[Deck] Eva Green - B/g suicide

Good points above.

Conditionally bolt takes out a first turn mana producer. Otherwise I think you are right about playing bolt later unless you wanted to clear the way for a dork, and it also adds an interesting dynamic on the goyf on goyf action when you don't have Snuff Out available. Obviously Vindicate alleviates the issue altogether.

I have only seen B2B MD in MUC. Generally speaking since we are using our mana every turn we would potentially be screwed anyway, but Vindicate does provide an out. Post board we get REB which is a cool way to deal with that (also BEBable but we do have black disruption... so they probably won't bring it in).

The biggest issue with Bolt is it seems like it doesn't "do enough" although the red splash for the sb seems really nasty.

Great posts and input guys. Yeah, I agree that 3 Snuff Out and either 2 StP/Reanimate & 3-4 Vindicate is the ideal removal package. And I'm glad you're starting to see Vindicate's awesomeness too and the utility in Reanimate. Playing burn doesn't make sense. That slot has to be occupied by a card that can take out annoying Enchantments/Artifacts, otherwise, you'll lose many games to Ghostly Prisons and what not.

Like I posted yesterday, I tried out 4 Phyrexian Negator in place of 4 Nantuko Shade this afternoon.

This too seems to be a step in the right direction for this deck. So far, no problems with me losing games because of Negator. But the card has won me it's fair share of games, far more than Nantuko Shade.

4 Tombstalker
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Tarmogoyf

The density, quality, efficency and speed of the threat base is just absolutely insane now. It honestly feels like I'm cheating and playing combo.

If your playgroup is burn ridden. Another (worse) option is Ashenmoor Gouger. You can't cast it if you play a Wasteland but can cast it thru a Blood Moon and he's not quite as threatening as Negator, but he's fairly strong regardless.

Whatd you remove for a 4th Neg? a 4th Hippy?

Im scared to run Stalker, my Meta has a lot of burn and one guy was playing that "Deal 3 damage to any target, gain 3 life"

seems terrifying to play Negator in these situations....Neg makes a Red matchup much more impossible, and what happens if you get a matchup of Goyf/sligh, or Threshold man.

Threshold will annihilate this deck with Negs....and dont get me started on Goyf/Sligh

If they first turn Grim lavamancer, 2nd turn they play goyf

You hypotheticaly Snuff out The Mancer or the goyf....

3rd turn they Fireblast then bolt your Neg if you cast him turn 3

Youre screwed.

If youre going to play Negator, it makes more sense to just play Juzam for 1 more....yea, no turn 1, but even if they turn 1 play a little ebater, and block your negator, thats 3 mana wasted and youre losing negator, or if it is something like a kird ape, youre losing Gator and your land

Yep, I cut the 4th Hippe for the 4th Negator, but most people are still playing 4 Shades so they wouldn't need to.

Yeah, in your meta, with all those burn decks, I definately wouldn't play Negator (though Red Death did do very well in a meta filled with more creatures, red splashes and lots of burn).

But definately don't play Juzam Djinn instead. You're probably better off playing the 3 Shades, or if not, playing 4 Ashenmoor Gouger instead.

hmm...gouger is an interesting idea....i was thinking of that a couple weeks ago. Maybe ill test it a bit. you dont have to worry about pumping to save shade at times either.

You know what, if you own a set of juzams go ahead and play them. I think you are required to.

Ah, yeah...the big negs is coming back. My thinking is that if you play big negs then you want the stp to make sure the way is clear, or to nuke yours if a fireblast is coming its way.

Against just about anything that doesn't have lightning bolt I think a first turn negator is scary stuff.

Phyrexian Negator is not good in this format. If you don't have removal for your opponent's Tarmogoyf then your Negator does nothing. He can't block and he may not even be able to race. Making one of your threats dependent on having creature removal is a very bad idea especially when you have no way to find it.

plague sliver>juzam in any meta with any traces of slivers + pricetag

Juzam Djinn's art and awesomeness factor >>>> Plague Sliver. If you have a playset of Juzam Djinn, you're pretty much obligated to play them in every deck that can support the card, including this one.

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Originally Posted by AnwarA101

Phyrexian Negator is not good in this format. If you don't have removal for your opponent's Tarmogoyf then your Negator does nothing. He can't block and he may not even be able to race. Making one of your threats dependent on having creature removal is a very bad idea especially when you have no way to find it.

