[DTB] Vial Goblins

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No. Wombat is not played. There is absolute no reason to run Flashfires. How about a nice playset of Lightning Bolts instead?

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Your sarcasm is humorous, and suspect. I am interested in finding out what flashfires will really do to Wombat.

Godzilla, I agree with your asessment of Armageddon VS Flashfires. Also, the Jitte will be tested. If Flashfires is added to the sideboard, it may be at the expense of mirror tech. If Jitte tests well against Wombat, while also helping the mirror, it would seem to be the better choice. Perhaps just making room for two jittes in the maindeck would be workable. Disenchant, imo, is an automatic 4 of in the white splash build, which I am running. It really will come down to which makes the most significant improvement in a nightmare of a matchup. I feel, if I was piloting Wombat, Flashfires would be a larger pain in my ass than would the jitte. Time will tell.

[edit]11/4/05 The guy I was going to test with didn't show up until too late on thursday night. I did play 3 games (which take forever against wombat) with 2 Jitte in the main. Both times they came up, I wished they were Flashfires, which would have owned the game. [edit]

Re: Jitte...

In my mirror test games, when Jitte was drawn/played, it absolutely broke the game in half. Once you start piling counters on it your Goblin opponent will have a really hard time coming back into the game, since you can nuke his Warchief to make his guys lose haste, nuke a huge Piledriver, nuke a Siege-Gang, etc. Yes, you might be losing guys to get counters on the Jitte, but is really owns the table. The main problem is flipping one over with a Ringleader, which is obviously bad. This is leading me to want to try 3 maindeck Jittes, to improve our chances of drawing into one and being able to use it.

Vs. Wombat (and mind you it was an older version, that still had Akroma's Vengeance instead of Disenchant), Jitte alone trumped Humility. With them having Disenchants, however, it's surely less of a problem. But that's why you'll be packing something like Anarchy, that I personally like vs. Wombat an awful lot more than Flashfires. Sure Flashfires leaves them with no lands, but it does nothing against Moat, Humility, Angels, Dragons, Soldier tokens made in response, etc., and it only indirectly solves the problem of ROP:Red, since they can always play more lands to activate it.

Again, my sample-size of test games probably isn't large enough to make a concrete determination, but again, when Jitte was drawn/equipped it generally swung the game. Having said that, it would definitely be the first card to side out in certain matchups.

Hope this helps.

Luis

I've been thinking about how to shore up the mirror match. Now Jitte seems like a good start, but I've also thought of replacing Rishidan Port with Quicksand.

Pros: Stops 99.9% of their team

Cons: It's a Wasteland target
Produces colorless mana
Tap: Sacrifice

Thoughts?

The fact that it's a Wasteland target is the worst problem, I think, since they can keep you from using it normally. Also they can just tap it with their Ports before attacking and you're sort of screwed...

My verdict: there are better cards for the mirror. Also remember that Port is part of what helps you beat up on LandStill and other control, by messing with their mana even more. Without Port your control matchup takes a hit, especially against something like Rabid Wombat.

Luis

If you want a build aimed specifically at winning the mirror, I would think that cutting Wasteland and Port is the way to go. The mirror match has never been won by mana denial, in my experience... going back down to 18-19 Mountains, and putting in more Goblins and Jitte/Bolt/MasterWarcraft seems the way to tinker the deck to gaining the mirror advantage.

If you want a card to truly dominate the mirror have any of you considered SoFI? It makes your dude unblockable and takes 2 for 0 every time you swing. If you equip a lackey then I don't see how you could lose the game from then on.

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Originally Posted by CavernNinja

If you want a card to truly dominate the mirror have any of you considered SoFI? It makes your dude unblockable and takes 2 for 0 every time you swing. If you equip a lackey then I don't see how you could lose the game from then on.

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A decent point, except that any sane Goblins player will be running the white splash for Disenchant, particularly because of the new Dredge-a-Tog craze going on right now and the fact that they tend to run Plague as a 4-of in the board. That Disenchant also hits Vial, and it's been oft-said that Vial superiority is the key to winning the mirror doesn't hurt either, I should think.

In fairness, this is speculation, however. I'm busy working on decks that beat Goblins specifically so I can avoid the mirror.

While I am currently running the white splash for disenchant, the consideration of Flashfires in the board is making me lean toward the green splash for Naturalize. Keeping my own land(s) in play would seem to be good. Honestly, I am considering going back to the faster Goblin Sligh build. Speed might just be better than card advantage against the current field.

With many decks running multiple hate cards for goblins, and most of them being enchantments, I've been thinking about switching naturalize for tranquil domain.

Tranquil Domain
1G
Instant
Destroy all non-Aura enchantments.

The only enchantment hate card that this doesn't hit is.. uh... pacifism. But it kills humility, CoP: Red, RoP: Red, Reverence, Plague and whatever else you might need to kill. However, it doesn't destroy artifacts. I've been thinking about it, and the only artifact that I really fear is Damping Matrix. Sure, there's Vial and opposing Jitte's, but I also play Pithing Needle in the board.

Thoughts?

Actually, as an instant that sounds like a damn good choice.

The only problem is that your matchup against Angel Stompy continues to be sucky. Disenchant actually gives you some kind of a chance.
-Slay

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Originally Posted by Slay

The only problem is that your matchup against Angel Stompy continues to be sucky. Disenchant actually gives you some kind of a chance.
-Slay

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And who the hell still plays Angel Stompy?

