[DTB] Vial Goblins

It has been a long time since I posted but I just had to say something here...

Piledriver weak? Tarfire bad but Mogg is fine? In what reality?

1) In addition to what Lukatron has already said the piledriver is the only card in the deck with the ability to trade 1 for 1 against a creature bigger than 2/2
Yes, he has to be attacking and he needs other goblins to be attacking too, but, this is goblins. Goblins don't plan on winning games by playing only 1 or 2 creatures at a time and if you are not attacking, you are not likely winning.

2)Piledrive being worthless by himself... true... I can give you that, lets move on...

Oh wait, so is Lackey (no goblins in hand or removal to clear the way and he does nothing)...
And Warchief (again, no goblins in hand and he is a 3 drop bear)...
Gempalm (almost worthless)

In fact, I would say that almost every card in this deck is worthless if it is forced to stand alone. The only exceptions being SGC, Kiki and maybe Sharpshooter, which are also the 3 of the 4 goblins (4th being Mogg Fan.) that have a life outside of a goblin deck.

3) I have always said Mogg Fan. was a waste and so I always run 4 bolts in what would be his slots. There are to many things that can be dropped on turn one that Mogg cant kill that can cause problems: Hyppie, Isamaru, Kird Ape just to name the first 3 that come to mind.
Friends have long told me that I shouldn't run bolt, but I still have more goblins in my R/w build (and R/g, R/b, and mono red builds) than almost anyone else.
Tarfire fixes the problem. I get shock instead of bolt and it is a goblin. I prsonally would have preferred an incinerate that was a goblin (3 damage for 1R) but that I think would be to much to ask for. Clearly Mogg is and has long been the weakest link in the deck.

4) As for all the new cards all I can say is WOW! It doesnt matter if you prefer R, R/w, R/g, or R/b, there are a ton of new toys to play with and try out. The point is I dont think there will be one clear cut R/? deck that will be the best. G gives you a 7/7 that can be dropped in off of a lackey on turn 2? White has a card that gives +0/+1 that counts as a goblin (not my style but someone out there will run it) and a 4/4 life gainer (who also counts as a goblin). And we have a ton of good new options in black, many of which have the potential to ruin someone's day.

Better yet, go on and continue saying how bad this card and that card is. It will just make it easier for me to blindside someone with a card coming out of left field

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Originally Posted by lukatron2

have you ever actually PLAYED the deck before? seriously

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He has. Probably more than you.

Piledriver isn't the strongest threat in the deck. It's a fast clock if left unchecked and is great off the top in conjunction with a warchief and some other critters already on the board, however it's a horrible topdeck after a wrath. A 1/2 for 2 isn't rather impressive on it's own, and could probably be replaced by another 2-3 drop. How often does he turn into a 3/2, swinging because you lost your lackey or mogg and the only other critter in play is a matron or warchief while you're waiting for another land to play a ringer? He's strong, but he is very swingy. I like him, and I'm not sure he's an appropriate slot for dropping, but it's not like he's THE cornerstone of the deck and removing him would make the deck fall apart.

And, as far as racing combo, in certain situations I'd rather slow down and disrupt them 'til I can win instead of trying to race. With a black splash to allow for Mad Auntie, the potential Neo-Duress, and Cabal Therapy as well as other slower options for victory (Living Death or Bidding perhaps?), I could see a build not having PD in it or boarding out PD often to bring in hate and disruption.

As far as TBs comment, it is one of the weakest links as it does nothing alone and requires friends where as SGC ends games. 4 creatures and a damage source for a 1 card investment in 5 mana (or less with chief or vial) can end games and help vastly recover after a wrath effect.... MVP all the way.

Goblin Lackey is the most broken. Goblin Warchief is the most essential. Goblin Matron is the most versatile. Goblin Ringleader is card advantage. Siege Gang Commander essentially acts as card advantage. Mogg Fanatic gives the deck more of a curve, along with giving you combat tricks and removal. Don't be fooled by shiny objects and big numbers; Goblin Piledriver is there as sort of an afterthought, like "Well, shit. I'm running a metric fuckton of the dudes anyways, mise well run him too."

Goblin Piledriver isn't the reason War Chief is such a threat. Goblin War Chief is the reason Goblin War Chief such a threat, Piledriver just happens to be there. Yeah, turn three wins are nice, but if Goblins suddenly didn't have them, I wouldn't care all that much. Goblins isn't a balls out aggro deck. It's a midrange aggro deck that's given up speed for versatility and resilience. I'm not advocating cutting Goblin Piledriver. I'm simply stating that it's the weakest goblin in the deck.

