I haven't read this since.. 2012. I'll add it to my list of updates.Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry
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I haven't read this since.. 2012. I'll add it to my list of updates.Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry
@ Gobolord: so what about your puzzles?
Hey chiefs!
So I've had some nice results recently, as well as some thoughts on how to proceed with the deck. I got to the finals of a Vegas GPT with winstagator list; 5 rounds of swiss + top 4 (scooped to give a friend the byes, got a goyf and linvala in my prize packs so it all worked out :laugh: ) Here's the list:
Lands 20
4 Cavern
3 Wastelands
6 Fetches
4 Mountains
1 Taiga
2 Pendelhaven
Artifacts: 7
4 Vial
3 Chrome Mox
Creatures: 29
4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
3 Piledriver
2 Chieftain
2 Gempalm
2 Warren Instigator
2 Warchief (couldn't find a 3rd chieftain before the event, so had to play a second warchief. Not optimal, but worked out)
1 Kiki
1 Siege-Gang
1 Stingscourger
1 Sharpshooter
1 Subterranean Scout (part of my testing, seems really good for getting Piledriver, Lackey, or Winstigator in during the late game during clogged board states)
1 Tin street Hooligan
Instants: 3
3 Tarfire
Enchantments: 1
1 Sylvan Library
Sideboard
2 Blood Moon
2 Surgical
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Pithing Needle
1 REB
1 Krenko
1 Chalice
1 Relic
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Karkas
Don't have much to report other than my results unfortunately, I lost my notes and the event was about a week ago. My matches were High Tide (1-2), Burn (2-1), BUG Midrange (2-1), 4C Loam (2-1), I.D. into top 4, D&T (2-0). Instigator was great, gonna start playing 3 in my list now. I also very nearly won my match against High Tide, I just was extremely unfortunate with the position of connecting with 2 instigators and dropping nothing. Against Burn I was a very very lucky man; finding chalice in my opening hand both game 2 and 3 won me the match for sure, though game 2 did lead the somewhat silly circumstance where we both discarded to hand size with a bunch of stuff stuck in hand. Kiki crushed the match against BUG, copying matrons and ringleaders like crazy while he was stuck on lands. Against 4C Loam I got really aggressive and killed him before toxic deluge got online, and wastelands kept him off balance. D&T was an absolute stomping; I don't think I've won a match so convincingly against them in a long time.
I'm still convinced that this is a better matchup than is listed on the primer; I am rarely unhappy to sit down against a D&T pilot. I've also found that the best way to win the matchup is just try to aggressively go after their creatures. I've won games with my opponent going t2 jitte with it sitting on the board by just killing every creature that attempts to equip it. The only truly scary thing in the matchup is a SoFI. Every bit of removal we have is extremely potent against them, and we outgrind them even through flickerwisp + recruiter shenanigans (which is quite vulnerable to any bit of removal).
Moving forward, I'm gonna gonna get that 3rd chief in there, and then a 3rd instigator. Also gonna maindeck the Krenko because he's the man and still pulls his weight in a lot of matchups. Could be a 2nd siege-gang, but I like his utility against decks like Eldrazi. He's also an extremely fast clock with chieftain on board.
I'd also like to hear what the consensus (if any) is regarding some of the newer decks that have popped up in the format lately:
BUG Midrange: This one is hard to categorize because of the lack of unification in the lists. Do they play 4 Goyfs? 4 Hymns? A bunch of TNNs and a Jitte? These things radically change the matchup. However, I think that the BOM shows this one to be somewhat unfavorable for the classic lists (though piledriver-heavy lists should have a better time), and slightly favored for the Instigator ones. I think the best way to combat these kinda decks are Gobolord's approach; Carpet of Flowers and Blood Moon are both insane against them. If you can get ahead on mana in some way, you're much more favored to win the game.
4C Control, aka "the Czech Pile": I have yet to actually play this matchup, but I have to imagine this is a favorable one. In a matchup where it's all about who can outgrind the other, I think we win that battle due to sheer card numbers. You should only really lose if the deck doesn't function properly, or if your ringleaders blank on you. The only card that really scares me in their deck is K-Command, which can create a nice 2-1 for them, and can crucially blow up a vial. However, their shaving on abrupt decays makes it much more likely that vials will get to 2-3 counters, so not all value is lost. The classic list seems more favored here as well, since you can really mess with their horrible mana base with more wastes and ports. This doesn't even take into account how badly they lose to blood moon (though some eschew wastes for a few basics, so keep that in mind). This is my source for this archetype by the way: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetyp...-control#paper
Food Chain: An older deck, but new combos involving Walking Ballista. This matchup seems pretty bad for us, since we'll probably struggle with killing them quickly, and we can't meaningfully interact with the combo. It seems a lot like the aluren matchup, but worse. Does anyone have any advice for this one? Blood Moon once again seems great, but other than that not much comes to mind.
