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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayradis
come on ... if you are able to stick a fattie against RUG you won near anyways. The issue is to make this happen or find an alternative gameplan
@ beating RUG Delver: You can try the swarm-plan via Wirewood Hivemaster or Wolf-Skull Shaman ... never tested, just an idea
Wouldn't Imperious Perfect be a better swarm engine than Wolfskull? It can be twiddled and the tokens are Elves.
The main problem here is Rough//Tumble.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
If I can stick a fatty, it's mostly over, yes, I agree.
Still. We should find ways to improve the Match up G2-3
@Zombie : I don't believe Imperious Perfect would be usuable. Nice thinking tho!
It wasn't my intention to say it's anywhere near the best of ideas. Just better than Wolfskull because all manner of fringe benefits and reliability - you make tokens no matter what. Plus considering how big of a thorn Lingering Souls is in some decks' side, what about an active Perfect, kept safe with Symbiotes?
I like the idea of being able to use a badass elf that is fun to play but not typically practical in this deck as a SB option. However, apart from being a few years removed from active play, I've never played against RUG/Delver. After reading the description (of RUG/Delver) it seems like this might work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
On another note, props to all these recent posts. Someone else already said it but this is the most comprehensive Elf post ever. But the math is beyond me, not so much in understanding as in a good chunk of this game is luck and randomness. Even a deck designed to beat another deck can lose to that same deck when the stars and shit align. So getting too stressed about 3 DRS or 4 seems to be a metagame/playstyle question as compared to a discussion on why to play DRS at all. I'm just an amateur player, I'd rather have a fun time at a tourney like Danyul's report talks about than stress over perfection. Just saying.
Yeah RUG Delver can beat you just like they beat any other deck - with a clock and some serious disruption - but in my experience, using Cabal Therapy to rip up their hand has been a winning strategy. Also, Stifle means we should swap the second Hoof for a Prog (I haven't tried Ruric Thar here yet but that seems to be an option) and be sure to max out on Scavenging Oozes.
The cards you fear, other than their whole deck, are Rough/Tumble, sometimes Firespout, Stifle (if you are about to Hoof them), and Submerge (this can hurt a lot or very little, depending on the boardstate and size of your Scooze).
I don't think this matchup calls for special sideboard cards. I think you can beat it with careful play and a bit of good juju. But that's just my experience.
I find Ooze overwhelming in this matchup.
GSZ = 2 with a cradle untapped is quite a way to stabilize midgame and turn their goyfs/moogose into Weenies.
I switched from 4 th NO + Progenitus plan to 2 nd Ooze and 1 Thrun. I think against tempo or even miracle if you count thrun vs countertop/swords it is much better. This deck can beat any fair deck without the big hydra god.
I also play Ruric mainboard, the ogre works quite good if you cant kill them with craterhoof (or you smell stifle, terminus etc.)
This times a million. Against RUG, I play three stages:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayradis
Stage 1: develop a solid mana base with Forest.
Stage 2: flood the board (no more than 4 dudes). Apply pressure, try to resolve Glimpse for card advantage (firstly), combo if possible (secondary).
Stage 3: after a sweeper, or if Goyf/Goose/Delver starts to become too much to handle with Wirewood fogging, deploy Scavenging Ooze and shred the graveyard. Eat as many creatures to gain life and put more pressure. Submerge is going to be an issue, so don't waste all your mana into him unless you're sure it's going to be lethal.
I'm curious about your use of Cabal Therapy against RUG, Danyul. It's not my first instinct for sure, but I'm open to thougths and other's experiences.
In general, I'd side as follows against RUG:
-1 Heritage Druid, -1 Nettle Sentinel, -1 Quirion Ranger, -3 NO (O remaining), -1 Hoof (1 remaining in)
+1 Thalia, +1 Thorns, +2 Abrupt Decay, +2 Scavenging Ooze, +1 Eternal Witness/Absolute Law/Jitte
Possibly, additional -1 Llanowar and add the 2nd Thorns -- Or you could obviously take out Viridian Shaman (she's in my main), but Ive had haunting experiences with Cursed Totem so I'm too scared a lot of time and some lists run Jitte.
My experience has varied with the Thorn effects, but they seem better than the stuff I'm taking out. They're also better on the play than on the draw, fwiw.