Also, for what it's worth, I've been playing Goblins in some form or another since 2003, when it X-0'ed the standard portion at worlds. I helped Godzilla make the refined Vintange Restricted FCG list and made changes to Landstill domination era list before they were even proposed on the source (Jitte, Port, splash color), that helped pave the way for a Goblins dominated metagame. I've won or made top 8 in more tournaments than I care to remember, beating bad match-ups the entire way. So while I won't claim to be an expert on the deck, I will clam to be an authority. I know what I'm talking about.

/end e-peen stroke.

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And, as far as racing combo, in certain situations I'd rather slow down and disrupt them 'til I can win instead of trying to race. With a black splash to allow for Mad Auntie, the potential Neo-Duress, and Cabal Therapy as well as other slower options for victory (Living Death or Bidding perhaps?), I could see a build not having PD in it or boarding out PD often to bring in hate and disruption.

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I'm also really interested in seeing how good a slower, slightly controlling version of R/b goblins would be. Therapy is awesome, and Bidding is the nut high. I'm actually hoping to show up to the big tourney this weekend and playtest a little bit.

If anyone thinks they can design a Goblins deck without 2cc creatures, please PM it to me.

rofl

No one-liners in the LMF. And if you MUST make them, they'd better be good. This was not. - Bardo

So you guys are saying that just because piledriver can only be huge, that it is bad? It may not be great alone, but it still wins games. Most of the time playing against Wombat, the only time I win is with piledriver. He also speeds up the clock against combo. Being fast is still important.

The goblins I have seen have not really done anything for me. Nothing special looks like it warrants inclusion over Tin Street or Cabal Therapies.

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Originally Posted by Jak.

So you guys are saying that just because piledriver can only be huge, that it is bad? It may not be great alone, but it still wins games. Most of the time playing against Wombat, the only time I win is with piledriver. He also speeds up the clock against combo. Being fast is still important.

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No, it's not bad, it just makes Piledriver the weakest in the deck. You know how you determine the powerful cards in magic? The ones that do things that few, if any other cards do. Goblin Piledriver turns sideways. That's it. Mon's Goblin Raiders turns sideways too. Within this deck, Piledriver is only marginally better, and that's only because he gets that little bit of added synergy because of his ability.

Funny, though, the only games I can remember winning against Wombat is laying out two or three dudes, forcing them to deal with those dudes, then playing out two or three more. Rarely did I race them.

Speaking of racing. You don't race combo. You just don't, because you can't. Except Solidarity, but that deck has always sucked anyways.

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Originally Posted by Jak.

So you guys are saying that just because piledriver can only be huge, that it is bad? It may not be great alone, but it still wins games. Most of the time playing against Wombat, the only time I win is with piledriver. He also speeds up the clock against combo. Being fast is still important.

The goblins I have seen have not really done anything for me. Nothing special looks like it warrants inclusion over Tin Street or Cabal Therapies.

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No. I'm not saying it's bad. I'm saying that it's not the "OMFGWTFBBQKEKEKKEKEKEK MVP!!!11oneexclamationzzz!" card. Yes, it CAN be huge and it CAN destroy your opponent in short order. No argument there. But in a growing age where mass removal and spot removal are at a premium, Piledriver isn't as strong as it used to be. Decks run fast sweepers and E.Plagues to combat ETW and Bridge tokens, or in Kiki versions of breakfast, a bunch of Sky Hussars on top of already running as many pinpoint removal effects (STP, Burn, Black removal) to combat Tarmogoyf and Goblins takes one helluva hit in collateral damage. You can't expect to crush game 1 and then try to overwhelm with anti-hate or board tech to eek out game 2 or 3 anymore since players are packing an abundance of hate maindeck and that forces you to run less goblins to try and squeeze in an anti-hate card or two in your own MD. All of these factors make Piledriver decidedly weaker than he used to be. Yes, he can still be a turn 2/3 game finisher. More often than not he's a chump blocker, traded for a weaker creature so goyfs can smash your face, or swinging for a lame and unimpressive 1 to 3 damage while your important goblins get burned or sent farming. Mass removal makes a topdeck piledriver a nearly dead draw, as he alone will not improve your gamestate.

Piledriver and Fanatic are decidedly weaker than other cards in the deck. Matron is basically any of the goblins you need, Ringleader is obviously CA, Lackey is your nuts cheat, and warchief makes your entire army better. Siege-gang Commander is, along side ringleader, one of the best draws you could have after a wrath effect since it puts multiple threats on the board, where Piledriver beats for 1.

