Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
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Originally Posted by
Morbid-
Sorry, I was barely around Day 2 and we were pretty much gone by the afternoon. Congrats on getting to Day 2. Would love to see a report as well.
I wouldn't worry about it, a lot of matches day two went really long into the 50 minutes so I didn't have much time to talk between rounds anyway. I'm very busy with class and work this week, so it won't be until at least next week if I do write a report. Right now I only want to write one if I can get it published online. I can get it published almost guaranteed, but I don't want to write for that site again at least for a while, or until my article doesn't get butchered in the editing process. :/
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3- Now that many merfolk decks are adopting Dismember, what should we do now that Peacekeeper is going to be less of a hard lock?
Sort of, but if you don't draw into Peacekeeper Dismember is straight awful against you. They also run 0 manipulation and only 4 cantrips (Adept) so the chance of them finding one is not that high if they don't have it. (most lists generally only play a pair) Jace sort of protects Peacekeeper in a way, I had a match where he Dismembered my first Peacekeeper, I cast Jace and Jacestormed into a second, then began fatesealing, leaving blue cards and lands on top of his library. Also, if they don't have Dismember they have to topdeck into it, giving you at least a few turns to try to find a counter for it. There will be times that they blow you out with Dismember, but even with decks having a couple answers to it she is still very good.
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Thrun should not be feared and metagamed at all.
This. People cast that card against me in Zoo and Team America all day and I didn't care about it, you have so many ways to deal with him. The only game I lost when Thrun hit the board was when I died with Humility in play at 11 life against Big Zoo. If you are that concerned about him, there are many good options to fight him: more Wraths/4cc enchantments, Innocent Blood/Edict, Perish, Phyrexian Metamorph (or whatever the Phyrexian mana clone is called).
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Is Dust Bowl the only good option I have for killing problem lands?
I run one in addition to a pair of Wastelands and it has performed well. It's a huge trump in the control/midrange matchup.
On the topic of UGB/x vs UW: I've been playing Ugbw for a while leading up to the GP. I like it a lot, but I am not cutting white- Plow is just that good. After making that decision I ended up going to just UW, the manabase in 4 color is much more ambitious than UW and I expected boatloads of Team America/BUG and Merfolk. The current setup I've been running has been amazing against Wastelands, and good against Blood Moon/Back to Basics. (which don't come up that often, but it is nice) Choke is a problem I am working on, but sometimes you can play out of it depending on what lands you draw (this is with the particular setup I am running currently, most lists are hurt even more by it). One of my matches my opponent cast Choke when I had 14 lands in play, three were tapped Islands/Tundras and one was a Scalding Tarn. I was still able to activate Colonnade and smash for four, then activate Colonnade and double Factory and swing for lethal with my 10 non-Islands. I'm still looking for a card that answers it; bringing in a Disenchant/Seal of Cleansing is pretty awful against decks like Zoo or BGW.
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
For the Choke issue, I've been running Oblivion Ring to good effect in a non-Landstill UW list though you have to be careful against Pridemage. Otherwise Nevinyrral's Disk might be something to consider.
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
What does a light green splash (UWg) offer this deck? Would Life from the Loam be worth running?
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
What about Vindicate as a 1-2 of against green decks? It can act as removal for their dorks, and also remove Choke, Jace, Elspeths, etc. I remember UW/b Landstill (or was it Walker-still?) that used to run a couple to answer random permanents. Is it still a valid inclusion in the post-MM meta?
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Vindicate is always a good option, but for most reasons it's dropped because it's a 3 mana solution that is 1-1. EE@3 is costly but has the chance to pick off a couple more permanents along the way, for just 1 mana more, WoG/Humilty/Moat/Disk do a lot more. If I need outs against green decks, it'll be a black splash for Perish (which at the time was not popular when Ultimate Walker and Landstill variants were a little more popular). Perish costs the same as Vindicate but is enormous against Green matchups.
