If that is all they are doing, I am fine with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by matunos
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If that is all they are doing, I am fine with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by matunos
Oh hai. Just noticed it was you. Long time no talk. lol Are you playing Stoneblade now? You should drop by Madness tomorrow, they're running Legacy at 6:30 nowadays.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bignasty197
But anyways... the reason I'd lean more towards Cursed Totem is because I could still run Mystics alongside it. This would let me mull more aggressively for Cursed Totem because I can always recover board position with a Batterskull (since now they can't cockblock it with Mom or Pridemage). Mulling for Damping Matrix seems risky because sure I shut down their activations, but I still need to have the removal/counters for all their dudes or else I'll just be overrun with 2/x's and stunted KotR's (which still happen to be relatively large). I can easily go down to 5 cards if it means landing Batterskull with Cursed Totem backup. All said and done, I'm not totally sold yet... but it really does seem promising.
Mid-game it's much worse (another possible/rare "better" play: drop a land, tap out to play something, attack into mother - they might see you're tapped and user her to block, and then you can zap her).Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Early game it doesn't set you back mana, just life, which trades its situational effect for tempo. Like Misstep or Spell Pierce. If you're on the draw and Gut Shot their mother/hierarch then pass back with land up for Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, or Swords, that's quite valuable. Instead of spending your turn hoping to react to whatever they just played, you're waiting to kill whatever they're about to play, and can trade that later to actually develop your board. (Like playing t0 gutshot, t1 snare/swords, t2 mystic against an empty board)
That's valid. I can see it being important to be able to hit Mom at their EoT while being on the draw and then passing with Spell Snare mana open. It is also nice in that it let's you fetch basic Island T1 instead of some possible awkward mana situations that can occur from having to Swords their early Mom, not wanting to get Wastelanded, and still being able to cast Spell Snare or Counterspell. It just seems very limited overall though. It hits Mom, that one faerie, Dryad Arbor, and Noble. Mother of Runes is far from the only threat they have against us.
And Mindcensor and Thalia (though that one not very well). That's 15/25 in (e.g.) Todd Anderson's 2nd place deck at Baltimore. And significantly, obviously, all the t1 drops, which is when it works best (though it's not quite mid/late game when you still need to take out Mindcensor/Thalia/Mom).
Again, in analogy to Spell Pierce or Misstep, it's a better removal spell alongside other removal spells for dealing with stuff that you need to deal with somehow (like Mom), saving your "better" removal for the heavy stuff. PtE has real drawbacks of (a) gifting them acceleration and (b) costing a mana. Against an opening hierarch/arbor, Path would use your turn to do absolutely nothing by letting them keep their acceleration; Gut Shot would save your mana/turn and set them back.
I'm not actually arguing for Gut Shot so much as trying to brainstorm about getting ahead in this match-up. Having more, faster removal (even if conditional) seems possibly good.
(In one game I played, the burn vs. exile difference was quite nice, as I cleared out all the Mothers on turn 0 with Surgical Extractions, brought in for Punishing Fire. Might not be right, but was interesting at least.)
Back to the Sideboard, this is what I'm running:
2 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm
2 Wrath
2 Path
4 Surgical
1 Crucible
2 Disenchant
I board in Wrath, Path, Disenchant and Crucible against Maverick. That's already alot of cards. Against Storm Combo, I only have Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm. Surgical might help somewhat, but I'd like 3/4 dedicated cards against storm combo. If those cards happen to hit reanimator/dredge as well, than even better.
I'm aware that Engineered Explosives is the nuts against Maverick. I'm thinking of cutting a Disenchant and a Surgical for 2 EE. Thoughts?
How is Crucible for you? It always struck me as an odd card for this deck to mise, especially since everyone is boarding in Artifact hate against us as is.
Your SB seems fine. It seems your meta might have more Storm combo than mine. If I were to go to a large event tomorrow, I might grab a Flusterstorm for the inevitable Belcher douche that one always seems to encounter when they least expect it. Still though, Maverick is about the only MU that I really am unhappy to see at the moment. (thankfully there isn't much Death and Taxes around because Thalia coupled with Vials, Wastelands, and Ports makes that MU horrendous)
Certainly, the idea of being able to board into a combo seems interesting against some of these resilient midrange decks. Likely it is far too cute, but if anyone can think of a decent one, I'm all ears. The only decent combo I can think of might be boarding into Show and Tell -> Progenitus or some such silliness.
I actually recommend running one EE in the MD and 1 in the SB.Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
You seem to be a fan of that Crucible, for me that'd be my EE swap candidate.
You could also run one maindecked Path and a Shackles like I do, allowing you to go down to 1 PtE in the SB.