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My build runs 8 MD creature removal and 4 Thoughtseize, so it can deal with opposing Goyf. The key point is, nowadays, aside from Goyf, most decks aren't playing many other threats or burn. Atleast not like during the heyday of Goblins and UGr Thresh. I'm still surprised Red Death fared so well in such a meta. Do you really think that the current meta is less friendly to Negator than back during Goblins and UGr Thresh? Esp if your build plays 12 ways to take care of opposing Goyfs.

Even if you can't kill your opposing Goyf, if they attack with Goyf, you take it and then attack them with Negator till you find your removal or another threat to close the deal. If they hold back the Goyf to block, it makes the Negator worthwhile regardless.

if you have the djinn play it offcoarse, but there are poor students like me who can't afford them :P

I'm still in the B/g version, but maybe I'll try some vindicates some day, but I'm no fan of it. need to get my scrublands first then ;)

the list I currently play is

5x Swamp
4x Bayou
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
4x Wasteland
4x Dark Ritual

4x Nantuko Shade
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Hippie
4x Tombstalker

3x jitte
4x Snuff Out
4x Hymn
4x thoughtseize
4x sinkhole

SB

4x Engineered Plague
4x Choke
3x Seal/Grip
4x Leyline of the Void

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Originally Posted by SuckerPunch

My build runs 8 MD creature removal and 4 Thoughtseize, so it can deal with opposing Goyf. The key point is, nowadays, aside from Goyf, most decks aren't playing many other threats or burn. Atleast not like during the heyday of Goblins and UGr Thresh. I'm still surprised Red Death fared so well in such a meta. Do you really think that the current meta is less friendly to Negator than back during Goblins and UGr Thresh? Esp if your build plays 12 ways to take care of opposing Goyfs.

Even if you can't kill your opposing Goyf, if they attack with Goyf, you take it and then attack them with Negator till you find your removal or another threat to close the deal. If they hold back the Goyf to block, it makes the Negator worthwhile regardless.

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Red Death fared well because most creatures that had a high power and toughness were relatively expensive or slower to come online when compared to Phyrexian Negator. Back then Survival had to play creatures like Ravenous Baloth or Flametongue Kavu and Threshold played things like Werebear and Mongoose. Survival's creatures were relatively slow never really coming online till about turn 3 or 4. Werebear and Mongoose were only a threat once they got Threshold which was again on turn 3 or 4. This made an early Negator a really threat which was really hard to stop. Goblins had small creatures to block it (yes Fanatic was a problem) and that is what made Negator good. He was also good against combo and control.

That isn't true anymore. Everyone plays Tarmogoyf including control decks and you don't want to rely on drawing removal. I wouldn't play 8 creature removal spells in Eva Green because that leads to many dead draws against non-creature decks and it can stall your own attack by just drawing removal when you need something more versatile. I played 7 creature removal spells in my original mono-black Suicide list in 2005 and it never worked as well as Red Death or Eva Green.

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Originally Posted by AnwarA101

I wouldn't play 8 creature removal spells in Eva Green because that leads to many dead draws against non-creature decks and it can stall your own attack by just drawing removal when you need something more versatile.

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Please take a look at the list you are commenting on. :smile: 3-4 of those creature removal spells are Vindicate, and 4 more are Thoughtseizes. Both are cards that are as versatile as they get and are pretty much never dead.

In such a build, I could see an argument that the Negator count should be 3 rather than 4, but I really can't see a strong argument against it. You mentioned that cards like Flametoungue Kavu and Goblin decks (with that cycling direct damage goblin) saw a lot more play in the heyday of Red Death. Neither were cardsa that Negator liked, and UGr Thresh saw a lot of play too. Actually, tons of decks splashed red for burn to offer up a versatile answer to turn one Goblin Lackey.

I remember that old meta, and I remember it being a lot more hostile to Negator than the current one.

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Originally Posted by SuckerPunch

Please take a look at the list you are commenting on. :smile: 3-4 of those creature removal spells are Vindicate, and 4 more are Thoughtseizes. Both are cards that are as versatile as they get and are pretty much never dead.

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I thought you were considering STP and Snuff Out? If not, then that was my mistake.

Sorry, my posts were confusing since I brought up that I play StP a lot.

I play 3 Snuff Out, 2 StP, 3-4 Vindicate, 4 Thoughtseize. Those are my 12 answers to Goyfs.

