Looks good Omni. I'll try to sleeve it up soon for a few games and give you my thoughts. I'll give a report on where my Loam Pox is at the moment as well.
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Looks good Omni. I'll try to sleeve it up soon for a few games and give you my thoughts. I'll give a report on where my Loam Pox is at the moment as well.
@Omni StrataQuote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
Your deck is mean, very mean. It certainly beats up on TNN decks. I adjusted my mono black build based on it and tweaked a bit for my play style (land destruction land destruction land destruction) I still have to test to see if there is a place for Night of Souls Betrayal in my Loam Pox build as Toxic Deluge and Drop of Honey are good in the side there.
[deck]
Pox
1 Nether Spirit
1 Haunted Plate Mail
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
1 Entomb
1 Pox
4 Smallpox
4 Lilliana Of The Veil
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisition Of Kozeliek
1 Thoughtseize
4 Innocent Blood
4 Sinkhole
4 Dark Ritual
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
9 Swamp
1 Verdant Catacomb
1 Cabal Pit
2 Tombstalker
2 Engineered Plague
1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
2 pithing Needle
2 Extripate
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 trinisphere
2 Sphere of Resistance
[/deck]
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
i was affected with a sudden wave of keen emotion and excitement when i saw your list because its very, very similar to mine:cry: ..i too have fashioned my deck after reid's list since there's a renascent of tempo decks in my meta..
i noticed that you're running 2 big poxes with only 24 lands; i haven't tried it because my instincts dictate that i might get mana screwed since i'm also running 2 big poxes:confused: ..but if you can attest that this 24-land with 2 big poxes configuration works fine then i might just give it a shot myself because having another free slot open will certainly be a good thing for that flex spot.. :smile:
i'm guessing that the 2 tombstalkers in the board are to be sided in for the combo matchups so you can finish them quickly before they combo off, i completely understand the thought processes involved behind this, but personally; i feel safer having trinisphere or even sphere of resistance in those slots in lieu of those 2 stalkers to delay combo..but i guess its all a matter of preference.. :laugh:
overall, i really like your list, i think its really solid.. :cool:
p.s.: props to the snow-covered swamps!
I just put this together, just looking for opinions and suggestions.
Lands:
4- Mishra’s Factory
4- Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4- Wasteland
12- Swamp
Total: 24
Creatures:
2- Nether Spirit
Total: 2
Plainswalkers:
4- Liliana of the Veil
Total: 4
Artifact/Enchantment:
3- Cursed Scroll
2- Phyrexian Arena
1- Batterskull
2- Ratchet Bomb
Total: 8
Spells:
4- Sinkhole
4- Hymn to Tourach
4- Smallpox
4- Inquisition of Kozilec
4- Innocent Blood
2- Syphon Life
Total:22
@zeni.
With 2 Crucible or 2 Loam I find I can get away with 23-24 lands, and in fact expect to play Wasteland and Cabal Pit over and over and over...
As far as OmniStrata's list, it works great. Sometimes you may have to pitch one Pox effect for another, but you are really just looking for one or two to put them under a rock they can't get out of.
Yes, when you need a clock to INSPIRE FEAR, Tomby is one of the best. He's also good against RUG thresh and any other deck that doesn't pack 'hard' removal like Plows or Terminate. The 24 land works with 4 Dark Rituals backing the Poxes. T-Sphere or Sphere of resistance drags the game out and against combo, I've learned that it's actually safer to just murder them on the spot. I also don't run Crucible Waste-lock so it's not effective for me to wait. Tomby thirsts for my enemy's Health points!Quote:
Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag
I love LD myself. I have a Mono Red newb budget deck designed for pure LD. Pox for me is TOTAL RESOURCE denial. :mad: One reason why Infest or Damnation or Toxic Deluge isn't included is the "Band-Aid" philosphy given by the Duke himself. I've experienced it myself way back during my budget Pox days where I'd run Infest, but my friend's Elves deck just recovers with Sylvan Messanger and that really sucked. Engineered Plague naming Elves and a Night of Souls' for the rest of his critters pretty much *blanks* everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by beez
Protection from OmniStrata? I TARGET NOTHING FOOL! :laugh:
I assume it was stone rains and the like. Were you able to incorporate Devestating Dreams into it?
