorm.

Quote:

---

I've tried playing a list with 2 bolts and I already found it too lacking in bolts. I like increasing my chances of having one in my opening hand when it matters.

Does anyone play a list with 3/4 decay, 3/4 bolt, 3 hymn, 3/4 pf AND 2 libraries? Or am I asking too much?

---

Right now I am running the list very close to mentioned one from GP Strasbourg:

Creatures [15]
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

Instants [9]
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire (I still don't get why people want to run 4 of them without Bolts, 2cc burn is really expensive in the world of Daze and Spell Pierce when you really need to kill that flipped Delver on 2 mana)

Sorceries [8]
1 Maelstrom Pulse (I like versatile answer to anything what Decay is bad at)
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize (Might be 2+2 IoK as well)

Artifacts [1]
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Enchantments [2]
2 Sylvan Library (I was playing with random one unless I found that 6th Bob is really, really important)

Planeswalkers [3]
3 Liliana of the Veil (4 is really too much)

Lands [24]
1 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
<s>3 Wasteland</s> (I will explain later why)
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard
3 Leyline of Sanctity (meta-call, since we have burn and UR delvers around, also fine against TES and ANT)
2 Engineered Plague (tribal deck are also present in our meta, and it is an answer against Storm's goblins)
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Angel of Despair (3 OmniSneaks forced me to waste this 3 precious slots, since they side in )
3 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction (I tried Extirpates but found Surgicals more effective, since you don't lose the temp)
1 Nihil Spellbomb (because you need to nuke ooposing p.fires)

The problem I found which affects Jund stability is that you can't hope to play reliably with Hymn + P.Fire + Wasteland in one deck. I don't want to be desperately hoping to draw the right part of the deck's manabase every now and then, to say nothing of opponents Stifles and Wastelands attacking our shaky manabase.
Now I see the following variants to go:

1) Replace Hymn with Inquisition of Kozilek thus making Liliana the only double black cost in the deck. I tried that and it is not acceptable for me. Though pinpoint discard is giving you more information it is not well paired with the plan to leave them without hand (thanks, Liliana)
I like Hymn very much since it proved its power on turn 2-3 against slow decks, when it hits most valuable things left when a couple of lands have left their hand. Of course, it always depends on the situation, for example I left Hyms against Elves on the play and sided them out on the draw since I probably won't have time for them.
2) Switch Wastelands with basic lands to build up steady manabase against RUG, Dark Loam or any other deck with Wastelands. You really want to get 4 lands in play. You want to cast your BBE, you want to cast your spells AND activate your shaman for pings. Jund is mana hungry deck and destroying your own manabase while you draw 3cc and 4cc costs, when your lands are
3) You cut P.Fires for 4th Bolt, 1 Scavenging Ooze, 4th Abrupt Decay/1 IoK. I don't like that plan since P.Fires give you reach in long play with blue decks, killing Jace, Spirits, opposing Shamans and utilizing your spare mana when you start to draw multiple lands, still pinging your opponent.

3 Leyline of Sanctity: will you really mulligan into those?
You do realise you cannot actually cast these, I hope?
Chances of having a three-of in your opener are way under 40% so you need a lot of luck to get to them.

3 Angel of Despair: also uncastable. Very narrow sideboard card, only works against Show and Tell and Hypergenesis.
This seems too narrow to play in the side.

These slots seem loose in your sideboard.
I would suggest 2-3 Duress, maybe 1-2 Maelstrom Pulse, perhaps an additional Plague, or maybe Grim Lavamancer.
Duress helpt against Combo, Show and tell, heavy control decks.
Grim Lavamancer is good against any aggro, the mirror and so on.
Pulses are strong against heavy control (planeswalkers) and against Empty the Warrens tokens.

Thanks anakyn and razvan. I think it's a lot more clear as how to think on the matchups. Also what do you think about Pernicious Deed vs Engineered Explosives?

About Angel of Despair, I agree with Asthereal, you can't cast it if you need to, which is why in my case I prefer opting for Ensnaring Bridge instead, which also allows for a Punishing Fire/Deathrite Shaman lock.

As for Grim Lavamancer, I don't think you need him if you're playing Punishing Jund, but I'd certainly do if it is a regular Jund!

