All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

"Assuming lands in the yard" ... so how exactly are you getting those Mountains in the yard again? Moving to discard? I should have posted some context, Blood Moon was in reference to DRS being shoved in blue decks. You are abysmally ignorant if you think a fast turn one / turn two blood moon does "stone nothing" against a DRS. they get 1 fetch in the yard? You know what a fetchland does with Blood Moon out? "Stone nothing".

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T1 Blood Moon? So I guess now we're playing SSG or Lotus Petals in this hypothetical Legacy Blood Moon deck?

I play a lot of Blood Moon in Modern. My deck of choice is a 7-Moon and Chalice stax-esque control build. Deathrite Shaman is one of the most problematic cards versus Moons because, yeah, sometimes--often--there are lands in the yard. Even when playing a ton of Moon effects you don't always get them early, and in a fetchland-heavy format like Modern or Legacy there are likely going to be several in the yard within the first few turns. Blood Moon doesn't turn off non-basics, it turns them into mountains. If all you need is one or two colors for a spell (which describes pretty much every played card) then a basic plus DRS--and frequently just DRS by itself--is enough to get through a Moon to resolve at least a few spells.

It's true that DRS decks tend to have really greedy manabases, but carefully fetching a basic or two before a Blood Moon resolves largely gets around that. Obviously if you get the Blood Moon down first you're in great shape, but it's hard to guarantee resolving a three-mana enchantment before your opponent has an opportunity to fetch a land.

It was silly of me to point out the symmetry of Pyroclasm, I concede that point--obviously any other removal works just fine too. The other cards you mentioned, though, are really marginal. Two-mana Ground Seal is terrible when there's much better graveyard hate available, and although Cursed Totem and Suppression Field are great cards they can only fit into a few very niche decks. My "slows down" comment about Suppression Field is due to a personal bias that the card only works well in durdly control decks, where the DRS opponent will have time to develop mana and pay 2 for whatever (I was thinking mainly of the Life Loss ability, of course)--not to mention draw their Abrupt Decay, which brings me to:

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You then dismiss all permanent based solutions based on the fact that one for one permanent removal exists.

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Abrupt Decay is a huge problem for any strategy that relies on permanents. I've tested permanent-based control strategies (especially counterbalance) vs. DRS enough to know that they will always draw the Decay eventually. (And those are the sorts of decks that will bring in permanent-based hate.) Before it existed, artifacts and enchantments were a lot more resilient. It's not so much that removal exists per se (disenchant effects have been around since always)--it's the versatility that Abrupt Decay brings to the table, making it an auto-4x in any BG DRS deck (so I'm not so much talking about 4c Deathblade here--but even they run a few copies!). Why do you think counterbalance has had such a hard time in the format lately?

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Originally Posted by Dzra

The reason straight aggro doesn't exist isn't because it is bad per say; it is because of the efficiency in Legacy. I don't need to play a Wild Nacatl deck full of creatures, lose to combo, and have uncontrollable topdecks when I can play a Delver based deck, kill almost as quickly, have good combo MUs, and a ton of library manipulation. If I want to be even faster than a Delver deck, pure aggro still isn't my answer. At that point, I should be playing combo. Red as a color is pretty underpowered, so it's fine to want some power creep, but if you are asking for an aggro deck to be just as fast as a combo deck then that is entirely unreasonable.

Also, since people decide to call for a Brainstorm banning now and again... Brainstorm promotes format diversity and is a fun and skill-testing card. Tons of archtypes are playable because of the manipulation that Brainstorm provides. If you are some duder calling for Brainstorm to be banned, take a moment and think about whether it's because you actually think the format would be a better place or if you just don't want to shell out for Blue duals.

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Because Preordain and Ponder do not? Portent is a much more skill intensive card than brainstorm, as it isn't easy as shit to use compared to brainstorm 90% of the cases (draw three, put worst 2 on top, shuffle, wow so hard). The only difference is in power level, and being an instant hoses discard a lot. Blue would still be the dominant color in the format, you'd just have slightly less efficient blue combo because of how better would thoughtseize and Hymn be against it instead of seeing 3 lands and whiffing.

You can repeat that mantra of being skill-testing and fun as many times as you want, one is not true, and the other is subjective. Seriously, the best play is so much clearer with BS compared to something like Ponder, Preordain or Portent. Just by being an instant you also completely remove the branch decision tree about leaving mana open for eventual counters or cantrip.