Hey all,
I'll be playing mono black pox at SCG STL this weekend, keep an eye out for me. My deck is mostly set in stone, but there are some slots, particularly in the SB I am unsure about. In the main board I'm considering dropping bloodghasts for either 2 Thoughtseize, 2 Pox, or perhaps moving 2 piithing needles to the main and having 2 more flex slots in the side.
1 Nether Spirit
2 Bloodghast
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
3 Innocent Blood
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Nether Void
4 Wasteland
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Cabal Pit
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Mishra's Factory
8 Swamp
SIDEBOARD:
2 Engineered Plague
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Extirpate
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Spinning Darkness
Thoughts?
@beez
yes, i can see how having a pair of crucibles can offset this much land sacrificing..and cabal pit! how i love that land! i often run a singleton of it even when i'm not running crucibles anymore..i sometimes take it out though and replace them with a swamp or a bojuka bog when i'm running a configuration with 2 tombstalkers because they don't work so well together(same reason why i also took out the singleton spinning darkness main and upped my innocent bloods to 4), and i also found out that with tombstalker eating your graveyard and bojuka bog eating theirs, there's a small chance that you can nerf their tarmogoyf and put their deathrite shaman in a situation with no targets in the yard to eat, though i'm not sure if its worth the occasional loss of tempo caused by the bogs CIPT thingy, if you're not fond of bogs, then i guess a swamp will do..i also feel that most of the time, the demons just render the cabal pits a black mana-producing land that pings you everytime you use it when you don't happen to have an urborg, tomb of yawgmoth in play..
@omnistrata
i'm currently running 3 nihil spellbombs and 2 extirpates for anti-graveyard strategies in my board..there was a time when i felt like i should replace my spellbombs with relics of progenitus but i felt iffy though coz i felt that there would be some situations where i would kill my nether spirits if they happen to be in the yard or put me in an awkward situation where the stalkers can get stuck in my hand because the relics removed my graveyard..
have you ever experienced these situations? or are there no match-ups where they would be sided in together? at the top of my head, perhaps dredge is the only match where you might board these 2 in?
-"the "Band-Aid" philosphy given by the Duke"
perhaps the relics follow this band-aid philosophy more than the spellbombs because if you manage to remove all the cards in their yard at some point using the relic's first ability, you can totally lock graveyard based decks out of the game, whereas the spellbomb's one shot ability can give them a chance to recover..
Again, it may just be my playstyle but I would replace one Bloodghast with an Entomb and a Verdant Catacomb with another Cabal Pit. After you have killed the Deathrites you can Entomb for Nether Spirit or if you have Crucible out, making sure you have some targets for it, Wasteland, Pit or Factory if you need a wincon .I would also consider moving Toxic Deluge to the board for another big Pox. With crucible out you can Pox with impunity. Do some test draws with a Night of Soul's Betrayal and see if that worksfor you. Of course that precludes the GhastsQuote:
Originally Posted by Manroe
however. With no top I dontth ink I would run so many Verdant Catacombs. The 4th Urborg can sometimes come up duplicate, but other times it's just what you need. In Loam 3 is fine. In mono black I still like 4.
You could probably run 3Hymn, 3 Inquisition and 2 Thoughtseize and be fine.
I typically don't run Tombstalkers, though I think there is a good arguement for siding them in against some combo and non-swords having decks in mono black. In Loam a couple of Cabal Pits are WAY better than Tomby. As far as Bog goes, in Loam I wish I had more spots for basic land, and in mono black it is ok sometimes and a bit random. In general I find it an odd blowout against dredge and have helped in the poor burn matchup by taking away the lavamancer fuel and sometimes a recurting elemental. Other than that it is too slow for Reanimate which often entombs and reanimates on their turn before you can Bog it. And against Goyf decks exiling their grave while still having yours is not greatly effective. So to me Bog is a bit Meh.Quote:
Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag
It uses the new [beyond sinkhole] style of LD. Play a threat on turn 1-2 and then spam land kill while said threat punches you to death. They were 4 Arcbound Slith, 4 Slith Firewalker, and 3 Oxidda Golem. Fun deck for casual play using Flowstone Flood as an emergency land killing card lol. Dreams didn't work since I could just spam flowstone flood. Stone Rain, Pillage, and Aftershocks rocked well.Quote:
Originally Posted by beez
Where Pox is concerned, my old LD focused Pox ran no hymns, just 1 Duress and 3 Rancid Earths in place of them. It used 4 Epochrasite, 4 Bloodghast, and 4 Frightcrawlers for win cons. The idea was still the same, play a cheap threat that could rush/chump fast turn 2 and then Sinkhole/Rancid/Wasteland them into nothing. I suppose Nihilith or Dross Golem may have worked as well for Frightcrawler.