If you're considering the flexibility of Vindicate across matchups e.g. against TA/Planeswalker/Countertop etc, I still won't be playing Vindicate anytime soon. Playing with Vindicate is more than just playing with Vindicate, it involves changing quite a few more cards in the list to support it. Essentially, Landstill can't easily tap out to remove a threat with Vindicate the way other decks e.g. Junk can. You are playing a deck with Counterspell and while Junk has the initial knowledge from discard to know when to correctly time and maximize Vindicates, Landstill tapping out without knowledge or FoW in hand and playing Vindicate could be a costly decision, if not it would put you in the same situation again when your opponents drop another threat after you tapped out for Vindicate.
It's a little hard to explain this in words, but that had been my experience playing spells like Oring/Vindicate. They're great cards, but basically if I am making a risk to tap out to answer threats, they better be good answers e.g. Planeswalkers/Humility/Moat/Disk/WoG
@Shawn, I've been very satisfed with UWb with 8 fetch and 2/2 Island/Plains basics + 2 Top + 2 Disk maindeck. I play with my Imperial Painter buddy quite frequently and Disk makes the deck a whole lot resilient to Moons. I've never really played against Chokes, but I know that having 2 Plains and 8 fetches would allow for much easier EEs against Choke. For most parts, Choke is something that you have to primarily deal with from counterspells (if lists pack less than 3-4 Counterspells, then they deserved to be Choked!) But I'm sure you know all this, I think your challenge is figuring out answers for just a UW configuration. I've just been very satisfied with Disk. It functions like Deed for UW/UWx builds, and is much superior when you passed the turn v.s. passing the turn with Deed. It does not require a shaky manabase, which is usually how Landstill loses games against Wasteland+clocks. Also, I've changed my playstyle a little bit when playing with Deed. Basically I let things that don't tend to kill me or molest my manabase go past my counterspell, delay the onslaught till about turn 5-6, and Cast Disk with Counterspell/Snare/FoW backup (Snare aganst Pridemages), and then pop the Disk next turn if they have not dealt with it, I have countermagic up for their next threat.
@Drago: Loam is only good if you play Wasteland heavy builds, which I'm personally not a fan of. It works better in BUGstill because of 4 maindeck Deed giving the deck huge power against aggro decks, so they can afford to play with Wastelocks. In a deck like UWx, Wastelocking is a win-more strategy (if you're in the position to spend 1G a turn and a land drop to wastelock your opponents, it means that they have barely any threat in play to pressure you, which means that anything at this point could win games i.e. Planeswalkers/Factories/Standstills). For most parts, I vastly prefer Crucible anyways (if you played 1 Academy Ruins MD). When you get the two cards out naturally, it not only provides huge card advantage, but it is infinitely efficient on mana, and very resilient and deadly. Crucible gives you an out to situations where Planeswalkers sometimes cannot provide for this deck. You can choose to play Loam over Crucible, but there is a cost to both:
Loam: requires 1G every dredge, dredges precious 3 cards that would matter in the late game, requires you to play a green splash which doesn't offer much past Beast Within and Grips
Crucible: can be removed unlike Loam but other than that it's almost in every way superior from a mana-efficiency standpoint, not requiring to splash green.
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
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Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
What does a light green splash (UWg) offer this deck? Would
Life from the Loam be worth running?
Knightstill is pretty sweet. Getting the best cheap creatures in the game is nice, especially when you can Repeal/Jace them to your hand prior to dropping a Wrath. Also LfTL and Stirring Wildwood are good cards. Maybe Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree or Nantuko Monastery?
Depending on the build you could also run Eternal Witness which is an amazingly good control creature.
Oh, and Gigapede pretty much destroys the mirror.
And also Krosan Grip out of the board.
