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Added Karakas to the optional sideboard cards.
I'd only consider them if I also play white for Chant effects, but some play them.
Pehaps good to mention the rough numbers for types of cards:
- Lands: 14-16
- Protection: 6-7
- Cantrips: 12-16
- Business: 7-10
- Accelleration: 16-18
More cantrips usually means less of the rest (except for lands, because cantrips need lands).
To whom mnay interest:
I think this is the most optimal list:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10493
As said, Timo is ritgh about strategies on how to side, Base and Side,
You all just need to agree with his conclusions.
The other list, Grim Tutor and No B.Wish is the other ANT build which is also another good approach.
I just wanted to say I tested that Timo List and as Timo said, is simply broken.
Options:
0/1 Moxen instead 14/15 Lands.
No other changes should be made to the List.
A point, Therapy is in conjuntion with LED and I.T. is one of the bests cards in the deck.
Burning wish sucks. No idea why people try to shove that card into a deck with zero chrome mox, since as a business spell it is incredibly clunky and it's even worse when you don't have rite of flame but instead have just dark ritual and cabal ritual as acceleration. Using petal to wish a turn early is not remotely good barring corner cases, as you don't want to -1 card in hand to fire wish off a turn earlier to make it less clunky. If you want to play wish so badly, play TES. That and doomsday are the only storm decks in legacy that should be running the card along with SITES (red spanish inquisition.) I've played with Timo's storm list that he won Ghent with with a slightly different protection suite namely no IoK's but instead more duress and shelved it due to how bad wish is in the deck. Running more cantrips over wish makes us more resilient to wasteland, I still find the pieces I need on time, and I don't have to weaken the manabase to include wish. As for 'needing to agree' with his conclusions, I don't have to one bit. Wish is donkey-ass in ANT. Adam Prosak just top 8'ed the invitational with 16 cantrip ANT today and had a very good run with ANT, going 7-1 or 8-0 with it in the legacy portion despite everyone expecting to face combo at the invitational today due to TES and ANT winning opens back to back in the past 2 weeks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
@ Burning Wish
Dark ritual you are right i tested BW a lot and have to say it isn't good
bader AD Nauseam and les cantrips...
The only positive thing is BW allowed you more missplay.into empty the warrens or maybe cabal therapy.
16 cantrips is the right thing.;)
Play today again with my ANT list in a legacy turnier.
Where is this sideboard guide from Timo? I looked back and couldn't find it. In advance, thanks.
Its here on eternal central.Quote:
Originally Posted by nodahero
http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=3216
Today i was bad in a turnier with 5 rounds with UBr(PiF) .The last two turnier i was first and second with this list but today
was only shitty..1-4 after 5 rounds but well was not my day shit happens.
The next turnier i play is the GP strassbourg.
I wll probably play ANT. ;)
So from what I read on your Burning Wish isn't good... but yet Timo runs three in his list. Is the consensus that Wish isn't good enough?
There are two camps. ANT with Burning Wish (sometimes known as TNT) and ANT with sixteen cantrips (or Grim Tutor). I would not say there is a consensus about Burning Wish.
I would say it depends if you consider Burning Wish -> EtW strong in your meta or if you fear Surgical Extraction (Infernal, Tendrils) and/or Massive GY Removal (Leyline, DRS, RIP) out of Sideboards.
I don't think Wishes pair well with the nature of this particular storm playtype and Cabal Rituals
Would you enlight is about the issues, werter Eidgenosse? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdingo
Edit: P.S.: it's tournament ;)
Burning Wish does not suck in Combo with LED and D.Rituals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Ritual
Not Playing Chrome Moxen does not mean you can not play B.Wish.
Not Playing RoF does not mean you can not play B.Wish. Even I can say that Cabal Ritual is much stronger than RoF, and if you extrapolate D.Returns in TES to Time Spiral in here, T.Spiral as Business Spell is great with 4 LAnds in play.
The problem with Straigth UB ANT builds that you do not have the Parity Wish gives: It is a +3 from Side for second and third games, It is a +1 In Dusruption, It is a +1 as 'Clunky' business, etc.