For reference, here's my list:
4 SFM
4 SCM
3 Clique
1 Bskull
1 Jitte
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder -----------------------> the 61st card
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
1 EE
1 V. Shackles
3 Jace
1 Elspeth
4 FOW
3 Snare
2 CS
9 Fetches
4 Tundra
4 Island
1 Plains
2 Factory
2 Waste
1 Dustbowl
SB:
2 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm (inspired by you)
4 Surgical Ex.
2 Disenchant
2 Wrath of God
1 Path to Exile
1 Jace
1 EE
I'm doing a little better against Maverick and finding the following helpful:
1. Playing a very stable manabase and fetching lots of basics early. Most real solutions which can actually turn the game around (planeswalkers, wrath, EE, Shackles, etc.) are all very mana hungry, so wasteland (especially in multiples) can leave you stranded with ineffectual solutions while you're getting beat to death.
2. Boarding in Sulfur Elemental as another "big mana" solution is fairly helpful in many cases, wiping Mom, Thalia, Mindcensor (and Lingering Souls) at split second (sometimes getting an x+1 for 1 in a combat trade), and (cutely) turns SFM into a faster clock. He might be further clogging the expensive-removal-options slots, and looks pathetically costed next to Dread of Night, but has come through several times in testing (though the G/W list I'm running against is running 9 x/1 white guys, which is higher than some).
I've got, post-board, 4 StP, 2 PtE, 2 EE, 2 WoG, 1 Shackles, and 2 Sulfur Elemental.
3. I continue to split on boarding out the SFM package or cliques and a couple counterspells. Sulfur Elemental is nice in giving another dude to attack with (if sfm comes out), and since all your guys have flash then, your counters get better.
What else are people boarding out?
I like boarding out the SFM package against Maverick and I'm starting to really like Cursed Totem. Shackles really doesn't seem that reliable with 6-7 ways for Maverick to get a Pridemage.
Why does no one play Humility? Maverick plays zero outs in their 75.
Humility hurts us almost as much as it does them, perhaps more, since they have more creatures (and typically, more Elspeths). It negates all of our card advantage except for Jace (no Snapcaster-flashback, no fetching equipment, no Clique or Geist effects). It's something you'd never want to see unless you already had a Batterskull or a sworded dude out in play, and you're often already winning at that point. All that, and it's 4cc means you won't get it out early, and it competes with your planeswalkers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai
As an aside, I predict Maverick will start including Krosans in the SB again to combat Cursed Totem, or for the blue splashes, Trygon Predator (which wouldn't help against Humility, but would against Cursed Totem).
For the most part Humility is just a slower Cursed Totem that hurts us nearly as much as anyone else. I'm not sure Cursed Totem is wide spread enough yet that Maverick is worrying about putting Krosans in the SB, but maybe.
From the Maverick perspective, running Krosan really clutters the deck up. It's untutorable, it costs a buttload with Thalia in play, and it can easily be a dead card (especially if the Stoneblade player sides out their equipment). I think it's more likely that Maverick will move to a Blue splash just for Spell Pierce (which also helps a lot vs combo) or else use Aura of Silence in their Enlightened Tutor package.
Ah yeah I forgot about the enchantments like Aura of Silence. Tutoring into that sure is a lot slower than zenithing into a Qasali Pridemage, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
t2 EoT tutor into t3 Aura isn't much different than t3 GSZ into Pridemage (other than the color requirements being easier on GSZ). You can even use the Aura's destroy ability that turn. Pridemage has to wait until t4.
Has anyone given much thought to an Enlightened Tutor board for us? I've never much liked it, but lately my SB seems spread rather thin, so I've been thinking about it (especially in light of Cursed Totem). I'm still not sure it's worth it, but here's a rough draft.
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Disenchant
2 Wrath of God
1 Cursed Totem
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Oblivion Ring
Grafdigger's is redundancy against the GY decks. Ethersworn basically makes every non-dredge combo MU better. Wrath of God is pretty hard to replace. Likewise, Disenchant is useful over Aura of Silence for its ability to play around Choke better. Surgicals are still good for t0 against Dredge, additional hate for Reanimator, and still pretty decent for Storm.
The main thing I'm losing here is Path to Exile, which I might be able to make up for in that I can find both Cursed Totem and EE more reliably. I also lose Spell Pierce, but I feel that GY and Storm MUs have gotten better with Cage and Canonist, so that's perhaps a non-issue. Losing Pierce does make the mirror match that much trickier though.
It's possible that dropping an Enlightened Tutor and/or another Surgical in favor of 1-2 Pierce (or Path?) is better.