Is it good? Yes. Can it be stellar? Yes. Is it often beating for 1 or 3 with a matron along side it while your opponent removes anything of importance and proceeds to garner creature dominance through Goyfs/Superior Threats or assembling a combo to flat out win? Sadly, yes. He's a good card, but he's not as good as other cards in this deck. If I was looking for a place to start cutting a few cards to make room for things like Therapy, this reported Neo-Duress, or whatever... Piledriver would be on the top of my list to cut a few copies.


edit- Mike posted as I was, but I think this is still valid.

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Speaking of racing. You don't race combo. You just don't, because you can't. Except Solidarity, but that deck has always sucked anyways.

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G1 I try.

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Funny, though, the only games I can remember winning against Wombat is laying out two or three dudes, forcing them to deal with those dudes, then playing out two or three more. Rarely did I race them.

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I wouldn't try and race them. I would hold back and keep 2 Piledrivers and a warchief in hand. Then wait till they wrath or something. Then vial and play them out. Now it didn't happen a lot, but whatever.
Most of the time I would do as you said.

I still think he should not be cut. That is what we were originally discussing, no? He does a lot for the deck. The deck is still tribal, and if you have no gobs in hand or play, I doubt a goblin lackey or mogg fanatic would be a great top deck.

I think TeenieBopper's points are highly valid, whether I agree or not. Piledriver is at best one of the worst three goblins (The others for consideration being Gempalm Incinerator due to it sucking hard against some decks, and Siege-Gang Commander for being slow/hard to cast in many situations.)

The fact that he's one of the worst three goblins in the deck, however, does not by any means make him easy to replace. Mad Auntie is good, and should probably be run in some quantity in the event of a black splash, but it has some stiff competitions in the Goblins that are already present.

However, I don't think Piledriver needs to be cut to warrant the black splash.

Tin-Street Hooligan is probably the obvious first cut if you go B/R with no green. I think in the spot of the Tin-Streets go the Mad Aunties.

Wort, Boggart Auntie might go in place of one and only one Siege-Gang Commander. You never want to clog up your hand with early SGC's (unless you get a Lackey hit), and Wort can recur the single one you Matron for.

I don't advocate the Sliver-esque Mad Auntie/Goblin King plan at all for one large reason. Slivers has success with it because it can make all its group bulkers untargetable. Goblins can't do that. Therefore you're opening yourself up to savage problems by counting on power and toughness in certain situations only to walk into instant speed removal.

And for those of you keeping track, Mogg Fanatic is incredible. It doesn't get cut. Especially considering how savage it is against Ichorid, anything packing Confidant, the mirror, etc. And rumor has it that it kills this card called Cephalid Illusionist that's showing up in some janky deck called Cephalid Breakfast, but that's probably not important.*

*(Footnotes explaining that I'm being facetious are probably in order lest I somehow get flamed in the LMF.)

I believe the correct build of Vial Goblins to maintain competitiveness in the current Legacy meta game is to add both green and black. I believe black is needed in the main deck to support cabal therapy which is at least some discard against combo, the deck's weakest matchup. Currently, I'm cutting the 2 main deck tin street hooligans, sharpshooter, and 1 Goblin Matron to make sure for the 4 cabal therapies.

I do however realize that the goblin matron is a very debatable goblin to cut, but I believe its down to either 1 matron or 1 piledriver from the main deck. I just like the power behind piledriver when combined with warchief and other goblins.

I believe the green splash is still needed for krosan grip in the board, due to the existence of engineered plague that decks do still have in their side boards. I would really like to only splash the color black, but I must have a reasonable out for plague and humilty that is in existence here in Syracuse.

I know that by splashing 2 different colors it does weaken the mana base, but with all the combo decks around I believe this is a compromise that has to be made.

What do some of the others think about the proper build of goblins in order to survive in today's metagame?

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Originally Posted by CorruptedAngel

Piledriver isn't the strongest threat in the deck. It's a fast clock if left unchecked and is great off the top in conjunction with a warchief and some other critters already on the board, however it's a horrible topdeck after a wrath. A 1/2 for 2 isn't rather impressive on it's own, and could probably be replaced by another 2-3 drop. How often does he turn into a 3/2, swinging because you lost your lackey or mogg and the only other critter in play is a matron or warchief while you're waiting for another land to play a ringer?

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1) You should almost never have 0 goblins in hand especially if you're playing against a deck with wrath effects.
2) A 3/2 pro blue for 1R is appropriately costed, while far more fair than Goyf.

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Mon's Goblin Raiders turns sideways too. Within this deck, Piledriver is only marginally better, and that's only because he gets that little bit of added synergy because of his ability.