I would play the 15 Lands UB Build with 1 Preordain 2 Grim Tutor, 7 Disruption List, But I would find matches that I will loose because of a Detahrite removing my Tendrils, or Teeg lands or Thalia, etc. the percentage of loosing first and 2nd games is much greater with Straigth UB Lists.
The list with B.W. runs 8 Fetches 3 basics. No fear to Wasteland.
@ Lemnear
Haha sry for my bad english, i mean tournament;)
yes i win the first match against
Death and Taxes
2-0 but he makes a lot mistakes^^
Lose against a BWu Delver hymn fish ? lol but that was the only big mistake in the turnier i shuffle my library and because the new sleeves the library(2cards)fall down on the hand(Lolol)and i put 3 cards and release it to late.(was the DR i needed to off, epic fail, that shit should not happen..)
g2 i dont find anything for discard hate..(confis)
Match 3 against the RUG delver(was a really good game) ok i mean i lose against to good topdecks.
play around dazes and pierce and he play them and i want that he play those to make the storm count higher and tendrils in hand win;)
g2 i discard him a FoW i think then have still a therapy, tutor, 2 CBRit and BS+ fetch and i know he have a pyroblast in hand and a snare. i play it next turn and i think i say because the mana was not enough for a tutor into AD and say blast that i can play the BS.then i discard it and topdeck a snare NR.2? ok cool can still discard them.
then he have not really a clock and i have all+Carpet of flowers and can go off he had only a card that i not know( No snare in hand i discard him the snares) but no he topdecks FoW again with no played cantrip from him in this game..
g3 Mulligan to 6 but he have to much..but a good game;)
Match 4 against a friend with elves.
g1 have a good hand with disard and cantrips but dont draw anything and i mean anything and was to slow..
g2 take mulligan to 6 and have a keepable hand with cantrips and discard again. But he play a Teeg and i dont find any shitty hate..with cantrips.
match 5 against Uwr Miracle
i think after the board its 60/40 for us. But i was a little bit pissed^^ and was now not really by the match..
G1 i win easy
G2 discard a CB but he have to much counter
G3 The same/ have to say play bad to..
shit happens..
But i can say the Deck peform very well i mean (The 3 last legacy Turnier in Switzerland i becam (First, Second/Semi Finals and yes and today only bad..^^)
So ich hoffe das waren genug Infos für dich Lemnear;)
@Burning Wish
Why i should play BW without a Chrome mox? Then your AD is bader then with Mox.
lemnear means Cabal ritual have not a lot synergie with BW because you have only bbbbb and not rr(like with rite of flame), and you have a lot the situation that you can only make tendrils for x but no kill and not ETW because you haven't the needed r in the mana pool.
Ok with BW you can search pyroclasm for hatebears in g1 but i think when you use only discard and can't discard him a hatebear in g1 and cant win you make something wrong.Sometimes you lose against hatebears in g1 but then you win g2 and 3;)
i mean today i win and my oppenent have still a thalia in play;)
More than enough info, thanks my friend.
@Wish: the double red mana from Rite of Flame make a difference for the EtW, Shattering Spree or Grapeshot (Teeg, Thalia, Cannonist) out of the Sideboard. Cabal Ritual isn't much of a help unless you Need the mana for the taxing effect of the named hatebears. Wish can work for ANT on a pure defensive use to grab Silver bullets or fight Extraction effects but still needs 2 initial red mana sources to unlock it's full potential (either PIF->BW->Tendrils or BW->EtW/Spree/Grapeshot/etc.) which can be a pain in the ass postboard then you may need tropicals for Decays
...To play wish as a setup spell it requires you to get a nonbasic, or are you advocating playing a mountain? Because I'd rather die than play a mountain in storm combo right now. If you don't use wish as a setup spell, it typically requires 11 mana to combo via wish -> grim tutor -> past in flames in order to get a guaranteed kill. Or it requires 8 mana to go wish into time spiral. The card is clunky as fuck in ANT, no chrome mox makes the card a lot worse. And if you want to play 3 chrome mox, play TES, not ANT. Sure the manabase is worse, but that's the tradeoff of wish. That and drawing chrome mox in any storm opener usually makes me cringe. Drawing 2 is the nutlow as without a brainstorm those 2 cards will slow you down considerably as 2 cards to make 1 mana is actually very fair it turns out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
Also, why should I listen to you ever? You're the guy that basically spammed the TES list for months suggesting bullshit cards like grim tutor, no gitaxian probe, and other really stupid cards to try to 'improve' the deck. My respect for you as a storm player is the lowest it could actually go right now when you keep saying all this nonsense like wish being good in ANT and grim tutor being good in TES while gitaxian probe is supposedly 'bad' in TES when gitaxian probe is probably the best card storm has gotten from new sets in years, and yes I think it's better than PiF in storm combo. There's almost no reason to not run 4 of the card in any storm list outside spanish inquisition. The card is ridiculously powerful in storm combo.