Got a Legacy event at my local Pastimes tonight! Time to see what I can do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
- Good luck, please update us with a report if you can..
Minor report, I'm not able to get my detailed notebook which has a 'battle log' but I can show some quick results, memorable momentsQuote:
Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag
Round 1 Game 1: Sneak Show, fully armed with Force of Wills and Trop/Volc Islands etc.
TOTAL CRUSH, both games I hit the Tits draw with turn 1 Dark Rit-> Liliana. He doesn't use the Force and never draws it throughout the game. Wasteland/Sinkhole reared their sexy backs and I found all 8 of them in my graveyard game 1. Game went long but Mishra's eventually top decked and killed him. Game 2 was the same start, only he on the play opened with a tropical Island off his fetch. After turn 1 dark rit attempt, he Swan Songs it and gives me a 2/2 that oddly enough, eventually kills him.
1-0
Round 2 Game 1: Nic Fit, his opening DRS was a bad portent.
I barely get to disrupt with Hymns and Sinkholes. Vet. Explorer gets him the mana he needs to drop a Bane Slayer Angel. Deck says 'Feq you Omni' and doesn't let me draw any kill and I die. Game 2 was worse with an opening Leyline of Sanctity and with his land generating advantage, he manages to drop a Sigarda. Cursed Scroll and Nether Spirit and Mishra's weren't enough and I get plastered. Pox no like Nic Fit.
1-1
Round 3 Game 1: Esper Stoneblade. Pox must have been VERY angry with me previous game cause looking through his deck with game 2 surgical extraction should have been an auto-win for me. He eventually gets out a Batterskull after I mull to 6 and get no real disruption. Game 2 was just as bad as I mull AGAIN to 6 and end up with some draw-pass turns 3 times in a row. Pox deck that doesn't impact immediately deserves to lose. In hindsight, I should have boarded in ALL my E. Plagues and Ens. Bridges in exchange for my Dark Rituals and 1 hymn and 1 inquisition. It ran True Name Nemesis...
Some times I find that the 2nd Night of Souls Betrayal ends up as a dead draw and I'm thinking of chucking it for a miser Black Sun Zenith. Turning that Sigarda from a 4/4 [yay Night of Souls] into a 1/1 would have allowed me some breathing room as Tombstalker came in Game 2 cause I KNEW the Leyline would have caused issues. Shadow of Doubt to mess with Vet. Explorer and GSZ made me reconsider it as well.
I'll post the really detailed report later. 6 players total, small tourney, but more have been invited in the coming week or two, looking forward to it. Need to learn next leveling so I can side out my Hymns when Leyline is sure to show [derp]
@omni
-Some times I find that the 2nd Night of Souls Betrayal ends up as a dead draw and I'm thinking of chucking it for a miser Black Sun Zenith.
Its funny you mentioned this because this is exactly what i did last night..actually, my deck have gone through different incarnations before i ended up with BSZ to replace the 2nd night of soul's betrayal which can sometimes be a dead draw..i first tried a damnation in its place but it felt underwhelming, then toxic deluge but running 2 big poxes sometimes made my life so dangerously low so i removed it too, i also tried drown in sorrow and it was ok(the scry bonus is really good), but while going through my EDH deck, i came across BSZ and thought that it plays somewhat like an ersatz night of soul's betrayal at 3 cmc and like NoSB, it also compliments engineered plague so i replaced the NoSB with it..nothing is set in stone yet and i might revert back to night of soul's betrayal..
i'm not sure if its the right choice but i'm going to playtest it tomorrow..we seem to be going through the same vicissitudes with our almost identical builds.
kudos to the SnT match up by the way..oh how i hate the SnT match up!