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Wow, this is possible the worst analogy I've ever seen. Unless you plan on getting wrathed every turn Piledriver will almost always be a 5/2 and often a 9/2. Even when it doesn't connect it will usually be taking out a Tarmogoyf or something equally dangerous. Comparing it to a vanilla 1/1 is nothing short of insane.

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Decks run fast sweepers and E.Plagues to combat ETW and Bridge tokens

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If your opponent drops EP you have to kill it or you lose if you don't have Pilderiver in your deck. It's the only Goblin that still connects for more than 1, which is why Goblins can win through EP. Also as Jak said, Warchief double Driver is how you beat Wrath, if you can use Matron properly at least.

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And for those of you keeping track, Mogg Fanatic is incredible. It doesn't get cut.

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No it isn't. Fanatic is solid but the very best you can ask from it is to be an annoyance to your opponent. Every other Goblin in the deck has a game-winning effect, the only reason I run any at all is so I can Matron them up when I don't have any guys on the board and need to kill something small.

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When it comes to deciding what Goblins to cut my advice is to stay the hell away from the 20 Core (Matron, Warchief, Ringleader, Lackey, Piledriver). These cards power the deck. The absolute most radical thing I could justify is to cut one Ringleader, but even that seems like a bad choice. The way I see it is that these 20 & 3 Incinerators 1 SGC, 1 KJ-MB and 1 Sharpshooter are absolutely necessary, leaving you with 4-5 slots that you can fill as you like (personally I think Swords is better than any other Goblin). Removing Piledriver is such a bad idea that I can't begin to think of how to argue against it. If you aren't playing him your only threat is a weak and slow EtW. Goblins needs tweaking not an overhaul.

What do you think of this build?
I switched from white splash to green and will test 2 Berserks MD. It can be very surprising i think...
I've cutted also Kiki-Jiki...

4X Goblin Piledriver
4X Goblin Ringleader
4X Gempalm Incinerator
4X Goblin Lackey
4X Goblin Matron
4X Goblin Warchief
3X Mogg Fanatic
2X Siege-Gang Commander
2X Tin Street Hooligan
1X Goblin Sharpshooter

4X Æther Vial
2X Berserk

4X Mountain
3X Wooded Foothills
4X Taiga
3X Bloodstained Mire
4X Rishadan Port
4X Wasteland



// sideboard

4X Tormod’s Crypt
3X Krosan Grip
4X Chalice of the Void
3X Pyrokinesis
1X Goblin King


Any suggestions for Sideboard? It needs some changements i think...

Berserk's arent good i think.. If you only play 2, you put them most of the time on the bottom of your library.. I think you can better run 2 more goblins (Stingscourger is very good as 1-off.. and a 4th Mogg or maybe a Goblin Tinkerer is also good)

I will make a list, thats less Aggro and more control ore something, I hope I can post it tonight...

Mvg

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Originally Posted by dlevsApiJ

Berserk's arent good i think.. If you only play 2, you put them most of the time on the bottom of your library..

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That's not a reason not to run Berserk. A good reason not to run Berserk is that it's only any good on a big Piledriver - and if a big Piledriver is connecting, you don't need a Berserk to win; even if Wrath hits, a SCG is all it will take to bring them down. If you don't have a big Piledriver, then Berserk becomes the world's worst Giant Growth.

Beware the danger of cool things

You guys are getting distracted by the shiny object here, namely the possibility that Goblin Piledriver has a huge front end. Really, how many times, in close matches, has a single or even double piledriver pushed through that exactly 20th point of damage? I've been playing Goblins for going on five years now, and I assure you, that's the exception rather than the norm. You just happen to remember those times because let's be honest, it's really freaking cool to play out your hand and bash for fifty. However, more often than not, you're grinding away three to five points a turn.

There are three goblins that are essential to Goblins. Goblin War Chief, Goblin Ringleader and Mogg Fanatic (though personally, I would make an argument for Goblin Matron, as well). The loss of anything else is an inconvenience (though not necessarilty a small one). The loss of any of those forces a drastic restructuring of the deck.

If Goblin Piledriver was Dwarf Piledriver, it'd suck. "Well yeah, because Dwarves suck," you say. That's correct, but Dwarves isn't good not because it doesn't have a Piledriver, it sucks because it doesn't have a Dwarf War Chief, a Dwarf Ringleader, Dwarf Matron, and Dwarf Fanatic.

