[Deck] U/G Infect

vs DnT, i will sb this way.. i'll drop all permissions, insert in all removals possible, abuse sylvan library.

- (3dazes,2pierces, 3 fows, 1ponder)
+ (2 kgrips, 1 naturalize, 2 needles, 1 sylvan, 3 stps)

hierarchs are our best way vs tax and mana denial, good dnt players will leave revokers to keep pressure on our ramp (via manadorks). itll also support our very costly grips vs thalia/wingmare. kgrips are for usual equipments/ canonists/ revokers... mom cant protect them this time.. stps are for flyers, blighteds are our mvp here. berserks can act to as pseudo removal vs their creatures... one time my opp got greedy and attacked with his canonist, i berserked it, allowing me to chain pump spells on my turn : ). this is where needles/crop rots shine battling their hoard of ports and wastelands, needles will keep everthing fair too by locking their vials.

Interesting to see so many wanting to sideboard in +3 StP against D&T. I personally wouldn't for any of the reasons given here, but I have been wrong many times before, so who knows. That is part of what keeps Infect so interesting for me, that it isn't anywhere near figurered out yet. Who I am to say that Tom Ross is wrong, but I just don't see the need to have answers for "Mother or Runes to Phyrexian Revoker to Mirran Crusader". I would rather sideboard in +1 Berserk and ignore all of those. Nor do I think that their hate against us is creature based. Thalia is often better left unanswered, we covered that a while back. They have things like Ethersworn Canonist which can be annoying, but not a show stopper. I keep Flusterstorms in against StP and Council's Judgement. Flyers can be a problem against Inkmoth sometimes, but not so much that I want to sideboard in +3 StP, also because what if they have an active Mother.

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Originally Posted by Cartesian

Interesting to see so many wanting to sideboard in +3 StP against D&T. I personally wouldn't for any of the reasons given here, but I have been wrong many times before, so who knows. That is part of what keeps Infect so interesting for me, that it isn't anywhere near figurered out yet. Who I am to say that Tom Ross is wrong, but I just don't see the need to have answers for "Mother or Runes to Phyrexian Revoker to Mirran Crusader". I would rather sideboard in +1 Berserk and ignore all of those. Nor do I think that their hate against us is creature based. Thalia is often better left unanswered, we covered that a while back. They have things like Ethersworn Canonist which can be annoying, but not a show stopper. I keep Flusterstorms in against StP and Council's Judgement. Flyers can be a problem against Inkmoth sometimes, but not so much that I want to sideboard in +3 StP, also because what if they have an active Mother.

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In all my DT matchups opponents have been boarding out mothers after game one and with good reason IMO. They do almost nothing, and if they want to keep them in to protect against a POTENTIAL STP its all fine with me.
But my experience tells me that mothers typically go out, which is just hurray for the STP when they actual go in.

I agree with people boarding the STPs in, as they answer problematic dudes like thalia and mare. Often kicking vines is not an option with a thalia on the board, so getting rid of that EOT seems profitable. I tend to board in the STPs against any deck with problematic creatures, that being mana restricting, fast attacking, flying blockers, etc.

It is indeed interesting that infect is so flexible and can be run in so many different ways. Love it.
EDIT: i should note that i only board 2 STPS..

On another note, i ran the sylvan library main deck some time before the grixis showed up and am considering doing it again for future tournies, as red seem to have been taking a hit (i think mostly i will see it in RUG and URW delver).
The point of MBing it is that it so often goes in (in my meta the least) and it would leave room for an extra SB card, like a needle or something.
I generally just like the fact of having a card that the opponent SHOULD answer fast in addition to our fast combo kills. Anyone have tried MBing it too and would like to share oppinions?

If you take a look at Tom Ross' games you'll see he never side in a lot of cards. May be 4 maximum.
You should read this also :
http://www.starcitygames.com/article...To-Infect.html

Vs Death N Taxes, it seems to me that you have to keep your countermagic in to prevent both STP on your turn 2/3 kill or versus Stoneforge or the équipements.. Vial is very slow he may take them out.