I'm running:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
2 E Tutor
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Cursed Totem
1 COP: Red
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Wrath (1 MD)
1 EE (1 MD)
1 PtE (1 MD)
I run 4 FoW, 2 Snare, 2 Counterspell, 1 Spell Pierce maindeck, so when I don't want Pyroblast, I'm a bit light on counters (hoping that COP will make up for it against burn and ethersworn against storm).
I have no disenchant effects against Choke, only EE. I thought about Seal of Cleansing, with Tutor->Totem, SCM->Tutor->Seal available, but I don't think I have the space, and it's still pretty slow. If I tap out to cast something and get Choked without the Force, tutoring puts off untapping for another few turns, and I'm quite far behind at that point. Tutoring up EE isn't much worse if that's what it comes to, even though it's mana intensive. Spots are probably too tight for a couple of disenchants. I'm planning on leaving in Forces, so, that's the main out to Choke...
I should say that I was building this list for a tournament where I expected a fair amount of random, budget-friendlier decks - burn, combo, dredge. So I wanted to have strong answers for those things. This is not how I would board to be sure I could beat Maverick/Esper
How is Wheel of Sun & Moon for you, versus other GY hate you could tutor? I like that it's applicable against numerous GY decks (or even defensively against Painter-Stone to keep them from winning, I guess), but I don't like how it doesn't interact with cards already in the graveyard when it's cast, which seems like it could be a problem against Dredge if they've already started dredging or Reanimator, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by anwei
http://s3.gatheringmagic.com.s3.amaz...al_Mastery.jpg
I'm not sure how this isn't broken. We definitely run some number of these... possibly 3-4.
The only downside is that after I pick up the foils, it'll probably get the ban hammer... :(
It's almost like they forgot the eternal formats exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
So it's "Timewalk", unless it's in our initial 7 or we cantrip into it?Quote:
Originally Posted by matunos
Nice.
You can use Jace or Brainstorm to shuffle it back in your deck if need be. Or cast it late game.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
Ugh, wtf Wizards.
If you're Jacing it, you're probably happy putting it back on top for your next draw (which could be a Brainstorm at opponent's EOT). Both Jace and Brainstorm are valuable for putting one you drew at an inopportune time back, but in the meantime it's a dead card in hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
We don't want this early because we can't fully captitalize on the extra turn when we're in draw-go. We want this mid-game for added development and hopefully an added attack. Late game is win more because we typically have inevitability on our side if we've made it that far.
This card is not as bonkers as everyone thinks it is at first glance. The real Time Walk lets you hold it until its opportune to have the extra turn, and then cast it for 1U. Temporal Mastery makes you either cast it immediately on draw, or expend resources (time, spells, mana, card selection) to manipulate it into place.
Brainstorming it away when you don't want it is nice, but if youre shuffling it, that doesn't guarantee you'll draw into it when you want it. Personal Tutor into it means card disadvantage: you need to have a developed battlefield to do much useful or it's a glorified free land drop (not that a free land drop is bad). Keeping it in your top 3 with SDT for a few turns means there's a dead card on the top of your deck potentially keeping you from selecting a better card right now. And then we're talking about playing Top in a deck that doesn't usually need to (yes, some include Top in Stoneblade, but it's not typical; it may be more of a boon to a Thopter deck).
This may very well be broken, but what it's not is a replacement for Time Walk. Talk of having 4 seems silly, considering you don't generally want one in the top 1/6th of your deck. 2 or 3? Maybe, but I think it's a lot more situational than folks are thinking when they're focused on the miracle cost and not thinking through the details.
Initial 9-10 (depending if you're on the play or draw), since you need 1U at draw time to miracle it. But its value on turn 3 is pretty limited, considering you'll enter your main phase tapped out.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
It's worst if it's in your opener with no Brainstorm and no Force of Will.
If you have a FoW, then it's easily pitchable. No cost.
If you have a Brainstorm, you can either put it second from the top (to be used on t3) or possibly shuffled away.
If, at worst, you play it t3, it is still at almost no cost. Drop a land, play a one-drop if you have it, untap drop a fourth land. This only becomes risky against decks running Daze.
At best, you can topdeck (or set this up) for turn 4-6 when you can make better use of your extra main phase and attack phase (another Jace/Elspeth activation, untap with Mystic, etc).
Don't forget also, that if you can instantly draw it off the top at their EoT, then you can untap with two full turns.
