[Deck] The Rock

I hope to keep this talk about Sculler alive, because I have had some great success using it. To summarize why I like it:

1) It's pure tempo, regardless of what happens. Even if all you do is delay them for a turn or make them waste a removal/Spell Snare, he's got value. Answered, he's tempo. Unanswered he's tempo AND pressure.

2) When you place him next to other, more significant threats he tends to stick around. Do they kill Bob or Sculler? Goyf or Sculler? Deathrite or Sculler? I have never viewed him in a vaccuum, you can't play him that way. He's a team-player, making turns where you can combine him with other strong plays *amazing*. Too often people view disruptive plays purely in how they operate alone. If i'm a boxer, I don't count on every punch being a haymaker. Sometimes I put a combination of swings together that add up to more than a haymaker. You can call it synergy if you want, but honestly Sculler can be good if you know how to use him.

3) He fills in the 2-mana hand disruption curve nicely between Thoughtseize and Liliana. Hymn to Tourach also does this, but Hymn to tourach sucks ass when top-decked in the late game. Sculler top-decked in the late game becomes a Grizzly Bear if their hand is empty. If it isn't, you might be able to establish a little bit of inevitability because you are denying them a card and applying pressure.

4) Reminder: combo-heavy metagame. He excells against most of the combo decks I face, and does decently against the fair decks, too.

5) So many people miss, or ignore, this comment I have made about him (both here and elsewhere): if he isn't good in the matchup, you now have an easy 3 flex spots to utilize for your sideboard. In a deck already crammed to the brim with good stuff plays vying for space, it's refreshing to have a black & white (pun intended) decision that will help you work your sideboard.

That's where I'm at right now with Sculler. In both tournaments i played them, I loved them.

EDIT: someone mentioned missing consistency when dropping SDT's...I'm in the same boat, I worked one into my maindeck by dropping the Jitte to the sideboard again. I am enjoying it, even as a singleton, alongside the 2 Libraries. Now I just need to close a few trades/deals so I can get more Goyfs into the deck. I want at least 2, but 3 would be ideal I think.

I agree with Mr safety on the point that disrupt does not play alone. A suceful hymn to tourach will do nothing if you don't have a good follow-up. Same goes to sculler, in the sense that if you are using him for a 1 to 1 trade that may eventually beat if the board is clear, he is a "deluxe thoughtseize" - for the same cost, gerrard's veredict does more. But if you contextualize him in a situation where your opponent can't afford to find a removal to deal with him, he is great.

Personally, I adore Sculler; I think I will cut my Inquisition slots for two of him. And the synergy argument is totally correct: we aren't fishbowling, we play against opponents who interact with our deck.

Even if he eats removal, I say sculler is still great. And against non-combo decks I would take their removal anyway.

Splitting posts due to phone limitations...
Just a remark about the lingering souls version: there are decks that are more resistant to the attrition that this deck tries to create.... What I mean is, if we can beat decks like jund in the early stages it's ok. On the late game, we need a lot of luck. Same goes to nic-fit... On the late game, the few situations I could win was because he bricked in lands.
I'm currently searching for one of these two options: 1) finding a way to emerge from a bad situation i.e. a card that can turn tides on itself (maybe a planeswalker like elspeth on the sideboard?) OR a way to make the traditional build less susceptible to the tons of removal we are facing nowadays (after a lot of testing, sejiri steppe is a crappy card on this deck).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Petree

I completely understand he wasn't trying to be offense, lay of the brothers grill....

Ian, I was doing the same thing until i realized that I actually like having more bodies to put in play and drs isnt completely dead if i draw it late compared to the mox where it would be a dead draw or didn't matter no more. Then I tried playing 2/2 split of drs and mox then 3/3 and i liked it but way too many of my utilities disappeared and I didn't like that also. I mean you can try it out. I will say that I have started playing stf again also just because batterskull is a bitch to deal with lol ask any jund player, bug player or even esper, ant players and burn players also have a hard time dealing with it.

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Sorry, I wasn't trying to pick on him/her. It's something that bothers me to no end, regardless of the person. That's why I always comment on it. On to the other stuff.

I haven't tried adjusting the Mox count too much. It's been either three or zero. I've felt like it'd be too many to have a 4th Mox and not enough to matter with 1 or 2. That could be interesting to test. I don't like the idea of having +4 mana fixers. That seems like too many mid-game cards that don't do enough. 5 is probably the highest I'd go and I'm not a all that comfortable with that.

