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I cancelled my trip to GP Columbus too, actually, in favor of GenCon. When 'those pacts' will be legal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninj4
So if I get a Man-o-War, does it counteract the stupid Children of Korlis?
Sorry for bringing up the hate card so much. I see it THAT OFTEN.
There is only one reason you could possibly take this stance. You haven't played with or against the deck. This is not sensationalism, it's simple fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninj4
Read this thread all the way through. You'll find several people saying "you guys need to chill out and deal with it. It's just a big change and things will adapt." Almost without exception, you will see these very same people come back a couple pages later and say "Wow, this is fucking broken." What we're discussing here is not a metagame change. It is the complete removal of a metagame in favor of a single deck based solely on its relative power level to the rest of the format. Don't take my word for it. Find a competent player with a solid list. Now try to build a deck that beats that player. Feel free to stack the deck with as much hate as you want. You will win some games. You will lose many. Your deck will lose to everything that isn't Flash combo. If you don't believe me, try it.
I appreciate a willingness to be the voice of reason. I try to take the same stance myself. At the same time, I am a realist. This is not a "oh man they changed the card faces for 8th edition wtf I'm quitting the game!@1!!" situation. This is a, "there is only one viable deck in the format" situation. I say this having spent the majority of the last three days testing with and against various iterations of the deck. Even the ones without FS cards are ridiculously difficult to beat. I encourage you to try it and see for yourself.
I have never played as or against this deck, but I can safely say anyone saying it isn't broken should retire from Magic. Stop talking about all this stupid "hate" that is going to make this deck par. Not only are there less hate cards against this deck then every other combo deck every made, but said hate is useless unless it comes online turn 2 at latest and possibly with counter backup. Judging from some peoples testing that may only be good enough 75% or so of the time, also take into account that your turn 2 has even less of a chance of happening on the draw. So basically you need Turn 1 hate, assuming your deck doesn't scoop game 1 you have to win 2/3 games vs. a deck that is a 2 card combo of which one card is basically an 8x and the other is 4x with 4-5 tutors, and the rest of the deck is mana, dig, and free counterspells. Why would anyone bother to play any other combo post-FS except of course Iggy Pop with MD Voids?
Just for laughs I built the Turn 0 version of this deck (running 4 ESG/Gemstones in favor of Lotus Petals) and tweaked a little from the various other decks (2 maindeck Merchant Scroll and 1 Chain of Vapor) to see how ridiculous this deck really can be when it wants to.
I find it rather hard to believe I would have lost ONE of the 20 games I goldfished. My slowest hand, which was a mulligan to 5, had double Force of Will backup by turn 2, thanks to my turn 0 Brainstorm off of Caverns. By the time I had gone off, my hand was 3 FoW, 1 Daze (two Islands in play), and 1 Pact. That was MY turn 4.
That was also the ONLY hand in 20 games I had to mulligan down with. In every other hand, I either had full combo opening hand, setup to comby NO LATER than turn 2, or just a flat out turn 3 win with nothing short of 3 viable counterspells. For reference, here's the rough list I put together:
Mana:16
4 Gemstone Caverns
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
4 ESG
Setup:13
4 Summoners Pact
3 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
2 Merchant Scroll
Combo:19
4 Disciple of the Vault
3 Phyrexian Marauder (may go to a 4th, but probably overkill)
4 Shifting Wall
4 Protean Hulk
4 Flash
Protection:12
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Pact of Negation
1 Chain of Vapor
And for note, I personally don't even feel this is a fully optimal list. I would really like to fit in at least 1 Underground Sea, as I can cast Disciple if I draw into him, having only 4 shuffle effects with Brainstorm to throw him back. Even then, that wasn't really a problem, as I would just Mystical or Scroll out a Brainstorm and toss him back, then win on my upkeep.
Sure, this version is relatively easy to hate on the mana sources since there's only 2 basic Islands, but if it comes down to Wasteland hate, I'll just search for them. I have no need for black or green mana, just the Island and an ESG, which is an uncounterable source of mana anyways.
I would say post-FS, this is probably going to be degenerate. Not sure whether or not we'll see anything come along to actually stop it, and survive the remaining field, but there's still a chance enough people try to play hate decks to possibly shift us into a direction to looking harder for answers.