If you noticed the common theme; Blood Moon is just amazing right now. So many decks die to it, and with chrome moxen you can jam them out even earlier.
My sideboard that I'm ideally working towards, though I don't have all the cards yet;
3 Blood Moon/2-1 Split with Moon and Magus
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
Other considerations are Relic, Karakas, and REB.
Are there any other newcomers to top tables that I should have mentioned? Thoughts on my evaluations?
I'm updating the Primer with 4C control, aka infinite kill spells.
I did some play testing against it the other day and found out the Kolaghan's Command interaction was far more powerful than I thought it might end up being. As it's just a control deck at heart I feel great about the match-up if I have a Cavern of Soul's in play and a Ringleader on the stack, but that does mean AEther Vial died a few more times than I wanted to see. I tested out a few games where I boarded out the Vials, just to see, and I would not recommend doing so. They had the affect of making my opponent use their cantrips different, which is valuable. The deck loses a TON of value when you drop some grave hate on it, as all of their Snapcaster Mages and Commands lose a ton of their deck's intended value. I'm looking to get a second Siege-Gang up in my deck, as the meta is getting more and more fair bombs get better and better. Anyone else done anything against the deck since I last mentioned it? It is rather new.
Hi Olaf,
I have quite a long time experience against 4C deck, because my Team mate is a very experienced BURG player and probably the best in my country. However, I would consider this match-up like favorable for us. Why? Because of the low number of creatures they play (13-15) and due to their very shaky mana base. He explained me that Ports and Wastelands are giving him a really tough time and he doesn't like at all seeing 3 creatures or more on our side. They may have Kolaghan's Command, so what? We have Siege-Gang Commander. That's why I also run 2 of them at the moment, because there are a lot of BUG/4C decks around. I have the impression that it improves our deck greatly. It compensates all the removals we had to face early game by bringing 4 goblins late game which, most of the time, is a win. It also makes the fear of casting a Piledriver very real.
Their Kolaghan's spell is a beauty, and on of their best removal, but it's not that easy for them to cast it. In a 4C list, since they usually only have like 2 red sources, which is very few, they will have a hard time to cast Kolaghan's or Lightning Bolt if you systematically cut their R.
Then, there are lists running 2-3 Snapcaster Mage. Which means that their cantrips and removals are doubled or tripled. And that is really scary. So yeah, against 4C, the GY is a problem. Personally, I board GY hate like Relic against this MU to starve DRS, but also Snapcaster. Some list even run a Reanimate MD to steal their opponent's dead creature.
My experience is that we need to answer DRS as soon as possible, so that they cannot fix their color in the early turns or drain our life after. If we can allow it, we have to port or waste their single color sources. We probably won't be able to cut blue or black, but we can cut red or green. With a Vial in play, we should quietly take advantage of the board. My MVPs are Gempalm, Ringleader, Vial and, post sideboard, Relic of Progenitus.
Hi there mogg fanatics,
looks like the meta had a relative fast shake recently, fortunately i can count on many goblin tacticians here to try to understand how we can adapt to it in the best way ;)
I didnt tried the 4c Czech-Pile MU yet, but yes it looks like a(nother) not very easy one.
I think the more removals+snapcaster they see the harder it would be for us. Agree with furbirr: mana denial and wise use of our removals are probably the key here.
Also agree with you about SGCommander, he's very powerfull and definitely worth to play a second copy over our legends. Personally, his main downside is the "weakness" to stifle decks that are pretty present in my meta. Having a SGC -etb trigger stifled hurts a lot and this is the main reason i still run a 1-1 split between him and one legend.
I was thinking about a kind of crazy deck building idea recently. Probably it's a bad idea, i haven't tried it out yet, but i'll try few match as soon as i can.
As a lot of you wrote recently, mana acceleration it's very important right now because our opponent are heavily into that and many time we just have to join the train to try not to be outclassed. Vail produce virtual mana that is crucial for us, but with the rise of BG decks we cannot really count on it too many times (Kolgan Commands will just make it worse)
So Moxes are the way for us since we have no other way to ramp other than vial. I like a lot Chrome Mox but i feel like it's downside it's too heavy some times (expecially with mulligan at 5 or lower). We have to sacrifice valuable resource to it without a way to recoverthem (except for matron and ringleader) and some times we have to pitch a card without knowing what deck our opponent is playing and can happen that we pitch a crucial card for a specific MU without even knowing it (Shatter goblins, MWM in grindy MU, Stingcourger against fatties, sharpshooter ecc..)
So i was thinking about Mox Diamond + Crucible of the World (something like 3-3 split).
The main downsides i see are to lower down the goblin count to 30 (assuming 20 lands-4vial-3mox-3crucible), to have a non goblin-non aggressive 3 drop (EDIT and of course DRS :tongue:) but it can be great in ramp (mox+multiple use of fetchlands), increasing mana denial plan (recursive wastelands and ports), help fixing colors for BGW splashes, and force our opponent to play GY hate loosing focus on our main strategy.