Quote:

---

3 Leyline of Sanctity: will you really mulligan into those?
You do realise you cannot actually cast these, I hope?

---

If I have a strong opening hand with TS, Hymn, Liliana, DRS - there is no need to mulligan.
Theoretically I can do with 2 DRS.

Quote:

---

3 Angel of Despair: also uncastable. Very narrow sideboard card, only works against Show and Tell and Hypergenesis.This seems too narrow to play in the side.

---

I have already explained that this is meta specific sideboard since there are 3 OmniSneak for 12-20 people and I don't want to sit 2 and 3 game against Show decks starting with Leyline of Sanctity and watch him winning with my hand full of discard. I also hardcasted once topdecked Angel (yes, there were 2 DRS) once to kill Emrakul FTW. I know that it is uncastable but it is a reliable answer to Show.

I think that with recursive removal we don't need 3rd Engineered plague. This is done to make our lives a little bit easier besides it kills small ones in great numbers.

Quote:

---

Grim Lavamancer is good against any aggro, the mirror and so on.

---

Grim Lavamancer is non-bo for this deck due to Shaman, Tarmo and Punishing Fire reasons.
He is also very fragile since EVERYTHING kills him. I don't want to wait a turn before killing opposing Bobs, Mother of Runes, DRS and so on.
I hope you know that Jund mirror is a hard and unpredictable one, but Punishing Fire is a key card which kills literally everything in Jund except Tarmo.

Quote:

---

Pulses are strong against heavy control (planeswalkers) and against Empty the Warrens tokens.

---

We already have reach against heavy controls: Punishing Fire and BBE. Empty the Warrens meets maindeck Pulse and 2 E.Plague in Side, if he decides to go for Goblins.

Quote:

---

I prefer opting for Ensnaring Bridge instead, which also allows for a Punishing Fire/Deathrite Shaman lock.

---

I tried that, but unfortunately it doesn't help against Omniscience - B.Wish for Petals of Insight, played 1000000 times - B.Wish for Grapeshot for 1 000 000+n to the dome.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cryoclasm

If I have a strong opening hand with TS, Hymn, Liliana, DRS - there is no need to mulligan.

---

Correct. You never really worry about mulliganning into a perfect hand vs. SnT. First, there is no such thing. You just have to hope to get lucky. If they have Leyline AND the combo, you are dead no matter what you have, short of playing stuff like Reverent Silence (thinking about it).

Quote:

---

Grim Lavamancer is non-bo for this deck due to Shaman, Tarmo and Punishing Fire reasons.
He is also very fragile since EVERYTHING kills him. I don't want to wait a turn before killing opposing Bobs, Mother of Runes, DRS and so on.

---

That is the risk you have to take. I would never cut a Lightning Bolt from the 75, but people do, and I often find myself wanting another 1cc removal spell. Yes, Lavamancer is SIGNIFICANTLY better on the play, because then it CAN kill that stuff, but what can you do, a lot is better on the play.

I don't really play Lavamancer, but I wouldn't be unhappy with one. It is a very potent card, and it's not a non-bo. You have so much stuff that goes to the GY, your removal kills something of theirs, your discard, lands, etc. Your GY and their GY is usually full. Yes, sometimes, you don't want to over-rely on the GY in the face of much GY removal, but he is not a nonbo.

Razvan, I share your opinion. However, I often find myself even with DRS when I can't ping the opponent for 2, since I don't want to make Tarmo smaller, and the only instant in my graveyard is Punishing Fire.

I agree that 2 Lavamancers should be fine in main if you are playing with Wastelands without P.Fire.
I should mention that I like siding E.Plagues against Maverick setting for Humans, since they have only Scryb Ranger, Knight of Reliquary(still very small due to DRS AND Plague), Quasali Pridemage and Stoneforge Mystic after that.
Yes, it hits our own Bobs, but hey, if they have nothing on board I don't worry.

Reverent Silence seems good in sideboard should the metagame shift to Enchantress and SnT being at least 20% of the field. =)

@Cryoclasm:
If a hughe chunk of your meta consist of Show and Tell, and a fair bit also of Burn, you are playing the wrong deck. Try Bant Aggro with Rhox War Monks and Oblivion Rings on side. You'll find that doing very nicely in such a meta.