Brainstorm promotes a diversity of blue-based decks. That is all.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

If you are some duder calling for Brainstorm to be banned, take a moment and think about whether it's because you actually think the format would be a better place or if you just don't want to shell out for Blue duals.

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If you are some duder calling for brainstorm to remain legal, take a moment and think about whether it's because the card is a healthy addition to the format, or it's just your pet card.

I'm not really in either camp, myself. I just think it's funny how some people love blue/brainstorm sooo much that they don't see any problem with it being in 90% of the top decks. "Blue is historically the best color. Deal with it."

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Originally Posted by Star|Scream

If you are some duder calling for brainstorm to remain legal, take a moment and think about whether it's because the card is a healthy addition to the format, or it's just your pet card.

I'm not really in either camp, myself. I just think it's funny how some people love blue/brainstorm sooo much that they don't see any problem with it being in 90% of the top decks. "Blue is historically the best color. Deal with it."

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Brainstorm adds more paths to the decision tree. It is a skill intensive card that provides so much fun.

And it is not restricted to a single archetype, because is played by a variety of archetypes (combo, tempo, control, etc).

I don't want to sound childish but If WotC ban Brainstorm in legacy I will quit the game, simple!

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Originally Posted by warai

Brainstorm adds more paths to the decision tree. It is a skill intensive card that provides so much fun.

And it is not restricted to a single archetype, because is played by a variety of archetypes (combo, tempo, control, etc).

I don't want to sound childish but If WotC ban Brainstorm in legacy I will quit the game, simple!

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Yeah, that doesn't sound like it's a pet card or anything...

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Originally Posted by Star|Scream

If you are some duder calling for brainstorm to remain legal, take a moment and think about whether it's because the card is a healthy addition to the format, or it's just your pet card.

I'm not really in either camp, myself. I just think it's funny how some people love blue/brainstorm sooo much that they don't see any problem with it being in 90% of the top decks. "Blue is historically the best color. Deal with it."

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While it is sort of unfortunate that the Brainstorm deck is so dominant, it doesn't look like WotC wants to ban the most prevalent deck in the format. The Brainstorm Deck will just have to remain legal for now.

Has anyone else started the "skill intensive", "skill tester" drinking game yet?

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Originally Posted by lochlan

T1 Blood Moon? So I guess now we're playing SSG or Lotus Petals in this hypothetical Legacy Blood Moon deck?

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Are you trolling or do you live in a cave with your only internet access to this site and StarCitygames.com? Have you never seen Imperial Painter in action? Dragon Stompy?

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Abrupt Decay is a huge problem for any strategy that relies on permanents.

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I and everyone else who can read agree that AD is fantastic at removing low CC permanents. But again an early blood moon reduces the "castability" of said AD like no other perm based answer. People don't really explore good answers to AD (and all other targeted removal); like Spellskite or Apostle's Blessing though and they are just left to throw their hands up and say -- permanents suck.

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

Are you trolling or do you live in a cave with your only internet access to this site and StarCitygames.com? Have you never seen Imperial Painter in action? Dragon Stompy?



I and everyone else who can read agree that AD is fantastic at removing low CC permanents. But again an early blood moon reduces the "castability" of said AD like no other perm based answer. People don't really explore good answers to AD (and all other targeted removal); like Spellskite or Apostle's Blessing though and they are just left to throw their hands up and say -- permanents suck.

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Permanents disagree: They swing at the fools for 108.

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

Has anyone else started the "skill intensive", "skill tester" drinking game yet?

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I was playing it all along. I got drunk 2 weeks ago and haven't recovered yet.

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

While it is sort of unfortunate that the Brainstorm deck is so dominant, it doesn't look like WotC wants to ban the most prevalent deck in the format. The Brainstorm Deck will just have to remain legal for now.

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I was trying to figure out how to post something like this. I hope one day they wake up and ban a piece from the dominant Polluted Delta deck.