I've tried all the counts of Shaman however, I've only gone up to 2 with Shaman. I'm not as big a fan as most are with the card but I think it preforms to its expectation. I find myself not wanting to take advantage of multiples as I want to do other things with my mana most of the time. I almost feel like I want a second but I didn't see it preforming better than the other things I've got right now.

The thing about the late-game is that there are enough things that help me avoid/use late-game bad draws that it usually isn't an issue. I run 7 permanent card advantage/selection pieces (Bob, Library, Top, etc) alongside 2 Liliana so be it fodder to save something else in hand or saving life from bob, mox finds a way to be useful. It's also a nice thing to bait other people's discard from time to time.

Here's my current list for reference.

1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Abrupt Decay

4 Thoughtseize
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Sylvan Library

3 Mox Diamond
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

2 Liliana of the Veil

1 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Sideboard

1 Duress
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thalia, Gaudian of Threban
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Golgari Charm
2 Hymn to Tourach

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Just a bit of my opinion on something that's being mentioned regarding combo - There is no such thing as bad discard unless their win is already on the field or you've destroyed their hand (0 cards) with Liliana on the field keeping it destroyed. We don't run burn (emergency reach) so yes a creature is a good thing, when their hand is under control. The thing is that unless you're running Liliana, have her active and, have their hand under control, no creature is enough on it's own.

Discard is a HUGE part of any combination of punches we assemble (just using the analogy, not attacking it). It's nice to have the creature but by no means is a late game draw of discard (targeted or random) bad. This is especially true if they've had a chance to potentially recover their hand from the initial discard.

All of this portion is with or without Sculler.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by damionblackgear

Sorry, I wasn't trying to pick on him/her. It's something that bothers me to no end, regardless of the person. That's why I always comment on it. On to the other stuff.

I haven't tried adjusting the Mox count too much. It's been either three or zero. I've felt like it'd be too many to have a 4th Mox and not enough to matter with 1 or 2. That could be interesting to test. I don't like the idea of having +4 mana fixers. That seems like too many mid-game cards that don't do enough. 5 is probably the highest I'd go and I'm not a all that comfortable with that.

I've tried all the counts of Shaman however, I've only gone up to 2 with Shaman. I'm not as big a fan as most are with the card but I think it preforms to its expectation. I find myself not wanting to take advantage of multiples as I want to do other things with my mana most of the time. I almost feel like I want a second but I didn't see it preforming better than the other things I've got right now.

The thing about the late-game is that there are enough things that help me avoid/use late-game bad draws that it usually isn't an issue. I run 7 permanent card advantage/selection pieces (Bob, Library, Top, etc) alongside 2 Liliana so be it fodder to save something else in hand or saving life from bob, mox finds a way to be useful. It's also a nice thing to bait other people's discard from time to time.

Here's my current list for reference.

1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Abrupt Decay

4 Thoughtseize
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Sylvan Library

3 Mox Diamond
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

2 Liliana of the Veil

1 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Sideboard

1 Duress
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thalia, Gaudian of Threban
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Golgari Charm
2 Hymn to Tourach

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Just a bit of my opinion on something that's being mentioned regarding combo - There is no such thing as bad discard unless their win is already on the field or you've destroyed their hand (0 cards) with Liliana on the field keeping it destroyed. We don't run burn (emergency reach) so yes a creature is a good thing, when their hand is under control. The thing is that unless you're running Liliana, have her active and, have their hand under control, no creature is enough on it's own.

Discard is a HUGE part of any combination of punches we assemble (just using the analogy, not attacking it). It's nice to have the creature but by no means is a late game draw of discard (targeted or random) bad. This is especially true if they've had a chance to potentially recover their hand from the initial discard.

All of this portion is with or without Sculler.

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If you are just using 1 goyf, why not use scavenging ooze. You should have that for life gain, for gy removal, and to battle deathrite shamans.

If you're looking to go big and you don't have to worry about Punishing Fires, you just run Sigarda and/or Garruk Relentless. Relentless is a fucking tank, Abrupt Decay or not.

-Matt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

If you are just using 1 goyf, why not use scavenging ooze. You should have that for life gain, for gy removal, and to battle deathrite shamans.

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I've been so unhappy with Ooze's performance that I think I'd get more from Squire (this is sarcasm to express my extreme disappointment). --> This <-- should sum it up as far as words (arrows because I couldn't see the link).

How's the SnT matchup with this? :) Really tempted to build this...