Thrun is interesting (survives Rough/Tumble), but I think the issue with Thrun is: 1) it's still smaller than Goyf, 2) Symbiote allows indefinite blocking already, 3) Casting cost
Against RUG, I always bring in Oozes, Decays, and Progenitus. What are you trying to name with Therapy here? Their only hope for a quick clock is with Delver (so maybe that if you're on the play) as we'll muck up the ground level. And then Decay just murders that strategy.
I dunno if this needs to be said, yet I'm going to anyways... As it was foretold centuries ago, the way to beat RUG and UWR is to play around Wasteland, Daze, and Stifle. I know that's a very mundane statement, but take it as you will. These MUs can (and ideally do) go long, so you don't need to rush anything. Visionary is simply amazing in this MU. Play for the best friend team as that will win you the game.
Good RUG pilots know that the dangerous creature in the deck is the symbiote, and will gladly bolt it first.
The bestfriend team might get hard to assemble.
Absolutely. You'll likely have to draw multiple Symbiotes before you can get there. Be thankful we get to play 8 copies of it. DRS is also a nightmare for them, to be fair.
Yep. It even puts them on the dilemma of Bolting the Visionary with the Symbiote on the stack, which is great for us either way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absolutflipz
I would think leading with Visionary first is correct, so that if you are able to resolve Symbiote you'll have priority to at least bounce the Visionary once before the Symbiote is Bolted.
I wouldn't cut Heritage Druid, as those are integral to comboing off, if that play presents itself. I never cut Nettle, since those enable all of our plans. I wouldn't cut Q.Ranger, since those protect our nonbasics and can help us get extra value out of our lands if they start attacking our mana aggressively. I can see cutting NO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absolutflipz
My SB is a bit different from yours. I don't run tax effects. I'm mainly using the Therapies to knock board wipes, counterspells, and creatures out of their hand. I'll name Rough/Tumble or Stifle on the first cast and then, depending on what I see, go for their best card. Of course, discard isn't the best answer for a board wipe, as they can always draw it off the top or hide it with Brainstorm. But I'm not bringing in the full set of Therapies. I would grab 2-3. And I'm expecting them not to play around that card. So hopefully they sit on their Rough/Tumble and I can snag it. Alternatively, I would cast it right before comboing off, to check for Stifles (which make Hoof super sad) and to steal their Forces.
I'll admit that I haven't had the most rigorous testing against RUG since nobody plays it much around here anymore after DRS/Abrupt Decay hit the scene. But this is my current gameplan against them. I'm open to suggestions!
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk
Taking out a Heritage Druid and a Nettle Sentinel is fine as the matchup is very grindy and much less combo-oriented. Heritage Druid is one of the worst Elves in the deck when you're not comboing, and I'm fairly certain shaving one here (and in other such matchups) is correct.
Discard to hit the Rough/Tumble or Counterspells is something I may try in lieu of the Thorn effects to get a feel.
Thorn was, and still is, an amazing card in that match up.
The nature of RUG Delver (even UR Delver) makes it weak to taxing effects.
Thalia could make an appearance in my SB in the future. Im not 100% convinced.
Yeah I like the third Thorn as a beater in Thalia.
Another thought on a potential sideboard card to help against sweepers (not named Terminus)...what about Golgari Charm?
It's cheap and gives an answer to some of the biggest postboard cards (supreme verdict, rough/tumble, engineered explosives) and the destroy an enchantment mode is still relevant. The -1/-1 mayyyybe for the mirror and how you craft the game.
Edit: nevermind on Perish, forgot the can't be regen'd clause.
I'm not worried about Perish. I'm more concerned with Pyroclasm, Rough/Tumble, and Verdict. I find that I can beat Perish decks because they have a slower clock and fewer counterspells than decks that utilize the other board wipes.
I like the Golgari Charm idea. I'll test it.
It seems like people are struggling with RUG more now than in the past. Part of the reason for that is due to the inclusion of NO. RUG is problematic when they land a t1 delver with counters and bolts in hand. It's unlikely to be able to get NO past a good RUG player. I personally would board: -4 NO, -1 viridian shaman, +3 decay, +1 ooze, +1 arbor. The decays help deal with flipped delvers and grim lavamancer (if they have it). Sure you lose the game-ending ability of NO but you're favored if the game goes late anyways. Tight play and symbiote/visionary recursion should allow you to stabilize.
I don't think golgari charm will work for the same reasons we don't play counterspells. It's far too reactive in a deck that wants to tap out every turn.