Every once in a while I return to this thread, and find that people are still discussing the banning of Brainstorm. Just think about it for a second. Legacy is full of sick shit and brilliant cards. If people don't like to play with - or against - brilliant cards that do rediculously overpowered stuff, we have the perfect format for them: Modern! That's a sweet little format in which every card that does stuff that seems even borderline useful is banned. Enjoy your marginal upgrade from playing limited, and let us deal with the sick overpowered rediculousness of Legacy. Please. [/stop ranting]

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

Every once in a while I return to this thread, and find that people are still discussing the banning of Brainstorm. Just think about it for a second. Legacy is full of sick shit and brilliant cards. If people don't like to play with - or against - brilliant cards that do rediculously overpowered stuff, we have the perfect format for them: Modern! That's a sweet little format in which every card that does stuff that seems even borderline useful is banned. Enjoy your marginal upgrade from playing limited, and let us deal with the sick overpowered rediculousness of Legacy. Please. [/stop ranting]

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Then we can unban gush and ancestral recall too, right? I mean they do ridiculously overpowered stuff too.

My point is that there's always a line in the sand between broken and balanced. A lot of people believe blue cards like Brainstorm and Show & Tell cross that line. Others don't. There are many people who would welcome unbanning gush or perhaps even power in Legacy. . But to argue that your line is the only correct one is absurd. The only way to come to a consensus is through discussion of the subject.

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Originally Posted by Star|Scream

My point is that there's always a line in the sand between broken and balanced. A lot of people believe blue cards like Brainstorm and Show & Tell cross that line. Others don't. There are many people who would welcome unbanning gush or perhaps even power in Legacy. . But to argue that your line is the only correct one is absurd. The only way to come to a consensus is through discussion of the subject.

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Blue as a color does two things well: manipulate draws and counter spells. The reason the top 16 of tournaments is always full of Brainstorm decks is because many, if not most, of the top players want to give themselves as many opportunities during a game as they can to make good plays. This is very simple, but some people never seem to understand. Brainstorm isn't good. The player is good. If the player has no or few decisions then his skill cannot be fully utilized. Brainstorm gives the player a very high number of decisions to work with.

Show and Tell is another thing entirely. It falls into one of Blue's auxiliary roles: "manipulating the normal rules of the game." Honestly, I'm surprised that Show and Tell hasn't been dominating the format. But guess what... it hasn't. The last Show and Tell deck to place top 16 was two weeks ago and it didn't even break into the top 8. Maverick won that tournament.

Unlike Brainstorm, Gush would fit into two types of decks. Tempo and combo. I've personally never played with the card, but I trust people who think it is strong enough to warp the format. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say they wanted Power in Legacy.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

Blue as a color does two things well: manipulate draws and counter spells. The reason the top 16 of tournaments is always full of Brainstorm decks is because many, if not most, of the top players want to give themselves as many opportunities during a game as they can to make good plays. This is very simple, but some people never seem to understand. Brainstorm isn't good. The player is good. If the player has no or few decisions then his skill cannot be fully utilized. Brainstorm gives the player a very high number of decisions to work with.

Show and Tell is another thing entirely. It falls into one of Blue's auxiliary roles: "manipulating the normal rules of the game." Honestly, I'm surprised that Show and Tell hasn't been dominating the format. But guess what... it hasn't. The last Show and Tell deck to place top 16 was two weeks ago and it didn't even break into the top 8. Maverick won that tournament.

Unlike Brainstorm, Gush would fit into two types of decks. Tempo and combo. I've personally never played with the card, but I trust people who think it is strong enough to warp the format. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say they wanted Power in Legacy.

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You're missing the point entirely.

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Originally Posted by Star|Scream

The only way to come to a consensus is through discussion of the subject.

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The topic of a Brainstorm ban has been discussed to death and a consensus has never been reached. You're either with Brainstorm or you're against it at this point; WotC clearly feels that Brainstorm enables enough different archetypes to count as an important pillar of the format. Continuing to rehash the same tired arguments about whether Brainstorm is good or bad for Legacy is not going to get us anywhere.

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Originally Posted by Star|Scream

Then we can unban gush and ancestral recall too, right? I mean they do ridiculously overpowered stuff too.

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And for those cards we have Vintage. If we banned Brainstorm, then the only format to play it would be Vintage as a restricted card. Most people seem to enjoy casting Brainstorm, so let them have it here. Go play Modern if you feel like you're being oppressed by blue 1 mana instants.

I wonder how many less people would be complaining about Brainstorm if dual lands were more accessible.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

I wonder how many less people would be complaining about Brainstorm if dual lands were more accessible.

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1) Not many
and
2) Who gives a fuck?


SO...with a GP coming up, how about an unbanned Earthcraft for funsies? :)