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
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Originally Posted by
TheInfamousBearAssassin
I would play with 4 Beast Within too, not because it hits opposing Jace, but when you have a combination of 4 KotR, 4 Wasteland, 4 Beast Within, your opponents can never get to cast their Jace. If they start topdecking lands like a champ, you might want to consider some Plow Unders to keep them setback while you draw more Beast Withins.
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
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Originally Posted by
TheInfamousBearAssassin
Oh, and
Gigapede pretty much destroys the mirror.
Holy shit, have I finally found a home for Gigapede!? Granted, he gets chump blocked like there is no tommorow, but he recurs nearly forever...
He doesn't play well with Humility though.
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
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Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
he gets chump blocked like there is no tommorow
Pretty much correct, especially against builds with Crucible of Worlds.
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Some UW/x lists are running the Mystic with Batterskull.
So... is it bad? Good? mediocre? Seems like there would be issues if the Mystic got killed, never mind the fact that we turn on all of our opponents removal when we run creatures. On the other hand, the mystic can vial in the batterskull...
Also, how decent of a substitute is Ratchet Bomb for EE?
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
StP their factories. Look, infinite chump blocking solved.
I mean it's been a while since the Landstill mirror was relevant but Gigapede pretty much used to run roughshod over it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Metalwalker
I would play with 4 Beast Within too, not because it hits opposing Jace, but when you have a combination of 4 KotR, 4 Wasteland, 4 Beast Within, your opponents can never get to cast their Jace. If they start topdecking lands like a champ, you might want to consider some Plow Unders to keep them setback while you draw more Beast Withins.
Also you are already dead because they have killed you with 3/3s.
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheInfamousBearAssassin
StP their factories. Look, infinite chump blocking solved.
I mean it's been a while since the Landstill mirror was relevant but Gigapede pretty much used to run roughshod over it.
Also you are already dead because they have killed you with 3/3s.
I know you love Gigapede, I'm pretty fond of it as well, but why would you elect to play such a narrow card just becuase its uncounterable? Elspeth is better in the mirror and while it can be countered, it is better against far more than just the mirror.
On Ratchet Bomb - That card is far too slow, it's no replacement for EE
On Stoneforge - It's still a control strategy, but it is a different approach to the idea of Landstill. It's good, in a control mirror and gives you some new options, but the cost is obviously that you won't be able to have the same control suite.
On Beast Within - a 3/3 is nothing to scoff at, even if you do get to kill a Jace in the process. To play even one, I'd want to have at least 3 Jace in the maindeck so you can be sure to bounce it immediately. But even then, Beast Within is a contingency plan for your opponent resolving a Jace, which really should be avoided at all costs.
On Knights - Really, you want to play 3-4 creatures in a deck with 0 creatures? That seems like your enabling what are otherwise dead cards for what isn't even that great of a utility card or finisher.
On Krosan Grip - What do you find yourself wanting to Grip?
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
What about boarding out the Mystic package post board so as to minimize the impact of Krosan Grip and their ilk and then switch it to a more classic control suite depending on the match up?
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Batterskull already turns on their creature removal. If one is to run creatures in Landstill, green for Goyf and Knight is definitely the way to go. Also, Repeal is great at saving Goyfs and to a lesser extent Knights from removal.
Personally, I recommend a list not too far removed from this;
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Island
1 Savannah
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Stirring Wildwood
1 Wasteland
1 Dust Bowl
1 Maze of Ith
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
3 Counterspell
3 Repeal
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Standstill
1 Life from the Loam
Sideboard:
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Yavimaya Hollow
4 Spell Pierce
2 Pithing Needle
3 Krosan Grip
3 Wrath of God
The mainboard is, spellwise, I think one or two card tweaks away from perfection. The manabase is where I've fluctuated the most. Utility and mana fixing have made me switch up the number of Stirring Wildwoods, Wastelands, Mishra's Factories, and Celestial Colonnades several times.
Yavimaya Hollow, before anyone asks, is a KoTR target to hose Deed-based decks.