As for what I call for banning, I say hit Hulk. There's still so much viability with Flash, and I'm not sure if any of the other decks people have tried to come up with come even close to the power level Hulk gives this deck. Not to mention, I really want to work on something like Rector Flash, for post bannings. So many random things you can dig with that combo, and there's probably more than just Rector to bust with it. Still doubting any future combo is going to be as bad as the Hulk one, which is why I'd like to see Flash itself stay.
Please stop discussing the deck with pacts!!!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathwingZERO
This version will not matter because it will not be legal for the GP. ALso I disagree that the deck is digenerate without the pacts, I believe the deck will dominate the GP.
EDIT: Don't bother reading - this post is a RTFC mistake. :frown:
This only applies to the Kiki-Jiki/Karmic Guide combo, so, if you don't like it, skip this post.
Excellent idea. Since the Shapeshifter has a CMC of 3, there is a better plan against Pithing Needle set to Carrion Feeder. Hulk fetches:Quote:
Originally Posted by nightshade81
Volrath's Shapeshifter
Carrion Feeder
Stern Proctor
Of course, the weakness is that the Shapeshifter could end up being a Carrion Feeder before the Proctor ability resolves. However, if the opponent spent his mana on Pithing Needle, he probably doesn't have it open for removal, so it's not that much of an issue the majority of the time.
Wait, how does Volrath's Shapeshifter work? The top card of your graveyard will be Flash.
You are so right - I misread the card, I thought it essentially said "top creature card," not "if the top card is a creature."Quote:
Originally Posted by MattH
Thanks.
It probably doesn't matter much in the cosmic scheme of things, but Londes.com just published an article on the deck(albeit with an inferior decklist) so it has now been outed in a non legacy/vintage forum.
Darn, I thought when Flash resolved that you got to pick which order then went into the graveyard because they would go in at the same time. I'm not 100% rule savy, sorry for post a non working idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by MattH
don't you have a 1CC creature removing any card in any graveyard, as you have 1CC left from the Hulk ?
There don't seem to be any 1cc creatures that will work for this purpose.. . at least not that I found.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maveric78f
Also, my particular hope was that you could bring in Stern Proctor to deal with a Pithing Needle, but Shifter(cmc 3) + Proctor(cmc 2) + Feeder(cmc 1) maxes out the Hulk, so a hypothetical 1CC creature which removed a card in the graveyard wouldn't fit anyway.
Does anyone remember Worlds a couple years back (I think it was Worlds), where Affinity had basically been banned and T&N was the dominant deck? Someone made a metagame call to include Twincast and Uyo, Silent Prophet in their T&N list so they could Twincast the opponants Tooth and then copy the T&N a second time. I don't remember the exact circumstances or the win condition and I'm too lazy to dig up the details.
You might ask yourself why I bring this up. Well...
1. I'm thinking that a deck wanting to beat a Flash deck really has no problem matching it with counter magic as long as it runs Islands.
2. If you either copied or stole (Twincast, Flash, Misdirection?, Commandeer) their spell when they try to cast Flash, you could get a number of different packages to nullify their win without sapping your own decks resources. Quite simply, you could grab True Believer, 3 Disciples & an Essence Warden or 2 Samurai of the Pale Curtain & a True Believer or etc. Again, I'm too lazy to dig up all the possible packages you could fetch.
3. Obviously this all hinges on whether or not you have the mana and that you can win the counter war that will undoubtedly ensue.
4. You would obviously need to run your own Flash (Maybe 2-3 copies) so that you could still manage to win vs. other decks.
I think rather than view the situation as beat it or play it, maybe folks should look at it from a more innovative approach. You don't have to play the exact list with Disciples and Xcc Artifacts, nor do you have to play the Karmic Guide, Academy version. I think it's safe to say, everyone is going to face the deck at least once on average in the GP. With the additional slots you open up by removing the 10 or so cards, you can build a more control oriented version with plenty of answers to the Flash hate cards (Chalice, Leyline, etc.) while running your own. I know alot of what I wrote here has already been covered but I still haven't seen a good hybrid Flash/Flash Hate list that can both beat the standard list as well as the rest of the field.
Good Luck!
I think most people are keeping their plans for the mirror under wraps at this point.
Since the deck looks like it's going to be around until at least June 1st...