What if you p[lay the board you suggested and encounter all the other stuff? Then you have a sideboard of only 9 cards. That seems weak. I would seriously recommend either to play a different list, or to play sideboard cards that are versatile and will also help in the matchups you fear.

Grim Lavamancer is so strong against certain decks that it is worth the disadvantage. If you need recurring damage, but they stop your recurring PF, you will be very pleased to find a Lavaman. I'm not saying the guy will always be brilliant. He's just very good, especially against Maverick (which seems to be coming back, and is a very losable matchup). Against tribal, I don;t think I have to explain how awesome he is. They will do whatever it takes to kill/counter him, and then Punishing Fire will just finish the game off.

By the way, against Show and Tell, you can also just side more REB/Pyroblasts. Those are always nice to have against Blue Control as well, and they can help with countering cantrips against Storm. Not ideal, but better than Abrupt Decay at least. So if you are afraid of Leyline of Sanctity just side more 'Blasts.

If Burn is what you are afraid of, you can also consider life gaining creatures. If your mana base can handle it, Kitchen Finks might be an option. Those will also help against the occasional Zoo deck (you won't encounter many of those, but Zoo is very losable).

Asthereal, here we have an idiom "Do not pee against the wind" =) Yes, if our meta were full of Burn and SnT decks I would play another deck. However, there are other good match-ups too, like Elves, Maverick, Stoneblade Esper and UWR.
and the second reason is that if I could afford another deck I would do that, since I like playing different stuff.

It is almost impossible to win against burn, but UR delver is pretty fine. I didn't lose a round to it for months, since basic lands render Price of Progress inefficient and the only thing I am afraid of are multiple delvers when I do not draw any removal.

No Zoo(5cc, right?) in our meta at all, and I have met it only once and won easily since their only hard to kill creature is Geist and they can't counter my expensive edict from Liliana.

If you don't like white Leylines you would replace them with Mindbreak Trap, since this is another 0-turn answer to Storm which is always popular. After extensive testing the side with 3 Traps + 2 Duress + 2 REBs I still found out that Storm can check you with G.Probe for trap and combo-out even after you Duress+Hymn him.

By the way, I always side in REBs against Storm, since not only they are countering cantrips when they try to hide their precious cards from discard but they can also stop Diminishing Returns combo-out.

I am going to give another chance to Grim Lavamancer and Wasteland build and tell you the results, should you be interested.

I dunno, I've always thought decks such as burn are exactly like Combo decks. You get a hand, and it must be almost enough to kill an opponent. You don't interact with them and just burn down till they are gone. I think in those matchups Jund should behave as you would to combos. Discard spells, and board them Duresses too! Maybe board out P.Fires since we use them for creature control if you need the slots.

Our lilianas and shaman are drawing burn spells to them since they can't afford to leave a lifegain creature on the table. I played recently with a singleton of Scavenging Ooze in the past for RUG, StormCombo, Burn and UR delver matchups but found out that my board is enough for them(Jitte belongs to main, don't forget). The result totally depends if burn draws enough fuel to fry us like a pancake or they will draw some creatures and lands and get them discarded/killed and eaten by shaman/ooze. Leyline of Sanctity proved to be VERY demoralizing card and I am quite happy with it.

@Cryoclasm:
:wink: But I'm sure you understand that Jund is a meta thing. It look srediculous in Legacy to play Bloodbraid Elves, and the main reason is because Storm, Show and Tell and a couple of other decks just rip you apart and the only thing you can do is hope they draw crap and your Thoughtseize cripples them just enough for your dude to finish them off. Small chance of that happening. :tongue:

But I find it pretty interesting that a deck that I used to look at frowning, and used to mock all the time, actually made it to DtB. I'm experimenting a bit as well, and I found that if you play Deathrites correctly, and you get the proper amount of card advantage going that Jund is sort of famous for, the deck is actually pretty dangerous. Right now I'm experimenting with a regular Bolt list, because I feel the mana base is a lot stronger, and the faster removal sometimes helps. Does suck in the mirror, but we can't have it all. My current list:

Creatures:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf /15

Spells:
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek (I like to have at least 10 fine one-drops - doing nothing on turn 1 just sucks...)
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil /22

Lands:
3 Bayou
3 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland /23

Sideboard:
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Surgical Extraction /15

The sideboard is pretty versatile. I like it that way.