Your first ins are going to be : k-grip and nature's claim, necropede if you play it (if this card exists It's mostly because of Thalia).

Thanks to everyone for the tips!

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Originally Posted by Adibou1er

If you take a look at Tom Ross' games you'll see he never side in a lot of cards. May be 4 maximum.
You should read this also :
http://www.starcitygames.com/article...To-Infect.html

Vs Death N Taxes, it seems to me that you have to keep your countermagic in to prevent both STP on your turn 2/3 kill or versus Stoneforge or the équipements.. Vial is very slow he may take them out.

Your first ins are going to be : k-grip and nature's claim, necropede if you play it (if this card exists It's mostly because of Thalia).

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I meant just that...

Without focusing on D&T or whatever... my question was: how many cards should we side usually?

Do you think we have to side in/out as little as possible to avoid distorting our deck?

Or may be sideboarding 7-10 cards a reasonable plan?

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Originally Posted by Lou Key

Thanks to everyone for the tips!



I meant just that...

Without focusing on D&T or whatever... my question was: how many cards should we side usually?

Do you think we have to side in/out as little as possible to avoid distorting our deck?

Or may be sideboarding 7-10 cards a reasonable plan?

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Siding in more than 4-5 cards is not good because you will almost always be the aggressive one.
The cards you ll side wil most of the time be used to destroy your opponent's hate. Or to switch useless cards to usefull ones.

You should definitely watch Tom Ross' videos.

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Originally Posted by Adibou1er

Siding in more than 4-5 cards is not good because you will almost always be the aggressive one.
The cards you ll side wil most of the time be used to destroy your opponent's hate. Or to switch useless cards to usefull ones.

You should definitely watch Tom Ross' videos.

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This is vague and uninformative. Could you elaborate? Maybe some links to match footage for reference and context would be beneficial.

Of course Tom Ross is a very skilled Infect player. That said, he's playing the straight U/G version of the deck, which has much fewer sideboard options than a white splash. Against some matchups (RUG, BUG, Reanimator), I find myself bringing in 3 StP's and 2 Rest in Peace, which is 5 white cards alone. That plus any counter spells / hate cards I board in tends to put me at around 7-9 cards boarded in, depending on the exact matchup.

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Originally Posted by Adibou1er

If you take a look at Tom Ross' games you'll see he never side in a lot of cards. May be 4 maximum.
You should read this also :
http://www.starcitygames.com/article...To-Infect.html

Vs Death N Taxes, it seems to me that you have to keep your countermagic in to prevent both STP on your turn 2/3 kill or versus Stoneforge or the équipements.. Vial is very slow he may take them out.

Your first ins are going to be : k-grip and nature's claim, necropede if you play it (if this card exists It's mostly because of Thalia).

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Against Death and Taxes, I certainly wouldn't keep in all of our counter magic (maybe just some FoW's and Daze OtP?) Between Vial, Cavern of Souls, and SFM activated ability, the deck has so many ways to circumvent our permission spells. As an aside, I have never seen a Death and Taxes player board out Vials against Infect. The ability to cheat in uncounterable creatures at instant speed is a huge problem for us (Thalia, Canonist, Avenger for blocks, SFM for uncounterable Jitte tutor, Flickerwisp for flying blocker and to remove pumped threat, Wingmare.)

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Originally Posted by Jesture

As an aside, I have never seen a Death and Taxes player board out Vials against Infect. The ability to cheat in uncounterable creatures at instant speed is a huge problem for us (Thalia, Canonist, Avenger for blocks, SFM for uncounterable Jitte tutor, Flickerwisp for flying blocker and to remove pumped threat, Wingmare.)

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To expand on this. The reason they don't take out the Aether Vials is because its the best way for the deck to deploy threats while also using Wastelands/Ports. They're just so much more efficient with Vial than without that I don't think they can ever reasonably cut it.

went 2-2 last saturday on a mini legacy.
im still very postive with the deck, just got a bit unlucky i guess. it was a "who gets the better top deck" day that day!

0-2 shardless bug
he drew waste when i was bout to kill him next turn. game 2 wherein he got adecay (upon probing) i got a glistener, he hymned... got my crop rot and inkmoth, never drew any pierces and supporting infectors before and after that.