OOH Drown in Sorrow is a SCRY 1 Infest?! :eek: Right now, the largest nuisance that's ever been printed is without question Sigarda, Host of Herons. It's like the ONLY real way to out muscle that bitch is to trade with Tombstalker or nuke the field with a card that may cost too much for Pox decks. They should print a BBB Sorcery spell that board wipes in a very powerful way. The CC alone is prohibitive enough. TNN is a joke but the anti-Pox theme that is Sigarda is annoying. Luckily I only saw it in Nic Fit.Quote:
Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag
Normally I would be ashamed to allow a three color deck 5 mana to hardcast Sigarda, but Rock Nic Fit version is one of the few legacy to use old fashioned mana ramp. Ive played it seldom but the last varient I played was full of persist creatures. I was lucky that I got him in loam Cabal pit weenie lock when I was low on life, but I remember thinking it an unfavorable matchup. BuG controll with Ancestral Visions is tough to play an attrition type game with as well as it is built to be resilient and full of card advantage that makes it harder to keep them down than other decks.
Hey all, brief update. I went ahead and dropped at 3-3. Had a rough day. Lost to RUG Delver, Omnitell, and Belcher. Beat Miracles, Elves and Dredge. Awkward day and awkward matchups.
details, details....Quote:
Originally Posted by Manroe
Pox losing to Tempo RUG and combo decks? Winning against Dredge [da feq?! :eek:] Elvish Swarm, and Top Deck God-deck?! :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Manroe
I'm guessing your top decking was getting rocked as well. Learning from this experience my last tourney, I suppose instead of bringing in anti-sideboard sideboard cards [ala dredge and it's anti-gy hate], we should simply bring in board cards that dance around enemy hate.
For instance, I should have removed my cursed scrolls for my Tomby's when I smelled Leyline incoming. derp* :rolleyes: In the past I'd run Ratchet Bomb and thought about Nevinyrral's Disk to deal with problems Pox would run into with non-creature/non-land permanents. Pithing needle their walkers is probably best. Even more so if they're gonna waste an Abrupt Decay on a needle instead of liliana :) Big report when I get home.
Here was my final list:Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
1 Nether Spirit
2 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
3 Innocent Blood
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Nether Void
1 Night of Soul'd Betrayal
1 Entomb
4 Wasteland
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra's Factory
10 Swamp
1 Cabal Pit
1 Ghost Quarter
SIDEBOARD:
2 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Extirpate
3 Pithing Needle
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Spinning Darkness
I don't have the most thorough details.. but it was just a weird weird day. The RUG delver matchup was vs Jeff Rasmussen. He was a total dbag. It was round one and judges were at the table 3 times. I had to appeal to a head judge because apparently no one understood what spinning darkness' alternate cost required. I won game one on a mull to 5 and he was crying about it.. we're talking like t1 entomb spirit, t2 sinkhole, then top-deck jesus mode into crucible and ghost quarter. G2 I mulled to 6 and he pretty much just beat me out of the gate with double delver and goyf and I had no way out. G3 was about as long and grindy as it gets, and I kind of boned myself. I Extirpated his brainstorms and nimble mongoose. Pretty much an open board (he had about 10 lands) and I had cursed scroll and I knew one of his two cards was a spell pierce due to an earlier delver trigger. I have an inquisition and I draw a Liliana. I inquisition him and he uses his THIRD misdirection of the game to take Lili, then top decks grip to blow up scroll, then ponders into goyf goyf delver. While I brick into lands. GG.
Dredge guy was inexperienced and I basically mulled into Leylines in g2 and g3 and he wasn't sure how to handle it.
I demolished elves. I remember Game 3 opening with Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Inquisition, NoSB. Game 2 I had nether void and cursed scroll lock.
The Belcher guy won the die roll, beat me turn one g1. I drew a hand of hymn, dark rit, deluge, nether void and 3x land and he beat me turn 1 again.
Miracles kid should have stomped me. This match was a s***-show as our game 1 took 35 minutes. Good thing we had a time extension.
Omnitell just wrecked me. I saw no discard but a hymn game 2 and he forced it. He killed me t3 both games.