I know probably it's a bad idea, i know probably you won't like it, but i'm attracted to it atm and just want to share it and see what you think.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...ion-2017-04-18
maybe..Quote:
The set features four new tribal-themed, 100-card decks including 56 all-new Magic cards legal in Vintage and Legacy.
If you were to go down the road of mox diamond + land recursion, you might want to consider using Loam rather than crucible. This is making me think of a possible Jund list with Wort, Boggart Auntie? You'd probably have to run 4 tarfires out of necessity because such a list would be extremely vulnerable to DRS. But it does sound sweet, and I'd be interested in hearing your results.Quote:
Originally Posted by menph
The particular list I was testing against had 3 snaps. It seemed rather good in there.
But of course, Surgical Extraction shines much more than Relic against 4C Control "infinite kill spell". It makes their spells more "finite".Quote:
Originally Posted by Olaf Forkbeard
Check the lists. It plays 1-2 bolts, 1-2 commands, 1-2 pushes. It's a literal pile. Surgical does almost nothing and dilutes our deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourbirr
For people thinking about mox diamond, please take a look at successful list that run them (lands, loam, even pox) and see count how many lands they play. You just cannot do it with just 20 lands.
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Hi ScatmanX,Quote:
Originally Posted by ScatmanX
Just to avoid confusion, I meant not to run Surgical Main Deck, but in the sideboard. I was referring to the Czech Pile deck of its creator Tomas Mar, see here. It's an old list, but we can see how many juicy targets there are to extract.
true that. the lowest out there is tezzerator that play from 22 to 24 lands + moxesQuote:
Originally Posted by ScatmanX
Exactly. Bringing in Surgical is really bad. It never really provides card advantage, it's a horrible topdeck, doesn't sinergise with any of our strategies, it dilutes our deck, it damages us. Not even if they were running 4 of like most bugs or grixis are, Surgical would notbe worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourbirr
I'm inclined to agree. Broad effects look like they can generate effective card advantage, but surgical would likely just be a 1 for 1 of your super savvy. Basically it generates tempo, which I'm not sure we are in the market for in the match.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScatmanX
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I think it would be funny to surgical one of their threats. I'd board it in on the draw if you have too many cards that you want to board out. Also, main deck Sharpshooter can help clear most of their board if you give it haste, but I wouldn't keep it in game 2.
On a different topic:
I have recently been struggling with unblockable damage piling up (any unanswered combination of Delver + DRS + TNN + Bolts). Something like T1 DRS into T2 TNN gets me really hard. This is why I love my Carpet of Flowers so much, as they allow me to put up a race myself - and thats the only real strategy I have so far: win the race.
Is there anything else that you think we can do? Do you think overloading on removal spells is a good idea? I'm looking at some combination of 3-4 Tarfire + 2-3 Warren Weirding here.
I also have been thinking that perhaps we've been underutilizing our removal suite, and increasing the number of slots we dedicate to it might be correct. This does (of course) impact our combo matchups, but it's not like we win those without very specific hate anyway (though I will say I managed to win game 1 against belcher today :laugh: )Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
I also think that regarding removal, it's important we have a nice mix. Gempalm is still our strongest removal spell, but not being able to kill things without a board makes it very slow sometimes. Hence the need for tarfire. Warren Weirding seems really nice when we're in TNN-land, and Sneak and Show is the most popular combo deck. Looking at the list that got 21st at the SCG event, there are the 2 maindeck WW (with another in the board), 4 gempalms, but only 1 tarfire. I'd be tempted to change that to a 3-2 split because there aren't any MWM in the list to power up the gempalms.
The problem therefore is; What on earth do we cut on? My thoughts on this is usually lords, since we can't make the curve too high by cutting on 2 drops. Shaving finishers leaves us a little too soft in the late game: we need to be able to turn the corner with a slammed Siege-Gang, Kiki, or Krenko. The utility goblins like Prospector, Sharpshooter, and Tuktuk all fulfill vital roles in my opinion (with the least impactful being Prospector, provided you're not running MWM)
It's a tough puzzle and I'm really unsure what the answer is. But I think increasing removal slots somehow is definitely something to try. I'll tinker around and see what I come up with.
As an aside: Who has stuck with/tried the Winstigator version following the BOM? I've got a hybrid thing going on that I like a decent bit. Still miss my MWM and Prospector, but at least I'm playing ports. I'm quite tempted to go with the heavy black splash like the SCG event player, with multiple thoughtseizes and therapies.
If you're using carpet, I think you should have at least 1-2 gempalms. With a carpet out, you should be able to get enough gobs for gempalm and make use of the card advantage. I don't know how good warren weirding is, but only seems better than gempalm against a turn 1 deathrite or when they only have goyfs, TTNs, and/or Leovolds, which rarely happens.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
In the black version, why no main deck 1 off Earwig Squad?
It has a decent body, can f*ck combo game 1, can remove hard to remove threats (TNN) or remove removal.