14 discard is a lot. I run 9 total, which is low, but I wouldn't really go above 11. I include Liliana in this.

Umezawa's Jitte is nothing short of amazing. If I could fit in two I would.

I couldn't find if it has been discussed before, but does anyone have suggestions about how to beat Sigarda? I'm playing Punishing Jund right now and last weekend I had a super-long grindy game against Maverick and game three he was able to draw Sigarda while I just had Bloodbraid and Liliana on the board and then quickly lost with removal waiting in hand. In my sideboard I have Penicious Deed and sometimes Ensnaring Bridge, is there anything else that people bring in that could help? Now that my playgroup saw how easily I lost to Sigarda, it looks like she's going to become more of a staple for me to go up against.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by razvan

14 discard is a lot. I run 9 total, which is low, but I wouldn't really go above 11. I include Liliana in this.

---

Also I think Inquisition and Abrupt are sort of the same slot? I wouldn't try discarding 3CMC if I can just destroy it later with decay. Sure, I can't A.Decay Show and Tell, but I'd rather play Duress and be able to discard Sneak Attack as well if I'm going to worry about sorceries and the like. Whatever can be destroyed with mana 3 costs I'd rather use Decay instead.

Also about Sigarda, that sounds scary. I haven't seen one like that around here, but sure sounds like a tough one to deal with. I don't thin kthere's an easy way into it, except hoping to out-goyf it, or then as you said, through P.Deed. In my case I'd maybe try using Ensanaring Bridge, since I use 3 copies of that on the board, and then win the game through P.Fire+Shaman.

I sometimes have Damnation in my sideboard for these issues, or maybe even Perish (I know). That certainly helps, otherwise try to race.

The advantage we have against Maverick or Rock is that we are not so reliant on creatures. Actually just smoking their other creatures with burn and the like, and using shaman to buffer the 5 life we lose to her, should be enough.

I wouldn't worry about it. If they get to 5 mana, or 6 for GSZ, and they get her... then that's that. We cannot prepare for everything.

also:

Quote:

---

Also I think Inquisition and Abrupt are sort of the same slot? I wouldn't try discarding 3CMC if I can just destroy it later with decay. Sure, I can't A.Decay Show and Tell, but I'd rather play Duress and be able to discard Sneak Attack as well if I'm going to worry about sorceries and the like. Whatever can be destroyed with mana 3 costs I'd rather use Decay instead.

---

I wouldn't play Inquisition. I would play Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy and Duress over IoK. Don't get me wrong, I love IoK, but you are correct, we have enough anti 3-mana solutions.

Duress is nice because it cannot be misdirected and takes no life. The only reason I even use Thoughtseize over it is Nimble Mongoose, and the fact that sometimes, you don't want to have Duress maindeck. Neither of the 4 1cc cards is wrong per-se, but you should be aware of the pro's, and limitations, of each. Thoughtseize is generally the best because you *are* faster than most things that attack your life directly. And against RUG, I just straight up switch TS for other stuff in g2 and g3.

So I've been playing this list recently and it's addressed the issues that I've had with the deck which were the desire for more threats and recurring removal without weakening the mana base.

Creatures: 16
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Tombstalker

Disruption: 17
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn
2 Liliana

Other: 5
2 Night's Whisper
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Mana: 22
3 Waste
3 Basics
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
9 Fetches

-4 Bob +2 Tombstalker +2 Night's Whisper seems weird and clunky but so far it's impressed me enough to keep it as is for now. Also Grim Lavamancer is really really good in the format right now.

Cutting Bob seems like a radical design departure. It's further than I can take it. Has anyone tested extensively on 22 Lands in the non Punishing version? Can the deck support 3/4 BBE on 22 lands and 4DRS?

23 lands is as low as I can go. 22 will seriously hurt your best match-ups, and even 23 is a issue sometimes.

Cutting Bobs seems insane.

I actually find 23 to be the highest I could go. I haven't had too many mana issues with 22 lands though personally.