Two full turns, but -1 card. Probably still worth it (esp as you get full mana, making a Jace drop more likely), but just pointing that out. No matter how you draw into it, you have to draw into it, meaning it could have been something else to draw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Not sure if it will be banned. Fow, brainstorm and jace just make it a bit easy to set up and even if you just use it to accelerate out an jace it's incredibly good. Not a 4-of as having it in hand without fow,brainstorm or jace is a bit lousy but i can definately see it work as a 3-of.
May be more insane in some delver like list though as an active threat on the table makes it so much more potent.
Seems rather weak in blue mirrors though and against some control decks as you need to tap out when you don't want to or run top to make it active on other turns
Quick question, can you crack fetches in response to the miracle trigger? Apologies if this has been answered elsewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Anyone still rocking the red splash? I understand the raw power of the esper version but I feel it's still extremely clunky. I'd like to fit in some grim Lavamancer because I had good experiences with it during the mental Misstep days. I like how grim can shut down Delver and sfm. Against esper blade you can shoot down whatever jitte gets equipped to everyone time they try. Of course the dissynergy with snap is there so I'm planning to play this list:
4 Brainstorm
4 Fow
4 Spell Snare
4 Jace TMS
3 Snapcaster
3 Grim
2 Clique
4 Stp
2 Bolt
4 SFM
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic
4 Scalding
4 Flooded
1 Mesa
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
I feel grim smoothes out the curve nicely. I've basically cut 2 Counterspell and a Snapcaster for the grims. I've always liked how grims are an immediately dangerous threat for 1 mana and gets plowed immediately, opening the way for SFM to stick. Counterspell has always felt like a loose slot because it's beyond clunky. I never really casted it during a time that matters. It usually gets stuck in my hand for ages because I don't have the 2 mana open. I'm always tapping out for SFM, jace or the draw step clique.
The esper versions just feel so clunky, totally tripping over itself and getting tied up and raped by Delver aggro.
Yep, you can also cast Vendilion Clique and take their miracle away, or Stifle the trigger, or just counter the spell (unfortunately, it's going to fly right over Spell Snare), cast Silence/Chant, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynicath
I have got the same sentiments about CS..Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
I don't think that the Miracle cards are auto includes to this or any deck, as they take time to set into place, and what are you displacing to allow them to enter the deck.
Offset, has to outweigh what they remove, and an extra turn is not always a game winner (although it should certainly help).
I can build a deck that looks a lot like RUG that will completely outclass the current DTB, and will play 4 of these. Even if they banned Brainstorm, it then goes from "I win every game" to "Mull to 6...oops I win," i.e. the reason everyone hated cascade.Quote:
Originally Posted by SupREME-10
If it gets big in Legacy, play Predict or play more Spellpierce.
By now i am not really impressed, but we'll see what some wicked minds will brew.
Playing those cards is not a sufficient strategy to beat Temporal-Mastery.dec. You're going to try really hard to line up all of your cards, only to lose to Nimble Mongoose and Delver.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackStarDeceiver
'What i mean is that you shouldn't paint the sky black before you actually know how that thing really works. If it happens to be a strong card for Canadian we will have to adapt. For now i doubt that it pushes Delverdecks over the top.
have you tested this version? i run red for 2 sulfur elementals and 2 red blasts side which seem like it'd be very good against the esper version (other than that im straight uw stoneblade). but after seeing your lists im tempted to run 2 lavamancers. it seems very good.Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
Hey guys so I've been thinking of a new version for a while. LMK what you think:
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Brainstorm
4 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Punishing Fire
3 Force of Will
2 Preordain
1 Mana Leak
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Wasteland
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Plains
Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Wrath of God
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Crucible of Worlds
Thoughts?
FOW is strongest when it's in your initial 7. Play four.Quote:
Originally Posted by planeswalkerzen
Timewalk will be very good with (SD.top), Brainstorm and Jace obv..
But even if no board presence to abuse from its still a strong topdeck early. Think about it: Late game (or in other words a lot of mana) is where stoneblade is strong. Hence even without a board presence would you play a card that reads "1U play an extra land this turn, draw a card, untap 2 target lands". It will only be bad in the opening 9: but how many games do you play without casting brainstorm, Jace or Force of will?
Will be a 2-4 in Blade control i think.
I agree. Judging from initial testing, this spell seems to solve U.controls biggest issue:Quote:
Originally Posted by catmint
getting through the early game as unharmed as possible, while keeping the board clean.
That extra turn (+1 land +1 cantrip + untap) makes a HUGE difference.
I've found Chrome Mox to be immensely helpful for frequent turn 2 Time Walks. Though it's a rare scenario, but TM + Mox enable >turn2< Jaces..
Here's my current shell for reference (different archetype, but may contribute inspiration)