do people have arguments for splits on disruption?
I currently play 4 therapy 3 duress but would like to hear counter arguments for the opposite.
also have you guys found carpet that good? i kind of hate it unless i expect a ton of RUG and even then it is meh, since they can operate off of two lands very easily.
edit: I currently treat pelikuando as a troll and ignore him. i find nothing he says constructive or worth my time, consistently begging for information and then denying it and suggesting garbage ideas which have been worked out prior.
I didn't want to say that but I'm the person who won that tournament making a 9-1 and only loosing to the boy I won in the finals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Ritual
I beat all form of Blue decks in that tournament.
I tested Grim in TES and it is bad, I just reach my own conclusions.
In my zone I'm considered the best OR unique storm player.
There is no much Top 8 listed as the small torunaments I play are not listed in mtg.
I do not intend to gain your respect or any respect, as I said at first, 'To whom may interest'.
Yes, I will take TES again and will play the Gitaxian List, that was a particular goal for me, it is more like: Gitaxian is for boys which don't understand the soul of statistics concept, but I agree that Gitaxian makes the opponent a Non Poker Player for you. So I Agree Gitaxian makes better the Storm Decks.
I also Top eitghted some tournaments with DDFT and TES. I can say for me it is more difficult to play TES than DDFT OR ANT.
Peace please, I'm in your side Storm neighbour. Even Maybe you're a programmer also...
Related to this:
edit: I currently treat pelikuando as a troll and ignore him. i find nothing he says constructive or worth my time, consistently begging for information and then denying it and suggesting garbage ideas which have been worked out prior.
I recognize my personality is a little irritating, but please stop saying things like this, I proposed the Revoke Existence/Hullbreach Slot in TES...
I consider you simply a normal person with normal thoughts, I mean, nothing to have in mind.
Again, we are in the same board...
Related to Disruption package question:
I always play 4 therapy as a Must, it is too good to not to play 4, I prefer 3 duress vs 2 duress 1 Inquistion, 2 in side have been enough for me, and Duress has much more range of action than inquistion.
I max out Cabal Therapy because I always name the right card. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomasDowd
i used to play only tnt, now im goldfishing with prozak's list -1 preordain +1 grim tutor. I like the list (idk if grim tutor is good, but it's another tutor), but i feel a little strange without the solutions that bw gives MD (things like pyroclasm or etw for example), what are your thoughts? i like the grim MD over preordain
@ Grim Tutor
I don't Like it. Bader ad nauseam(Means 2 dmg more than a cantrip and 3 life loss when you played it) and PiF to.
In a Start Hand its a clunky card..
I mean its only a card but this cantrip make the deck more consistant.
Very rarely you don't find a tutor with 16 cantrips but then you can still find AD or PiF maybe Tendrils.
@Thomas Dowd
I have not been very impressed with Carpet of Flowers. It is too easy to play around for the decks where it is best. Usually daze decks. The last time I played it it resolved twice during the tournament and activated for one mana one time.
What do you think about ignorant bliss vs. dark confidant. Does anyone ever side in ignorant bliss against non-hymn discard decks?