Played this tonight, got fucking HOUSED by Goyf/Sligh 1st round

Round 2

Beat Goblin 2-0


Round 3

Played against Threshhold, Spanked the hell out of it game 1, Game 2 I was stupid and kept one land....didn't draw another one all game...yea sweet

Game 3, kept one land again, a Bloodstained, he stifled, no lands in 3 turns. That was it.....I know I coulda won this matchup had I just Mulliganed


Round 4

I slapped the hell out of a Survival deck....hardcore...

so 2-2, coulda been 3-1....*sigh*

Snuff out, while being incredible is just not viable if you face red. And with Threshold running Chain Lightnings or Bolts, it is just scary.

I think switching the deck if you add white to almost a Deadguy Ale/Eva Green style would be more reasonable. It is too dangerous otherwise. STP over Snuffout is my verdict

You can almost always snag that Scrubland you need within a turn, so you take a beat from a threat 1-2 times for 3-6 damage possibly and STP it....it is RFG. Much better I think. I just think it is too iffy playing Snuff out after tonight....although it did save me a few times..


Mr personal favorite play of the night, Reanimating my opponents Eternal witness to grab my tombstalker back, and casting him. :-)

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Originally Posted by Ramptoniin

Mr personal favorite play of the night, Reanimating my opponents Eternal witness to grab my tombstalker back, and casting him. :-)

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I was high enough in life where I:

reanimate --> Opponents witness
Witness CitP Ablility --> reanimate
reanimate --> my tombstalker

Beatings!

What were you using snuff out vs. burn on? I mean mog fanatic?
Think of it this way, vs. Red Thresh you can only hit goyf and you don't always have white mana so you can either let him beat on you and eventually put them up 4 or more life or take the 4 upfront and get rid of him now.
I agree vs. goyf sligh, it is dicey but you just have to go faster than them!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ramptoniin

Played this tonight....

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Nice mini report. Thanks for posting it. And I love the list as well.

I've been running StP and it has really been awesome. if you fear Goyf Sligh, perhaps you can try cutting either 2 Reanimate or 2 Thoughtseize and the 3rd Snuff Out to make room for 3 StP.

Don't get me wrong, Both Reanimate and Thoughtseize are absolutely fantastic cards, but there just doesn't seem to be room for both of them and the accompanying lifeloss along with StP.

Thoughtseize, Nantuko Shade and on occasion Hippe, often strikes me as the weakest cards in the deck. :eek: They're great cards, but the quality of the cards available to this deck are so high. On the otherhand, Thoughtseize is one of the few cards you have to disrupt combo decks so I don't know.

Have you given any thought to running Ashenmoor Gouger in place of Nantuko Shade. The only popular threat out there that outclasses him is Goyf and you already have plenty of ways to deal with Goyf. Swinging for 4 every turn with 0 additional mana investment, all while being out of bolt range is pretty useful.

I am also wondering if Goyf Sligh is indeed an unfavorable matchup per se, or if it was a fluke.

The only threat they play that won't be gobbled up by your Goyfs/Tombstalkers/Shades are their own Goyfs.

Between 4 Thoughtseize, 3 Snuff Out, (maybe 2 StP) and 3 Vindicate, you can make sure they never stick around past one turn.

As for the burn, Hymn helps with that. But yeah, it pretty much comes down to a race.

If you can lay down your Goyf or Tombstalker and neutralize all their threats and have an answer to their Goyf, burn is their only out.

Gives you a shot to lay down a Tombstalker and try to race them.

They will still win more often than not. But I think you should have a reasonable shot.

From original list i want to try:

-1 snuff out
-1 shade
-1 swamp
+1 scrubland
+ 2 reanimate

SB:

- 3 jitte
+ 3 sanctimony

for goblin, burn, boros and moon effect

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kikkofrio

From original list i want to try:

-1 snuff out
-1 shade
-1 swamp
+1 scrubland
+ 2 reanimate

SB:

- 3 jitte
+ 3 sanctimony

for goblin, burn, boros and moon effect

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I don't know if that is such a good idea. Against goblins, you don't need the help and jitte is strictly better anyway. Plus, they can cut you off of white with a single wasteland if you play only one scrubland (goblins and some sligh builds both play wasteland). It doesn't help you against moon effects because the blood moon/magus is still on the table preventing you from playing magic (even with Eva Green, no white splash, this is a problem from time to time). I don't think burn and boros are very good, and not many people play those decks anyway. Granted a traditional weakness of suicide black has been random zoo decks floating around.

If you insist on boarding for those decks why not just play kaervek's spite and not worry about raping your manabase. Most times you will lose when they are on very low life and just happen to get that extra turn they need to burn you out or swing in for the win. Spite speeds up your clock by about a turn or so, and might actually be relevant in other matchups.