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Originally Posted by
Master Shake
I know you love Gigapede, I'm pretty fond of it as well, but why would you elect to play such a narrow card just becuase its uncounterable? Elspeth is better in the mirror and while it can be countered, it is better against far more than just the mirror.
Well if I'm only dedicating a couple slots to a kill condition, I would prefer not to have to worry about protecting it, would be the general argument.
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On Stoneforge - It's still a control strategy, but it is a different approach to the idea of Landstill. It's good, in a control mirror and gives you some new options, but the cost is obviously that you won't be able to have the same control suite.
I think it's a strict upgrade on what was just fundamentally a weak strategy, which was Angel Control. Only Batterskull seems infinitely worse against a competent Goblins players than either Angel.
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On Krosan Grip - What do you find yourself wanting to Grip?
Artifacts and enchantments, mostly.
In seriousness, any numbers of things; Crucible/Factories in the mirror, Divining Tops, Deeds, equipment.
O-Ring might be better for the ability to snag Jaces though.
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master Shake
I know you love Gigapede, I'm pretty fond of it as well, but why would you elect to play such a narrow card just becuase its uncounterable? Elspeth is better in the mirror and while it can be countered, it is better against far more than just the mirror.
On Ratchet Bomb - That card is far too slow, it's no replacement for EE
On Stoneforge - It's still a control strategy, but it is a different approach to the idea of Landstill. It's good, in a control mirror and gives you some new options, but the cost is obviously that you won't be able to have the same control suite.
On Beast Within - a 3/3 is nothing to scoff at, even if you do get to kill a Jace in the process. To play even one, I'd want to have at least 3 Jace in the maindeck so you can be sure to bounce it immediately. But even then, Beast Within is a contingency plan for your opponent resolving a Jace, which really should be avoided at all costs.
On Knights - Really, you want to play 3-4 creatures in a deck with 0 creatures? That seems like your enabling what are otherwise dead cards for what isn't even that great of a utility card or finisher.
On Krosan Grip - What do you find yourself wanting to Grip?
Okay Shake, I thought IBA was fucking trolling with his Knightstill list so I commented playing 4 Beast Within as a joke. He mentions (seriously) that I lose to 3/3.
I guess sometimes I can't tell sarcasm and people can't tell if I'm sarcastic.
Just to clarify before I lose my mind, IBA are you serious with your Knightstill list or are you jokingly posting it?
Also, taking this list for today's tournament. Wish me luck! I hope 4 Bob + 3 Peacekeeper + SB Path + Humility has some chance against the Fishies:
61 UWb Landstill
24 Lands (+1 Edragon)
4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Eternal Dragon
2 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Standstill
1 Enlightened Tutor
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Nevinrryal's Disk
1 Humility (Need a fucking Moat although it's not so hot against Cliques and Tombstalkers which seem to be very popular and the main problems for Landstill so I'll go with Humility :))
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor (would love a third, let me know if you cut a Snare for the 3rd Jace, I'm still mixed on this due to playtesting results)
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
15 Sideboard
4 Dark Confidant (MD countersuite is fairly dense, ~13 counterspells, with 2 Negate + 2 Extirpate in the SB, Bob will try his best to outdraw and push the opponents out of the game against non-aggro decks)
2 Negate
2 Extirpate
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Peacekeeper
2 Perish
1 Path to Exile
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Why wouldn't I be serious?
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Metalwalker, I think you're approaching the problem of beating Merfolk in entirely in the wrong way. I like some of what your board is doing but the Peacekeeper plan is not supplemented by Dark Confidant, that I can see. I think you want Misdirection in the sideboard if you're going to play Peacekeepers.
I'm going to be doing a bottom-down reworking of Landstill over the next couple of weeks. This Merfolk problem needs to be figured out for good/real. Stoneforge Mystic may be a step in the right direction, but I'm not sold on it after this weekend.