2-0 ooops, all spells
was able to get the permissions i needed early on, game2 i was fast enough to assemble my combo.

2-1 omnitell (splash red)
glistener turn 1, he pondered whether fow'ing it.. probing him turn2 all he got were cantrips. it was over early. ive got back up fows too to wreck my pumps.
g2 he was able to show to omni, i got krosan grip, but he got priority still and was able to pyroclasm my glistener/2nobles..i struggled to get an infector, he topdecked emrakul after he played another show omni a few more turns.
g3 wherein i got 2 glisteners, but was too slow with no pumps at site.. he was gaining momentum and successfully showed emrakul, no cards at hand.. i went to show blighted, he was at 4 infect... i topdecked invi, 3 crits attacked him 2 got in and +4 via invi was ftw!

1-2 dark mav (very winnable matchup)
he decayed my bligthed turn 3 but i got vines, then went for the BImmense/exalted kaboom next turn.
lack of lands... just lack of lands to protect my crits...
again i was land light and never drew supporting manas, jitte slew me while i got 2 grips at my hand and 2 manas only : (

i played the white splash in the sb, the 3 stps never showed in my dark mav matchup that couldve saved me game3 when he was equipping. very unlucky.
bug control is tough, but winnable. if he had never gotten my kill pieces, i couldve gotten another round.
any unfair again, from my point is a positive matchup. we call in for more help in the sb, while they struggle to assess how theyre gonna beat our fast clock.

vs any bug variant, here's what ive boarded in...
minus (3fows, 1 crop, 1 noble, 1ponder, 2 bimmense)
plus (1pierce, 2 needles, 3 stps, 1 rip, 1 sylvan)
i put in stps for his strixes, needles for waste/lilli..permissions for disrupts/charms.. i never dropped dazes coz im to the play..

any suggestions on my boarding vs BUG will help, i'll be on a major tourney come sunday, thanks guys!

Thanks for posting.
Shame you lost to shardless and mav.

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Originally Posted by poxy14

vs any bug variant, here's what ive boarded in...
minus (3fows, 1 crop, 1 noble, 1ponder, 2 bimmense)
plus (1pierce, 2 needles, 3 stps, 1 rip, 1 sylvan)
i put in stps for his strixes, needles for waste/lilli..permissions for disrupts/charms.. i never dropped dazes coz im to the play..

any suggestions on my boarding vs BUG will help, i'll be on a major tourney come sunday, thanks guys!

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As Ross also states, the BUG delver variant is less problematic than the red versions due to lack of 1cmc removal.
If you have a needle on waste, you are almost set. Vines help with DKs and invis vs. disfigures.
Beware of goglari charms tho and dont over commit.

Hymn is annoying and so is lily but they are slow and run into daze and pierce.
Hold on to crop rot for pendelhaven as protection against mentioned disfigure and charm.
STPs are mostly for their delvers as it blocks 2/3 of our dudes. Goyfs if large enough can go plowing too.
Sylvan is king, naturally - and if you fear facing many bug variants, you could maindeck it too. it does grow their goyf, and with liliana it can potentially become a 6/7, but then again, STP dont care about that. Its still a sizable threat tho.
I board 2 STPs and two RIPs and take in both, maybe 1 more RIP for you?

I think the matchup is fine, but you will need to play tight still.

thanks neffy! i currently have 3 gyhate (1 surgical/1graf/1rip)
i have some reanimators here in my meta, rip is just too slow vs them so 1 might be ok for me already.
with rip too in sb, im withdrawing 2 bimmense, which makes me a bit slow if im totally relying on invi/vines as my only pumps..
playing slow vs shardless is playing their game plan.. theyre just gonna get more hate eventually when they neutralize our early kill..

if it shows up a lot, i will main deck the sylvan and probably cut a probe or ponder or bimmense..
i might shove up my RIP to 2, and just battle reanimators on the permission war with another copy of fluster..
more practice before sunday : )

Anyone have thoughts on possibly including (MD or SB) a Dromoka's Command in the white splash version? I'm considering it because the card seems like possible blowout/major value in the right scenarios. I'll test it Wednesday and let y'all know how it goes.