I make the Long.dec analogy again. Goblin Piledriver=Tendrils of Agony. Tendrils of Agony isn't broken. It's not even the back bone of the deck. It's simply there because it makes use of the synergy that's already within the deck. Goblins isn't a deck based on speed, it's a deck based on synergy. Goblin Piledriver doesn't contribute to that synergy, it just takes advantage of it.

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Originally Posted by DWolf

Tarfire bad but Mogg is fine? In what reality?

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In the Legacy format, reality. Tarfire adds the Instant and Tribal card types to the graveyard, ie: +2/+2 to Goyf. There is no reason to add card types to the deck unless its adding busted effects. And two damage doesn't seem too busted with Mogg Fanatic and Gempalm both offering similar effects in a card type you want to be running.

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Originally Posted by Phya

Fanatic is solid but the very best you can ask from it is to be an annoyance to your opponent. Every other Goblin in the deck has a game-winning effect, the only reason I run any at all is so I can Matron them up when I don't have any guys on the board and need to kill something small.

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Removing Bridges from Below from Ichorid's gy, pinging down Cephalid Illusionists, killing off Dark Confidant, clearing the way for Lackey, etc may not be "game winning", but all seem like pretty good steps toward not losing the game anyway. Mogg Fanatic is definitely pulling his weight.

Wort, Boggart Auntie (2BR) - Legendary Creature (Goblin Shaman)

3/3 Fear, At the beginning of your upkeep, you may return target goblin card from your graveyard to your hand.

I believe that this card is indeed interesting in Lorwyn for goblins. I believe it can be very playable with cards like warchief which would reduce the cost by 1. Something to at least think about.

Is this card playable or just some other sub par goblin?

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Originally Posted by Phya

When it comes to deciding what Goblins to cut my advice is to stay the hell away from the 20 Core (Matron, Warchief, Ringleader, Lackey, Piledriver). These cards power the deck. The absolute most radical thing I could justify is to cut one Ringleader, but even that seems like a bad choice. The way I see it is that these 20 & 3 Incinerators 1 SGC, 1 KJ-MB and 1 Sharpshooter are absolutely necessary, leaving you with 4-5 slots that you can fill as you like (personally I think Swords is better than any other Goblin). Removing Piledriver is such a bad idea that I can't begin to think of how to argue against it. If you aren't playing him your only threat is a weak and slow EtW. Goblins needs tweaking not an overhaul.

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Your opinions aren't fact. Kiki-Jiki and Sharpshooter are far from "Absolutely necessary." I'd go so far as to wager a guess that 3 out of 4 Goblin decks that place in tournament decks don't run both, and that over half don't run either one. I personally think Kiki-Jiki is trash and I think most but not all Goblins players agree with me, and I think Sharpshooter has always been a situational card that's either amazing or awful.

@ TeenieBopper

I am well aware of that argument and I completely agree with it, however I think you're stretching it too far. Just because Piledriver wins games in a dramatic way doesn't make it a bad card. I am 95% sure that I have a Piledriver on the board in over half of the games I win, and I'm confidant about it because it feels like closer to 90%. Piledriver is your main threat, cutting it from the deck is like cutting Tarmogoyf from Threshold or Exalted Angel from WW. What's your win condition then, powering out an army of 1/1s and 2/2s? If you're going to do that you might as well play TES since you win 2 turns faster. Also, if you cut Piledriver you can't get a 3rd turn kill and aside from something magical like double Lackey, double SGC, Warchief, Matron, a turn 4 win is out of the question. This means that Goblins is now at least a full turn slower, since the deck wins on turn 4 (my build) ~45% of the time.

@ from Cairo

Removing Bridges against Ichorid (assuming they didn't hit LotV) is quite strong, but the same way Gaea's Blessing was strong against Solidarity - it really depends on how much pressure you can put on your opponent to win before they can win without them. Killing Confidant is good but is a role that is much better filled, for example, by StP or Smother. Clearing the way for Lackey is also a job that Gempalm Incinerator can do much better than Fanatic. I can't speak about Cephalid Breakfast because I have yet to see it in my metagame.

@ Tacosnape

You are correct, opinions aren't fact. You pass critical thinking 101. I'll admit Sharpshooter is a metagame call, but if your metagame has Goblins, EtW, random aggro, or prison I think it's a mistake not to run it. I would never cut Kiki-Jiki and I don't care if every other Goblins player in the world agrees with you. It has the single most powerful effect of any card in your deck, almost guarantees a win with Ringleader, Matron, SGC, or Sharpshooter (situationally), and is far from useless with Lackey, Warchief, Fanatic, or Piledriver. There are countless board situations where Kiki will shift the game and no other card in your deck could, it deserves to take up one and only one slot.

And yes, that is my opinion.