Seems generally favorable, since you can combat their early SnT with Knight of the Reliquary to fetch Karakas. Past that they are weak to discard, and you back up the discard with pressure from Goyf or Knight to end the game before they can recover. Mainboard Liliana helps as removal against a Show and Told Emrakul.

Not sure about Omniscience Tell because I don't have experience against that deck.

Really depends on the build. Knight/Karakas is very key in the matchup (even against the Omniscience versions since they'll be dropping Emrakul or Griselbrand half the time). Liliana is also good for dealing with fatties.

Post-board, depends on your sideboard. Discard is always useful but Leyline of Sanctity is popular in those types of decks these days. Oblivion Ring is in general your best friend against Show & Tell decks. Ethersworn Canonist isn't great but does keep you from dying to Omniscience (immediately, at least).

Golgari Charm, Qasali Pridemgae, Oblivion Ring, Pithing Needle, Sigarda, and Knight are all great cards against Show and Tell, and we have access to them.

The matchup is, I'd say, pretty even.

-Matt

Had some moderate success with my SFM+Lingering Souls build in casuals yesterday, tested against Esperblade and a BG Goodstuff brew. I think SFM + Lingering Souls can give you a very strong advantage versus other grindy, attrition decks. Sometimes t1 Thoughtseize, t2 Stoneforge + Batterskull just won on the spot. Other games, I had to rely on Lingering Souls and DRS to get me there, allowing me to deal "damage" while commiting very little to the board. I really don't think I'll be going back to KoTR + GSZ unless the meta turns to be less grindy and more combo.

@ Arsenal: could you post your list? I'm very curious :)

It's a few pages back, but this is what I'm rolling with:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

2 Sylvan Library

3 Liliana of the Veil

3 Lingering Souls
4 Thoughtseize

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay

1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Scrubland
4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats

Sideboard:

2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Choke
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Pithing Needle
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Darkblast

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sherko7

How's the SnT matchup with this? :) Really tempted to build this...

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Rape their hand, GG. I have played 2 tournament matches against SnT/Omniscience, and I haven't dropped a game yet. One more place that Sculler shines. Sideboard in Surgical Extraction and Gaddock Teeg for the Petals of Insight chain.

Sneak Attack is a different animal though, but it operates the same for the most part. Make sure you have something for permanents like Pulse/Vindicate/Pridemage, and have decent access to it. If it were in my meta, I'd be playing a Pridemage in the board.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sughayyer

Splitting posts due to phone limitations...
Just a remark about the lingering souls version: there are decks that are more resistant to the attrition that this deck tries to create.... What I mean is, if we can beat decks like jund in the early stages it's ok. On the late game, we need a lot of luck. Same goes to nic-fit... On the late game, the few situations I could win was because he bricked in lands.
I'm currently searching for one of these two options: 1) finding a way to emerge from a bad situation i.e. a card that can turn tides on itself (maybe a planeswalker like elspeth on the sideboard?) OR a way to make the traditional build less susceptible to the tons of removal we are facing nowadays (after a lot of testing, sejiri steppe is a crappy card on this deck).

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NO-Pro in the board is my solution. Just putting that out there. I didn't pull the trigger on it during the last tournament, but I definately will for the next one. Trade 1-for-1 against attrition decks like Jund/Nic-Fit, then get your Proggy in for 2 turns and win. It's rough with Bobs, but I have been siding out Bobs for NO-Pro in testing.

For SnT I've been using a second karakas + 2 orings in the side and my new personal favorite SB Tech:

Crop Rotation! So the cards known, and it isn't new, but I really enjoy it. I've beaten ANT's past in flames kill countless times with an instant bojuka bog. Works well to get rid of dredge's engine and get your karakas for SnT

@ safety

I like NO, but I have very few green creatures. As I said before, lately I've been playing with souls+mystic. To go the hydra route, I'd have to add zenith, arbor, etc. Unless I make a transformative sideboard, but then I think I'll dead lose to high tide (and there were 2 last time... It seems all the decks I don't want to play against come in pairs)

Looking for help with the sideboard of my SFM + Souls list (plus the rest of the list, but I think it's otherwise pretty down pat at this point). The sideboard is a remnant of when it was B/W and I'm sure Green gives some fancy answers that I don't have.

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Lingering Souls

4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

3 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard:

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Warmth
1 Serenity
1 Humility
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Umezawa's Jitte


My meta is mostly Wasteland-y decks like Jund and RUG Delver, with relatively high proportions of Show and Tell, Burn, and Miracles. Other combo decks are around, but Show and Tell decks are everywhere.