Hello Pox players,
I was wondering if you guys discuss BG pox/loam here as well? Just asking since this thread seems more active and the original bg pox thread is kind of dead. I have a list I would like to share that I've been brewing for quite a while. Went to two local tourneys with my close to finalized build last week:
4-0 in a small weekly event, 4-2 in a monthly event..missing top 8 due to breakers.
Yes, BG Loam Pox appears here every now and then, please share! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoderm
Why thank you sir. My list is as follows:Quote:
Originally Posted by pettdan
//Lands
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
2 Dark Depths
2 Thespian's Stage
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Barren Moor
1 Cabal Pit
4 Bayou
1 Swamp
2 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Scrubland
//Spells
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Crop Rotation
1 Raven's Crime
1 entomb
4 Life from the Loam
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Smallpox
3 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Living Wish
//Sideboard
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
3 Vampire Hexmage
3 Thoughtseize
2 extirpate
In the weekly tournament that I went 4-0, I beat Miracles (2-1), Grixis Delver (2-0), RUG Delver (2-0), Jund Depths (2-0).
In the monthly tournament (4-2 record) I faced: Miracles (2-0), Shardless BUG (1-2), LED Dredge (2-1), Jund Depths (2-0), Miracles (0-2), Maverick (2-0).
Some notes on the decklist:
- I was playing 2 raven's crime, but I currently switched one out with entomb to be loam #5, a land tutor if I have loam already, or raven's crime #2. I should probably mention I do not like Jund Depths and how it goes all in on the graveyard which is why I don't play bad cards like nether spirit.
- Top is absolutely INSANE in this list. It helps me find what I need really easily as I can dredge away the top 3 if I don't like what I see. For instance consider this line of play that occurs very often: EOT Top. Fetch. Top again. Untap, dredge away the top 3. Main phase top. During a tournament, someone tried to deathrite away my loam and in response I stopped it by drawing with top. It protects loam really well. Top also makes the deck rely less on the graveyard. I generally side out 1-2 loams vs miracles.
- I try to keep the Living Wish targets to a minimum. Maze of Ith sometimes makes an appearance but right now I like killing dorks with pontiff.
- After months of testing, I've decided that 2 crop rotation is the right number.
- I don't want to see more than 1 smallpox too early so I have that at 3.
- Delver decks are a Bye.
- Combo is probably a poor matchup but I've won many matches off land denial (smallpox, wasteland) and hymn/raven's crime. I still need to test vs Sneak/Show
- All hexmages come in vs combo for the faster kill to compliment early discard and finish the game quickly. Two hexmages come in vs miracles, shardless bug since they answer planeswalkers very well. Two hexmages can also come in vs decks without swords to plowshares or if you expect lots of graveyard hate like RIP.
You're a loam deck. You use your GY FAR more than we Nether Spirit users. When our yard gets nuked, we lose Nether Spirit. When yours get nuked, you lose Raven's Crime, lands you could have Loamed, or even LftL itself if you don't have a top to save it. How can you lose to combo when you have a Dark Depths die-next-turn mechanism in your deck? Granted, we also lose Spinning Darkness and Tomby but for some, those are sideboard dependant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoderm
As far as I can tell, Sneak Show is auto win for me. Sideboard Ensnaring Bridges make it that much funnier. Wastelanding their fancy 2 mana generating lands is quite satisfying as well. Abrupt Decay is great, though I'd never run less than 4 Smallpox. What's the name of your deck again? :tongue: I'm jealous of your meta if you only need 3 Liliana in your deck to get her to stick. The lack of 1 cmc targeted discard is why your combo matchups are bad
Yard denial isn't as scary as player shroud. Leylines can't be Abrupt Decayed and shut off our most dangerous disruption and damage cards. C. Scroll, Liliana's -2, Hymn to Tourach, and Inquisition/Duress all end up dead. I'd suggest Worm Harvest to flood your opponent since it synergizes with Loam quite well and can be discarded early game.
I can't agree with a combo style win in a control deck like Pox. It needs more focus. I once tried an aggro style build and discovered I couldn't disrupt enough. The way this deck looks, it might just drop Smallpox altogether for more effective kills like Diabolic Edicts or more entombs. You already have Raven's Crime and Wastelock with Loam to reduce their board and hand to shat. :cool:
Has anyone seen this yet?