One of the possible hate cards I've seen people suggest seems to fit into every single deck (that has the ability to fit in 8 new cards):
4 Serum Powder
4 Leyline of the Void
Any deck can fit that, regardless of the color of the deck. Some decks can also squeeze in something like Chalice. Other decks may have some other form of disruption or something. However, this itself points out that not only decks with blue or black are capable of answering Hulk Flash. I can see Goblins running the above mentioned cards and possibly Chalice. The deck will need to be retuned to handle the meta... dropping Vials, Tin Streets, possibly Ringleaders and Fanatics, fitting in maybe Moxes/Petals, or Goblin Grenades to quicken the clock... or maybe even Chalices MD.
I think many decks may be able to retune to cope with the deck simply by running the above 4 cards + possibly other additional disruption.
I only say this because I think it's possible to salvage more current decks when the metagame becomes only Hulk Flash than people are suggesting currently (as in, 1 or 2 hate decks and everything else being Hulk Flash). Very distorting for the metagame, but salvagable.
Just posting to register my utter disgust with this deck, which I strongly feel is going to make a mockery of my favorite format. It seems basically equivalent to Wizards deciding that randomly unbanning Dragon and Entomb was an essential part of Future Sight except that its even worse, as Dragon would still have likely had mediocre matchups versus a decent number of decks whereas this does not. Unbanning Yawgmoth's Will and/or Bargain would have had less of a destructive effect on the format. It especially galls me that they decided to do this (though obviously not be intention) immediately before a major Legacy tournament that would have been a good chance to showcase the format's (previous) diversity. Unless there is an emergency banning (which I doubt there will be) it makes me extremely happy that I opted not to go to Columbus.
I just won a post-SB game against my UB Structure&Force deck by hardcasting a Shifting Wall at 3, an Elvish Spirit Guide and a Phyrexian Marauder at 4.
This is the best deck ever.
Pre-FS what is the best build of Hulk Flash to run?
Disciple win condition:
Pros:
Can't be disrupted by instant speed creature removal
Can win at instant speed
Cons:
Requires 11 slots
Drawing 2 Disciples is bad
Kikki Jikki win condition
Pros:
Requires 3-4 slots
A lot more disruption can be run
Cons:
Vulnerable to STP and other instant speed creature removal
Vulnerable to Pithing Needle
Requires an attack step
The disciple win conditions more difficult to disrupt but at the same time it runs less disruption then the Kikki Jikki win condition. The Kikki Jikki win condition can be made more resilient by including 1 Kikki Jikki 2 Karmic Guides 2 Carrion Feeder and a Benevolent BodyGuard. Simply get Feeder, Guide returning Hulk sac Hulk if they kill either of you creatures get replacements otherwise get Kikki Jikki, BodyGuard and go off ( less effective vs Goblins you cant give the Guide pro red or Kikki can't copy it). At the same time this increases the combo size and makes it less attractive a win condition, although some of it could be run in the board and just the bare combo main.
What is the best land base to run here, and does this differ based on win condition used or is it the same? The general consensus seems about 12-13 lands 4 Lotus Petals and some number 1-4 Elvish Spirit Guides. In addition to Fetches, some basics, Tropical Island for Worldly Tutor, and Underground Sea if your running Disciple. There are 2 other powerful options available Gemstone Caverns and Boseiju.
Gemstone Caverns
Pros:
Allows turn zero wins(almost negligible)
Allows turn zero Brainstorms and tutors to protect from discard
Acceleration
Cons:
Bad in multiples
Doesn't produced colored mana unless played turn zero
Card Disadvantage if played on turn zero (making about 8 disadvantage tutors and this)
Boseiju
Pros:
Makes Flash uncounterable
Cons:
Slow
Does some damage to you
Doesn't produced colored mana
Gemstone seems better against discard because it provides better protection if your not going first at the same time it decreases you hand size by two making hymns more powerful against you. Boseiju seems very good against Threshold and Control which in addition to discard and Combo tend to be the more difficult matchups.
My problem is that I can only think of 1-2 combo decks in the history of magic that were as degenerate.
But every combo deck in the history of magic has required multiple steps to win the game.
Dragon repeats the same step multiple times to draw out its deck and make infinite mana. Tinker puts artifact permanents into play but does not win outright. Bargain and Necro draw huge numbers of cards but they don't actually kill anyone.
All these decks require more than one action. Flash is a ONE CARD COMBO, that has never existed in magic before. You need only resolve Flash and you have won the game. And for all those people who say "they have not won the game yet because I have stifle in hand" :listen to what you are saying, You have to be running blue AND stifle/Trickbind to stop it. Thats insanity.
Kiki Combo with Caverns MD and maybe Boseiju SB...Quote:
Originally Posted by Meeee