People that know how to metagame?
-Slay

Slay brings up a good point, but so far, I haven't been able to produce a AS build that can go 50/50 against Landstill and still smashes Goblin consistently. (Sort of abandoned the deck and worked my ass off on Flame Vault.)

I know Landstill is not doing well against Goblins at the moment and GP is going to consist largely of Goblins with different colour splashes, but the point remains that Zvi ran Landstill in Worlds, so no matter how bad the deck, people will net deck it and people will play it. (Probably a reputation thing....) So whether or not AS is a good meta choice remains to be seen.

Tranquil Domain seems like a good choice, may be a even split of 2 Tranquil Domain and 2 Naturalize can give a pretty good balance handling both artifacts and enchantments.

I've been a big fan of goblins for 2 years now and constantly play it each large event I'm able. Right down to foodchain vintage. I have to say that the biggest strength this deck has it's consistancy. I largely endorse the mono r build over all color splashes. Some gobs play ports and sb needle to handle most minor problems till the team of green men we love win the game.

I think splashing gives the same benifits but not more. There are no off color goblins to slash for, thus your adding non tutorable, non synergistic cards to do the same job as many more aplicable answers. SB shard phoenix is not the answer to the mirror. Nor even the man with vial, as much as the one with a full slate of gempalms, a high count of shooters, and some arrangement of king,pyromancer,sparksmith.

The only thing in gobs should be is lands vials and gobs if your looking for the deck to do what it was meant to do. I don't see how siding in a swords for a silver knight is better than a pyromancer to stay more aggro than they can handle.

This site has alot of legacy coverage which is what makes me like it. But alot of the which version is better debacal really gets in the way of fine tuning it.
It's not preferance that determines which build you use. It's metagame, my metagame spidey sense is telling me to stay monored and support rishadin ports.

The only way for gobs to beat the hate thats waiting for it at philly is to maximize all card slots with AGGRO THREAT. You might have naturalize for moat against wombat, but you didnt have ports to keep them off the mana for wrath, wing shards, and renewed faith.

There's less than a week till philly, what built will you take!
Argue your points people!

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You might have naturalize for moat against wombat, but you didnt have ports to keep them off the mana for wrath, wing shards, and renewed faith.

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Well, actually, most builds do. There's not much reason to not splash, given that Disenchant solves that whole "Engineered Plague wrecks you problem. No, King does not get it done.

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Originally Posted by B is for Big Job

And who the hell still plays Angel Stompy?

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People who want Mana Drains, apparently.

Let's discuss Engineered Plague. With Black on the rise in Deadguy Ale and Tog builds, 4x Engineered Plague between the main and board is going to be on the rise. Patron of the Akki was Sonne's Grand Prix-winning answer to the card. While I personally think it's fundamentally awesome to win a tournament with Goblin Offering, after the top 2 we had some mild discussion the subject and a much better answer hit me like a Diamond bullet through my brain;

Gauntlet of Might

If you're too lazy to click on the link;

4
Red creatures get +1/+1.
Whenever a Mountain is tapped for mana, its controller adds R to his or her mana pool.

They trade 1-for-1 on Engineered Plagues. With even a single one out, they need 3 Engineered Plagues to shut down your real threats. And unlike other such answers, such as Goblin Goon or Clickslither, Gauntlet of Might has synergy with Goblin King in fighting Plagues. With 1 Goblin King and 1 Gauntlet of Might, your opponent needs all 4 Engineered Plagues on the board to take down Piledriver and Warchief. A second Goblin King at that point seals the game, shutting out your opponent's hate entirely.

I hadn't honestly considered it, but now that you do it does work as far as fighting Engineered Plague.... However, I'm not sure that it's better than a Naturalize-effect and/or Tranquil Domain. There are seemingly a few large drawbacks to the card:
[*] The obvious "Not a Goblin" comment applies to this card, and you'd need to run it as a 3-4 of really to get the maximum effect out of it. That clutters up your sideboard a tiny bit.[*] It's a 4-mana Artifact. While 4 mana is relatively easy to come by, I would think that against Deadguy or DaT that you would be trying to be fairly relentless in your threats aswell as tapping down and being land light using your Wastelands and Ports to keep them away from off-color sources. This issue may be moot, however, as it'd be largely dependant upon which types of lands you draw.


There is also the point of what to replace with it in your sideboard, but that is likely up to personal oppinion were you to try running it as most sideboards are different depending upon the player. I feel the Naturalize-effect plan is simply stronger and more diverse against the field, as there isn't much beyond E.Plague packing decks that you'd bring this in for. It just seems too much of a narrow and dead card in most cases.

Edit: Also, although price should never be a factor in determining the optimal decklist; Gauntlets of Might aren't exactly the cheapest option available to players....If the player already has a set of Taigas or Plats for the deck, a cheap common option like Naturalize or Disenchant is much easier to attain than a 60ish (i think?) dollar card like GoM.



Edited By CorruptedAngel on 1132058751

If you are looking to go that way, I think that Goblin Caves may be the better option. The enchant land costs 3 instead of 4, gives all your goblins +2 on toughness, and is a lot easier to find and cheaper.

Edit: Cheapest Gauntlet I've found so far is Heavily Played and $85.