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12858&iddeck=94287
I am really intrigued by Pack Rat in Pox. It seems like it does quite a lot and could theoretically allow for some subtle changes such as Mutavault and Volrath's Stronghold. Maybe even a Swarmyard.
Pack rat to feed TOMBSTALKER?! :eek: This is an aggro form of Pox that finished 3rd place?! :eek::cool: Will wonders never cease. From the looks of it, it's still a 'control' due to 8 win cons, but the fact that it multiplies threats like a virus is just out of left field. It even makes chumpers at instant speed. Though I wonder with such a high mana cost, if Dark Rit may have helped. Then again, it finished 3rd place so it's probably in its STRONGEST form already...Quote:
Originally Posted by Zirath
Sounds like a bit of bad luck and matchups. I don't think I would put anymore discard for those combo matchups. They are just non interactive decks that sometimes have the nuts draw. RUG is more favorable and they sometimes run Misdirect, but 3-4? Again that seemed like an unusual piece of luck. Loam is certainly better against Miracles with Abrupt Decay and Krosan Grip, so an early needle and some dicard and Ratchet Bomb is what you have to hope for. Thorn or Sphere can slow Omni and Storm a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manroe
I messed about with some Pack Rat after I saw some lists using it, and while it was very cool when you managed to make one stick and copy it a time or two and the tap your mutavault (replacing Factories) to attack for 9-12 , I felt I had to worry about protecting it too much as it can be a bit slow and mana intensive. All of a sudden you are not only worried about Swords as normal with Nether Spirit and other grave recursion, but also just lightning bolts, and all of your own innocent bloods and sac effects and discard as well as thiers, and getting one out and making a copy for three before a sac effect doesnt always go off so smoothly. But with the Tombstalkers, etc it can be brutally aggro. I wonder if Hardcore has tried it in his aggropox build?Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
This is a very unique and intriguing list. I like it a lot actually. I proxied it on Cockatrice last night and played a few matches. I have some initial thoughts but will have to play it a bit more to give better feedback. It is true that it goes all in on the combo, but other than a few times where I had to dig for it a little, but others, especially with the odd Hexmage, it was like oops 20/20 creature on turn 3-4. The pox stuff disrupts and contols the board till you get it together, rather than trying to lock the game up. I'm poxer enough that I still like 4 Lilly and 4 Smallpox. Though with a couple months of testing on your part and a few games for me I'll take your word for it. Swords seems to be the biggest enemy, and opposing Lilly sac, and while you side in 3 Thoughtseize for that and combo, I wonder if in this build they may be more maindeckable than Hymn. Maybe another Entomb or Ravens crime if room, though I see how you don't want to rely on yard anymore than you do. Orzov does work, bit if a spot were found for a Night of Souls Betrayal, it wouldnt hurt you any with no Spirits or Factories. A 19/19 guy is fine cause they probably lost a point or two from fetchland anyway. Overall, it is a very thoughtful deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoderm
I only side in thoughtseize vs combo. Swords is "meh thanks for 20 life" --> loam back my combo (which is frequent vs miracles since they have terminus as well). Gaining 20 life basically means: I have all the time in the world to wastelock you and return my combo too. Swords just gets discarded to raven's crime/hymn most of the time. I'm not in a hurry to win. Swords gives me even more time to durdle. Interesting story: Vs miracles which for some reason played 4 snapcaster....my life total was 99 at one point in the game. This was an older version of the deck though I've vastly improved it since then.Quote:
Originally Posted by beez
Siding in a couple vampires really catches people off guard. It's also funny that people ASSUME YOU HAVE 4 CROP ROTATION. Every turn your vampire (or one of the combo lands) is in play they panic that you can crop EOT. I'm not an all in super fast combo deck so 4 crop rotation is pretty useless early game. I even disliked 3.
Opposing Lily doesnt matter, you always combo EOT. Same with Jace (unless they chump it with a flying thing like Clique then remove your token next turn).
I didn't like the thoughtseize life loss but it's worthy to test. I like how Hymn is FoWbait. It's so brutal and I'm loving it! I feel like it somehow clears the way for a liliana to resolve.