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Originally Posted by Svyelunite

Anyone have thoughts on possibly including (MD or SB) a Dromoka's Command in the white splash version? I'm considering it because the card seems like possible blowout/major value in the right scenarios. I'll test it Wednesday and let y'all know how it goes.

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First thoughts, it seems phenomenal against Burn, which isn't a matchup I've had trouble with in the past. The fight mode seems like it won't be used much without the +1/+1 counter, so I'd imagine the command gets used most often as a counterspell against a lightning/forked bolt that adds a +1/+1 counter. Biggest enchantments in the format are Counterbalance, Blood Moon, Eidolon, and maybe Manabond/Exploration, which aren't particularly strong against us. So all in all, an instant that's cheap and flexible, reminiscent of the toolbox characteristics of Crop Rotation. Differences are it's slightly harder to cast and has slightly larger range of value. I feel it's more often a dead card as its not terribly useful when behind, but it's ability to break parity and close out games is on par or greater than Crop Rotation's in the right situations.

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Originally Posted by Svyelunite

Anyone have thoughts on possibly including (MD or SB) a Dromoka's Command in the white splash version? I'm considering it because the card seems like possible blowout/major value in the right scenarios. I'll test it Wednesday and let y'all know how it goes.

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I'd be curious how you find this, it's a card I've considered but I didn't think it was quite good enough. It certainly has it's uses though, so I'm curious your thoughts on it. I could possibly see it taking the MD slot of something like Stifle perhaps?

Has anyone here had success with 3 Berserks main deck?

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Originally Posted by Svyelunite

Anyone have thoughts on possibly including (MD or SB) a Dromoka's Command in the white splash version? I'm considering it because the card seems like possible blowout/major value in the right scenarios. I'll test it Wednesday and let y'all know how it goes.

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innovating is the fun part in deck discussions, that's what it keeps it working.
anyways, since we rely heavy on blue... before DC, i would consider 2 cards before it.. (everything is 2cc)
simic charm = DC cant protect our inkmoth vs wasteland, serves as pseudo crit removal too, DC however has enchantment removal.
reality ripple = very tricky tempo card, even on a lone crit, it can battle lilli, saves inkmoths vs wastelands, saves crits vs mass removal...

im also thinking of going down to 2 stps, and replace 1 of these... i shld finalize my list on friday after a few more tests..
thanks Svyelunite! do keep us posted on ur DC's test.

Everyone. I was thinking about side out maye 1 or 2 glistener elf(on the draw) against matchups like death and taxes and other creatures decks. Cause glistener will never pass any other creature (except with pump+berserk).

Anyone here do a elf side out ?

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Originally Posted by vermelho

Everyone. I was thinking about side out maye 1 or 2 glistener elf(on the draw) against matchups like death and taxes and other creatures decks. Cause glistener will never pass any other creature (except with pump+berserk).
Anyone here do a elf side out ?

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nope, any fair deck will side in removals vs us, so we need more infectors as possible, coz the plan here is to side out mostly our permissions, replacing them with anti artifacts, needles...stuff like that.

a turn 1 glistener, presents pressure to any crit they drop. coz we have pumps.. exalted.. or the tricky crop to pendel manuever.

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Originally Posted by vermelho

Everyone. I was thinking about side out maye 1 or 2 glistener elf(on the draw) against matchups like death and taxes and other creatures decks. Cause glistener will never pass any other creature (except with pump+berserk).

Anyone here do a elf side out ?

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Yeah. Against non-blue creature decks, you're typically going to see something like Deathrite or MoM on t1, both very bad creatures to attack into with Elf. Non-blue decks don't keep hands without t1 or t2 plays, unless something goes horribly wrong and they find themselves mulling down to 5 or so, at which point the hypotheticals aren't really important to deck building.

On next sunday i'll play an legacy open with 5k dolars of prize. My list is very close to the used by zachary in the last scg. But in my meta have lot of blood moons and I really need to use a basic forest.
And my sideboard I need to look again. I'll post my sb here in a few hours.