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Circle of Protection: Blue? Seems really loose, but it provides a reliable way to stop them from attacking and essentially turns all your lands into Maze of Ith. It also answers Progenitus. Follow up with a Wrath or EE to provide card advantage. Ensnaring Bridge to answer Pro/Emrakul decks and Lord-pumping decks. Not sure if these options have already been dismissed, but it seems like dealing with Merfolk is the biggest issue, than dedicating solid answers (that don't die to Dismember) is the key to the strategy.
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
CoP: U is not a good answer. The problem with Merfolks is really: let's assume you do get the best hate cards like Bridge/Peacekeeper/Moat/Humility down, the deck can still win you once they bounce it. The main problem with Merfolks is aside from them kililng you way too fast due to a perfect curve (Adept is really scary and is the key reason the deck can just keep imploding), is you need to have a win-strategy against Merfolks. If your goal is just to sit behind CoP/Humility/Moat/Peacekeeper, the deck will run you over. These days, we're lucky to have Jace sitting behind such locks to win games, but a Merfolk player is going to ensure you won't be able to play a combination of both Jace + lock easily, and if you don't happen to have a backup plan outside of the Jace + lock strategy, you are likely to lose to them just naturally stomping you over in the combat phase.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master Shake
Metalwalker, I think you're approaching the problem of beating Merfolk in entirely in the wrong way. I like some of what your board is doing but the Peacekeeper plan is not supplemented by Dark Confidant, that I can see. I think you want Misdirection in the sideboard if you're going to play Peacekeepers.
I'm going to be doing a bottom-down reworking of Landstill over the next couple of weeks. This Merfolk problem needs to be figured out for good/real. Stoneforge Mystic may be a step in the right direction, but I'm not sold on it after this weekend.
I did terrible last week with the list I posted, for most parts just the syndrome of drawing wrong cards at the wrong time (like MM turn 2, snare turn 3, FoW after they land a bomb lol).
I didn't get to play with Bobs, and probably don't intend to do so in the future. He's only really good at the cheesy moments when opponents play no removal, and for most parts that's not doing enough.
From my experience, there's only two ways to actually combat Merfolks that I've had success in the past:
1) Run 3 Peacekeeper and really let Merfolks Fow/daze everything you got that you pretend to be desperately throwing it out at them and then resolve your Peacekeeper and protect it. This strategy may not be as strong as it used to be since Merfolks are packing Dismember maindeck (which is a strong card to begin with in folks).
2) Play enough 1-1 removal early game and land something like Moat/Humility. WoG/Disk/Planeswalkers do not win this battle. You need to get Moat/Humility down before you can do anything and then protect it while getting any win condition (at this point most win-conditions work).
I played 2) in an unconventional way (using 2 Isochron Scepters with 3 additional 1-1 removal on top of 4 StP) but it has worked for me 60% of the time. My matchups against Merfolks at that time in game 1 was a strong 55-45 and 60-40 sometimes. When you resolve a Scepter, they cannot win through Scepter unless they draw multiple Mutavault fast with a Vial in play.
I would be interested to seeing how you approach UWx Landstill bottom up against Merfolks. I know that Ubg Landstill fairs pretty well because they usually play around 6 maindeck 1-1 removal and then land a Deed. I think most UWx lists these days only play 4 StP and a couple of EE, maybe it's time to up the 1-1 removal up to 6-7 and drop some costlier cards to support an early game.
Do we really nneed to play SFM+Batterskull?? :( I can see the attraction because outside of Merfolks and certain aggro decks, Landstill-ish decks are pretty well positioned to take on a variety of matchups without having heavily disfavored matchups.
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Here is one neat solution to the Merfolk problem:
Vedalken Shackles combined with either High Market or Miren, the Moaning Well. Grab a merfolk with the shackles, then sacrifice!
Yes, a list did play this little combo in a Landstill deck:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...5&iddeck=45181