Important to note --> I win over 50% of my games vs tempo with wastelock lol. Especially when you have cabal pit or a Lily.
I also have a question for you guys:
With my build, would you side out smallpox vs miracles? I find it terrific vs ANT/other combo cuz it kills the basic the fetch early on to ponder/whatever.
And thank you for your help/input! I'll test some of the suggestions you put forward.
I would not. Smallpox sets a top decker back very badly. Miracle? Sure, if you can cast it with the mana on the field. Lovin' Sinkhole Wasteland and wouldn't trade either except against say, Dredge or other 1 cmc combo decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoderm
Smallpox is anti-brainstorm. Some argue they 'hide cards' from it but I ask you this. The Tempo player is losing a creature, the card he BS'd, and a land. Does he not have to BS or Ponder 3x to get all that he lost back? :tongue:
Indeed i have; got mine yesterday. Todays tourney was too weird to report but i got to test them at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by beez
They work well with my dredge cards as was expected, but the mana requirement suggest using dark rituals. Alternatively a slower play when the rat is on the table.
Big tourney report. List was posted earlier.
First opponent, Keith, nice player, relatively new to Legacy. He didn't recognize Liliana. At that point, I realized he was a dead man.
Turn 1: I'm on the play. Urborg, Dark Ritual, Liliana. PW +1, I discard Urborg, he chucks an Island. I smirk in the back of my head.
He's on the draw, he drops Island + Lotus Petal. I'm confused for a second.
Turn 2: I Sinkhole his Island. Liliana + 1 discarding Sinkhole. He discards Misty Rainforest.
He plays Volcanic Island
Turn 3: I top deck and Wasteland his Volcanic Island. Liliana +1. He discards Sneak Attack. At 4 cmc, I confirm in my head, he's a dead man lol.
He plays City of Traitors
Turn 4: I top deck a dark rit which I throw to Liliana +1. He discards Emrakul and reshuffles.
He plays a mountain.
Turn 5: I ultimate with Liliana and in response, he casts Intuition revealing 3 Gitaxian Probes :eek: He sacs his City and keeps his Mountain and sacc'ed the lotus petal to cast intuition.
His probe gets him a Scalding Tarn.
Turn 6: I sinkhole his only mountain. Liliana +1 and he discards Emmy again...
The vast majority of the game involves me discarding his Emmy's repeatedly and by turn 15, I stick a Cursed Scroll which eventually kills him on turn 21.
Round 1 Game 2: He's somewhat nervous as what to sideboard. I fake board in my 15 and take out the same 15.
Turn 1: He's on the play with a Scalding Tarn and Lotus Petal.
I'm on the draw with Urborg ->Dark Ritual, and he hits it with a Swan Song by fetching a Volc. Island. He forgot I used wastelands and regrets his decision. I'm happy with a 2/2 flying bird.
Turn 2: He plays a Scalding Tarn
I punch him with the bird, lay down a Mishra's, and use both my land to cast Hymn. It discards Ancient Tomb + City of Traitors... :laugh:
Turn 3: He plays and Ancient Tomb.
I hit him with the bird and hit another Hymn off the top. He discards Misty Rainforest and Scalding Tarn. I'm laughing hysterically inside.
Turn 4: He draws and pass.
My sinkhole is met with a Spell Pierce and I bird him.
Turn 5: Brainstorms end of previous turn, draw pass.
I Stick Liliana, I discard Urborg, he chucks Emmy [not again :)] and for the rest of the game, it's Bird doing the lifting with Liliana pleasuring me incessantly. He dies to bird and a 3/3 mishra.
2nd foe is Jason. A good sport. Nic Fit.
Round 2 Game 1:
Turn 1: I'm on the draw. He lays Scrubland. I'm not impressed lol
I inquisition his Abrupt Decay. At first, he had my curiosity, now he has my attention. I see other Abrupt decays and I know Lili is in danger.
Turn 2: Bayou into Gitaxian Probe.
I dark ritual a Liliana. I discard Innocent Blood and he chucks a forest. I play Mishra's factory
Turn 3: He gives Liliana an Abrupt tooth Decay after playing his swamp.
I play cursed scroll off a swamp and deck him with my factory.
