Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
We are going back to the TC meta, just that this time it's DTT the card that's warping the format and the deck strategies. If you guys look at some of those Grixis decks they can power up a DTT as soon as turn 3 with countermagic and removal backup, and once they resolve the first other will come and it's extremely difficult to stop it. I wouldn't say that line of play is particularly worrying for Death and Taxes, but it's certainly a strategy that can very easily outtrade us through sheer card advantage, just like we had trouble against many TC based decks way back when it was legal, even in matchups that are usually very favorable, like Patriot and UR Delver.
That of course is very problematic, people have finally figured out that DTT is an absolutely busted card that can do basically the same stuff as TC but even better because it's an instant and it's much, much better at digging backbreaking silver bullets or clutch spells to hand you the matchup in a silver platter. Want TNN and Jitte combo on demand? DTT has you covered! Opponent is playing DTT too? Get some red blasts, they're free! You got your nice equipment + creature + Mom setup nearly online and ready to smash the next turn? Get a Terminus and a Brainstorm and make it all go away no problem.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Considering DTT has a very good chance of getting banhammered in about a week, I don't think it's worth getting your panties in a bunch over it yet.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I've been away from Magic for a while now, and since I got back (1~2 weeks ago), I saw Death and Taxes splashing red and green.
Cmon guys, can we make the dream of AEther Vial + Imperial Recruiter + SFM + Knight of the Reliquary + Gaddock Teeg + Thalia happen?
Probably 24 lands with 1~2 basics, but it should work.
Pros:
+ Imperial Recruiter would fetch everything but Flickerwisp.
+ Knight is beef (DnT somewhat lacks a Tarmogoyf sized creature).
+ Teeg is great against matchups we usually struggle against (Miracles and Elves).
+ Red can open up our removal possibilities with Lightning Bolt (after Swords to Plowshares, of course).
Cons:
- Unstable/Greedy Manabase.
- Rest in Peace is weaker (due to KotR).
- Unable to run Magus of the Moon (due to 3-colored manabase).
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
My first loss was to Jund which was a close match where I tried my hardest but that match up is just not winnable.
I was very demoralized.
I then played against miracles in the following round and the first game I mulligan and keep 2 plains, Karakas, 2 Swords to Plowshares and Mirran Crusader. I am on the draw and my opponent goes Sensei's Divining Top into Counterbalance and I have only drawn lands at that point so I just scoop on turn 3.
Next game I have a normal draw and completely crush him. The third game I have an OK hand and I start grinding and the game is going well, 3 Terminus later I have control over the game and he is down to just lands, a top and 1 card. The card is Dig Through Time. He finds more action, he has gone through 2 Vensers and 4 Swords to Plowshares. And again he's down to his last card, I have Stoneforge with Batterskull in hand he has destroyed my Jitte and Sword of Fire and Ice and his last card is Dig Through Time again that he draws and play main phase. I think for a while and decide to play around Concil's Judgement rather than a second Vendilion Clique. He finishes resolving Dig Through Time and at the end of his turn (when I activate stoneforge) he has the second Vendilion Clique. He bottoms batterskull and I never find it again. It was a mistake I think, that I played around Council's Judgement. And I would've won for sure if I had just played around the 2nd Vendilion Clique.
Then in round 6 I play against Gold Digger. And at this point I am feeling super shitty about being 3-2 and I basically already counted myself out of the GP.
I easily crush him game 1. Game 2 he kills my first couple of creatures and I am stuck with 4 lands in hand and nothing on turn 3. I grind my way back in the game after getting flooded super hard and eventually I draw gas. He is down to less than 15 cards in his library after 4 Dig Through Times before I lose and I have yet to see a vial even though I went through more than half my deck as well. The next game I don't have Vial either and I am stuck on 2 lands and he plays Jace while I still have 5 cards and 2 lands and I can't play my cards fast enough to keep myself in the game.
So I lost to Jund which I believe is the absolute worst match up for the red splash (I also lost to Jund in the sideevent on Sunday). And then I lost to Dig Through Time. I didn't expect to lose to Miracles and especially not Gold Digger but without Dig Through Time that wouldn't have happened either.
If Dig Through Time is not banned I expect that I will start calling D&T my "pet deck" instead of being a deck I take seriously and play competitively.
The fact that no Death and Taxes decks did well at GP Lille reinforces me in that opinion.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Are you still of the opinion that the Red Splash is the best overall version of the deck? It seems the most broadly powerful, although it also seems the slowest of pure white and GW splash.
I'm mostly interested because my meta is infested with blue decks and Elves and for the life of me I hate Elves!
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Pick Imperial Painter with 8 blasts MD ;-) if your meta is so bad.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
@Bahra: Thank you for writing something candid and honest. It's a refreshing change of pace for the Source IMO.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Sorry to hear Bahra went 3-3 with red Death and Taxes. Bahra, did you have any byes?
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Patrunkenphat7
Sorry to hear Bahra went 3-3 with red Death and Taxes. Bahra, did you have any byes?
I had no byes.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Keep your head up brother, we all have shitty showings.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bahra
The fact that no Death and Taxes decks did well at GP Lille reinforces me in that opinion.
What placing do you consider for a deck to do well? The Exemplar for D&T finished 44th ahead of Elves, Shardless, Merfolk
He is on 33 points (11-4 I guess) which is 1 win away form being top 16.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/c...sts-2015-07-05
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Mats went 7-2 day one and startet 4-0 day two but lost last two. One on camera
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bahra
If Dig Through Time is not banned I expect that I will start calling D&T my "pet deck" instead of being a deck I take seriously and play competitively.
The fact that no Death and Taxes decks did well at GP Lille reinforces me in that opinion.
I know a lot of posters here will dismiss this comment as something said in frustration after an unlucky tournament, but I have been feeling this way for a while. However, since I am not an established tournament player, I've been reluctant to say it because I would have been condescendingly told that I'm not playing the deck "right". I genuinely think that this deck was one of the strongest, if not the strongest in the meta until a couple of years ago. But other decks have evolved and gotten so many new powerful cards (hello, TNN) in the meantime while we are more or less stuck in the same place. Treasure cruise before and now Dig Through Time are really pushing us out of tier1 status, imo. Matchups that were traditionally very favorable (RUG, Sneak and Show) have been replaced by either even (BUG, Grixis) or unfavorable ones (Omni-Tell), and even decks that we used to crush carelessly have now learned how to play against us and adjusted their maindecks and sideboards accordingly.
Fortunately, I do think that Dig Through Time will soon get the axe, just like TC before it: the meta is just too homogenous and, frankly, boring right now. But until it doesn't, I wouldn't bring this deck to a large tournament and expect to do particularly well...
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Luca Grease
But other decks have evolved and gotten so many new powerful cards (hello, TNN) in the meantime while we are more or less stuck in the same place. Treasure cruise before and now Dig Through Time are really pushing us out of tier1 status, imo. Matchups that were traditionally very favorable (RUG, Sneak and Show) have been replaced by either even (BUG, Grixis) or unfavorable ones (Omni-Tell), and even decks that we used to crush carelessly have now learned how to play against us and adjusted their maindecks and sideboards accordingly.
Reminds me of this quote from Jim Davis on his article talking about the death of Goblins
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Davis
Cavern of Souls made our very good matchup against blue decks even better, and for a while the deck saw a mild resurgence.
However, every other deck got wave after wave of good new cards. First it was Stoneforge Mystic and Batterskull, which was beatable with Tin Street Hooligan. Then came Emrakul, the Eons torn (and later Omniscience), which powered up the Show and Tell combo decks. After that Delver of Secrets gave blue decks a way to actually kill us quickly, which was often their biggest problem. Then came Deathrite Shaman, a Birds of Paradise almost any deck could play that for some unfathomable reason is a 1/2 and not a 1/1. After that the legend rule changed, and Elves got much more powerful Gaea's Cradles and Craterhoof Behemoth. Then came Abrupt Decay.
Still, we endured. Matchups that were once very easy were still favorable, but we had to work harder and harder for each win.
Then they printed True Name Nemesis
I really hope Death and Taxes doesn't become the next "Goblins", but if the blue decks keep getting more and more toys which make them faster and with more ways to outgrind us whilst we're left out in the dark...
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Hello,
Quick report with Imperial Tax @ GP Lille.
Round 1 vs Eternal Garden (Win 2/1)
G1= Magus equipped with SOFI sealed the deal
G2= EOT Marit Lage kicked my ass
G3= Same as G1
Round 2 vs Aggro Loam (Win 2/0)
G1= Early BSK with stone protected by Mom is enough
G2= Magus /kiss
Round 3 vs Burn (Loss 2/1)
G1= BSK for the win
G2= Flooded on land when my oppo was drawing gas
G3= Mull to 5. My only out was to play BSK when my oppo was @ 1 card in hand and it had to a "destructive revelry"
Round 4 vs BUG Delver (Win 2/0)
G1= Magus sealed the deal
G2= Same as G1
Round 5 vs Omni (loss 2/1)
G1= Lose
G2= Win with a T2 Cavern + Thalia
G3= Almost won that one after a mull to 5. Sudden shock on Canonist is real...
Round 6 vs Oops all spells (Win 2/1)
G1= lose without drawing my first card (lost the toss)
G2= Mother-> Thalia-> Canonist
G3= Chancellor of the Annex on T0, but luckily I had cavern in hands into Thalia G2 ! Ouch...
What a nightmare. I thought I was out of contention after the G1. But dream happens.
Round 7 vs Punishing Maverick (Loss 2/0)
G1= Made a couple of misplays which cost me a pretty easy game...
G2= Get flooded...
Drop.
Sunday -> @Bazar of Duals a friend borrowed the deck and went -> 5/1/1 and 650 BOM points.
Well, at least, somehow we made money.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I don't think we should be worried about getting a stream of new cards - Wizards loves white weenies and thus, hatebears. Whether or not they fit into your small frame of flex cards is a different topic.
That said, we should be hellbent on increasing the consistency of the deck as I still see it as one of our core problems. While blue decks can filter their crappy draws with cantrips, we're boned if our deck decides to give us crap.
I think we need to be more unconventional than before, like Bahra was with Magus of the Moon.
E.g. I wouldn't mind going deeper into green for Noble Hierarch, KotR and Sylvan Library (maybe even Evolutionary Leap) while still trying to strike a balance between colored and coloress lands. Is it going to suck? Probably - but we can't know until somebody tried to get the numbers right and has tested it throughly.
That, or joining the dark side with Brainstorm + other blue consistency tools without going full retard running :u::u: cards. Assuming Sensei's Divining Top doesn't get banned, I could see it being a thing alongside fetches/SFM - for all splashes. Roughly 20% (after calculating more exact numbers) of the meta run it on MODO, for example, which means in the rest of the 80%, it's fair game not be Revokered. And even then, we still have control over the point of time when we want to Revoker it.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
That said, we should be hellbent on increasing the consistency of the deck as I still see it as one of our core problems. While blue decks can filter their crappy draws with cantrips, we're boned if our deck decides to give us crap.
Imperial Recruiter increases the consistency of the deck and even nets you a tiny bit of card advantage, which is why I'm considering toying with 3 or even 4. These guys + stoneforge actually give the deck a decent amount of card selection in total and I don't feel disadvantaged vs someone durdling around with brainstorms and ponders. But that's only until they hit DTT.
I know legacy moves slowly, but I'm kinda surprised that it's taken this long for people to be ringing the bell. I just hope wizards has been paying enough attention to the format that we can stop talking about this in a week. The card isn't interesting or particularly skill testing and it just swings any game in the caster's direction w/ very little downside. It grants a fairly mindless combo deck a permanent spot in the top tier.
I want to test out a naya build but I don't think teeg is enough. The problem with 'answers' to fair decks playing DTT is that you're gambling on whether or not you'll hit them before they have time to cast DTT and that's a pretty bad gamble against any deck playing the full blue cantrip package.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lyracian
A Merfolk player placed 20th. That wasn't mentioned in the link.
I think DnT players should probably just wait and see what shakes out next Monday before we make any real statements. Pretty much what I'm doing.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
Imperial Recruiter increases the consistency of the deck and even nets you a tiny bit of card advantage, which is why I'm considering toying with 3 or even 4. These guys + stoneforge actually give the deck a decent amount of card selection in total and I don't feel disadvantaged vs someone durdling around with brainstorms and ponders. But that's only until they hit DTT.
I know legacy moves slowly, but I'm kinda surprised that it's taken this long for people to be ringing the bell. I just hope wizards has been paying enough attention to the format that we can stop talking about this in a week. The card isn't interesting or particularly skill testing and it just swings any game in the caster's direction w/ very little downside. It grants a fairly mindless combo deck a permanent spot in the top tier.
I want to test out a naya build but I don't think teeg is enough. The problem with 'answers' to fair decks playing DTT is that you're gambling on whether or not you'll hit them before they have time to cast DTT and that's a pretty bad gamble against any deck playing the full blue cantrip package.
Recruiter is decent (that's why I suggested it in the first place), but it's still slow and off-color. It can't fully address potential issues like mana flood/screw or failing to find certain cards like cantrips can.
Between fetches, SFM and Recruiters, the red splash should have enough shuffle effects to make good use of SDT. Fitting it in might be a pain in the ass, but given that it can even operate with our colorless mana is noteworthy. Recruiter chains or Recruiter --> SFM for SDT shuffling in the later stages in the game doesn't sound too bad.
But as Anarky87 said, we should wait until next Monday. I'd be suprised if DTT didn't get banhammered, while SDT could go either way.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Neither Dig Through Time nor SDT should get banned as they aren't inherently too powerful. Those Aggro Loam decks did very well because they both ran Teeg from a Zenith package. They didn't ultimately win the thing, but making top 8 at a GP is such an accomplishment anyway, you can't say those decks could really be improved. I'm sure both of the Aggro Loam pilots beat plenty of Miracles throughout their days to get to Top 8.
Teeg is just the way to go right now. After the results of Day 1, I added a third to my sideboard. Obviously, no card makes another card completely unusable all the time, but for all the flex spots that decks like Miracles don't care about since they don't add a wrench in their plans - Mirran Crusader, Brimaz, Serra Avenger - it's good to have more cards be attacking their value mechanics. Everything they play is a "must respond", so DnT's strategy ought to be, likewise, the same.
Jund is always going to be tough, and with all that Loam/Punishing Fire going on as well, Absolute Law looks VERY relevant.