Turn 4: He Cabal Therapys me naming Pox. He wiffs :)
I cast small pox, it hits, I discard small pox, he chucks Morning Star [dragon Yosei I think.]
Turn 5: he plays Vet. Explorer and I cringe.
I sinkhole his Bayou.
Turn 6: He attacks me with his explorer unblocked.
I punch him with Mishra.
Turn 7: He Draws and Pass
I Dark Ritual -> Innocent Blood + Cursed Scroll, then activate Mishra and deck him with it. We get our lands off his Vet. Explorer.
Turn 8: He sticks SDT. I'm screwed.
I wasteland his Scrubland and Mishra hits him.
Ultimately, he gets another Vet. Explorer and ramps the mana he needs to cast Baneslayer. I dead... :cry:
Round 2 Game 2.
No details needed, he sticks a Leyline before the game begins and I in all my wisdom didn't board out ALL my targeting discards and my cursed scrolls. He sticks and SDT on turn 2 vs. my Cursed Scroll off turn 1. I eventually die to a hard casted Sigarda with no way to stop her. I'm raped by a beautiful hexproof anti-Pox angel... :rolleyes:
Round 3. Foe is Craig, another good sport. My meta has nice people. But this game was a throw away. Stoneforge Esper style I think.
Each turn in BOTH games I mulligan my opening to 6 and can't seem to cast or play anything significant. Both times I'm punched by Batterskull or True Name nemesis. I managed to kill his first TNN game one with an Innocent Blood but my top decking gets me flushed out.
I win nothing. But, I am vengeful and shall return! :mad:
@omnistrata
those are difficult matches and none of your losses seem because of misplays or a bad decklist..
-nic fit
this deck is basically just classic rock style and will try to out-control you with control elements, big threats and removal..its strongest against fair decks and weak against combo like SnT and omni variants..nic fit is a difficult match since they have more control elements than us but i don't think its unwinnable..i'm not an expert in this match up because in all honesty i've only faced it once but i got lucky enough to beat it, and i stress the word lucky:tongue: the abyss could help here because its immune to abrupt decay, though some list run maelstrom pulse..or you can go nuts and use larry niven's ultra-destructo-disk..he he he..
-TNN(esper)
esper, i believe is the strongest shell you can put TNN in(though i've seen TNN in bant as well)..its intrinsic weakness is its unstable mana base(usually only 3 while some don't run any at all )..engineered plague on wizard also helps coz a lot of em' run vendilion clique, snapcaster mage, dark confidant and trinket mage to a lesser extent..
overall, i'm not really convinced about these losses, those matches are tough but are all winnable..give it another go! :wink:
Hmm, an idea I haven't tested in MonoB Pox was SDT. Problem is the re-shuffling necessary after you've set your deck for 3 turns or so. Your draws become garbage. No fetchlands, Black Sun Zenith maybe? I also agree, the losses were winnable, but stopping Nic Fit's ability to generate card/land advantage is nuts. Ankh of Mishra for laughs? Don't know lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag
Sweet baby Jesus, this build is naaaasty. I played it a few times more, adjusting a bit for what I expect to see most, my playstyle, and cards I have and have found it to be very strong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoderm
I finagled in 3 Sinkholes cause I was having a hard time with Rishadan Ports and opposing Wastelands lying in wait for combo lands. I replaced the Hymns with Thoughtsieze just to make sure and hate out the haters.
Also I added a single Tombstalker as a wish target for added pressure on combo and decks I know cant handle a Tomby. And lastly I added two Drop of Honey to the board for similar situations one would play Ensnaring Bridge.
Basically I took out the white splash as I am not sure I want to get those cards yet.
many mono black pox players shun the fetches as a shuffle enabler for the top because they deem the life loss adds up especially with daddy pox in the line up or if you're also running thoughtseizes..but with black sun's zenith as a pseudo shuffle enabler? hmmm, at first glance it seems a bit mana intensive even if you're only going to cast it for :0::b::b: and top is quite mana intensive already in a deck that is designed to run on very few resources..i haven't tested it; but to be honest, i like the sound of it..Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
supposing we try it? which card's slot do you think BSZ and SDT will replace in the main?
One Night of Souls' Betrayal and one uh, hmm, I'm stuck lol... :cry:Quote:
Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag