All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

People don't really explore good answers to AD (and all other targeted removal); like Spellskite or Apostle's Blessing

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I've explored these extensively in my Energy Field/RIP deck, as well as stuff like Faith's Shield and Greater Auramancy. None of them are good enough, it's not even close. Bear in mind that I was running these alongside Enlightened Tutor, Brainstorm, and Top, so it's not like I was short on ways of finding them.

Well I guess the age of non-land permanents with CMC 3 or less has come to an end. Let's all have a moment of silence.

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Originally Posted by Norm

1) Not many
and
2) Who gives a fuck?


SO...with a GP coming up, how about an unbanned Earthcraft for funsies? :)

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It's pointless with Abrupt Decay running around. You need to be playing perm-less Storm.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

The reason straight aggro doesn't exist isn't because it is bad per say; it is because of the efficiency in Legacy. I don't need to play a Wild Nacatl deck full of creatures, lose to combo, and have uncontrollable topdecks when I can play a Delver based deck, kill almost as quickly, have good combo MUs, and a ton of library manipulation. If I want to be even faster than a Delver deck, pure aggro still isn't my answer. At that point, I should be playing combo. Red as a color is pretty underpowered, so it's fine to want some power creep, but if you are asking for an aggro deck to be just as fast as a combo deck then that is entirely unreasonable.

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That's not what I said, nor what I intended.

To look at what would be a potentially very strong aggro card in the right setup, take a look at, say, Ash Zealot. It's aggressively costed for its body and has an ability that pushes through extra damage. Thalia's another great example here - well-costed for a 2/1 with first strike AND it has disruption. If WotC were to print more creatures like that, we could start seeing actual aggro decks again.

Imagine, for instance, something like this...

Fanatical Guardian RW

First Strike, Haste

Whenever a permanent you control becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, Fanatical Guardian deals three damage to that opponent.

2/1

THAT would be a great aggro card, would be playable in a lot of different aggressive strategies, and would only be really useful in a deck looking to push through the opponents life total ASAP as its main goal.

More on-topic, Abrupt Decay is also not something that needs to be banned. It's a broad, two-mana removal that encourages people to play less Blue. I see zero problems with any of this.

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Originally Posted by HPB_Eggo

That's not what I said, nor what I intended.

To look at what would be a potentially very strong aggro card in the right setup, take a look at, say, Ash Zealot. It's aggressively costed for its body and has an ability that pushes through extra damage. Thalia's another great example here - well-costed for a 2/1 with first strike AND it has disruption. If WotC were to print more creatures like that, we could start seeing actual aggro decks again.

Imagine, for instance, something like this...

Fanatical Guardian RW

First Strike, Haste

Whenever a permanent you control becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, Fanatical Guardian deals three damage to that opponent.

2/1

THAT would be a great aggro card, would be playable in a lot of different aggressive strategies, and would only be really useful in a deck looking to push through the opponents life total ASAP as its main goal.

More on-topic, Abrupt Decay is also not something that needs to be banned. It's a broad, two-mana removal that encourages people to play less Blue. I see zero problems with any of this.

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This card may also help Plateau become a real card!

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

This card may also help Plateau become a real card!

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I'd love to play with plateau again.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

This card may also help Plateau become a real card!

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Improbable. There has to be at least one undesireable dual land to give out at Legacy prize tournaments :)

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Originally Posted by Koby

Improbable. There has to be at least one undesireable dual land to give out at Legacy prize tournaments :)

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I lol'ed

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Originally Posted by Koby

Improbable. There has to be at least one undesireable dual land to give out at Legacy prize tournaments :)

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Ill take a plateau ;)

I wish our LGS would do a dual for duals...

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Ill take a plateau ;)

I wish our LGS would do a dual for duals...

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Just top four once and get the (barely) inked Plateau that was in the case for forever for below thirty dollars :tongue:

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Originally Posted by L0cke

Just top four once and get the (barely) inked Plateau that was in the case for forever for below thirty dollars :tongue:

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Fair... Its difficult to top 4 when you are as terrible a player as me though.... Maybe they should just ban Plateau because it sucks?

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Fair... Its difficult to top 4 when you are as terrible a player as me though.... Maybe they should just ban Plateau because it sucks?

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They cant do that! Then Wild Nacatl is harder to pump. Maybe just alter the oracle text to read "Each wild Nacatl gets +2/+2"

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

Well I guess the age of non-land permanents with CMC 3 or less has come to an end. Let's all have a moment of silence.

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I think maybe the point that's being made is that it's very challenging to rely on synergy between 2 or more cmc <=3 permanents in a format full of Abrupt Decay. This seems supported by what individuals are saying - Aether Vial / ETB dudes, RiP/Energy Field, Counterbalance/Top - with an uncounterable answer to one of the pieces, the other pieces are underpowered compared to the BGx decks just playing "good stuff.dec."

It's still a one for one. If it's that concerning many answers exists. In blue you have a myriad of redirect effects. In white there are protection effects. People just like pointing at cards and crying. Hence why we have this thread.

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Originally Posted by from Cairo

I think maybe the point that's being made is that it's very challenging to rely on synergy between 2 or more cmc <=3 permanents in a format full of Abrupt Decay. This seems supported by what individuals are saying - Aether Vial / ETB dudes, RiP/Energy Field, Counterbalance/Top - with an uncounterable answer to one of the pieces, the other pieces are underpowered compared to the BGx decks just playing "good stuff.dec."

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If you are completely reliant on synergies between permanents and fold to one of your pieces being missing, your deck would probably not fare well even without Abrupt Decay in the field. You run into the same problems if one of your pieces gets countered, or one of your guys gets bolted. At least from what I have seen the "cannot be countered" clause of Decay is relevant maybe a third of the time if that, especially against Vial decks like Death and Taxes. I think the difference now is that people aren't used to artifact/enchantment/catch-all removal being packaged all into the same card so efficiently, so strategies relying on historically harder to deal with permanent types now have to face decks which can target their previously safe pieces game one.

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Originally Posted by L0cke

If you are completely reliant on synergies between permanents and fold to one of your pieces being missing, your deck would probably not fare well even without Abrupt Decay in the field. You run into the same problems if one of your pieces gets countered, or one of your guys gets bolted. At least from what I have seen the "cannot be countered" clause of Decay is relevant maybe a third of the time if that, especially against Vial decks like Death and Taxes. I think the difference now is that people aren't used to artifact/enchantment/catch-all removal being packaged all into the same card so efficiently, so strategies relying on historically harder to deal with permanent types now have to face decks which can target their previously safe pieces game one.

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I don't disagree with you. I also don't see running Faith's Shield as making Death and Taxes any more playable. I'm fine with it being a poor meta choice in a meta saturated with BGx and have shelved it for the time being.

I personally do not see the harm in Decay. After the printing of Gof, Lily and Knight something had to give. The fact it can hit other cards too is icing. I mean if you totally hate Decay there is always Stompy.

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

It's still a one for one. If it's that concerning many answers exists. In blue you have a myriad of redirect effects. In white there are protection effects. People just like pointing at cards and crying. Hence why we have this thread.

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So was Mental Misstep ;)

That said, I don't feel like Abrupt Decay is bad for the format.

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Originally Posted by from Cairo

I think maybe the point that's being made is that it's very challenging to rely on synergy between 2 or more cmc <=3 permanents in a format full of Abrupt Decay. This seems supported by what individuals are saying - Aether Vial / ETB dudes, RiP/Energy Field, Counterbalance/Top - with an uncounterable answer to one of the pieces, the other pieces are underpowered compared to the BGx decks just playing "good stuff.dec."

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Well, i play Death and taxes, and to be honest, I don't fear abrupt decay.
Everything in my deck is 3cmc or lower, so it's just like another permanent.

Mother of runes is also a good counter of Abrupt decay (when played turn one obviously).

I eat BUG decks alive everyday :)

ANd you should know it, because you play D&T yourself :)
It is the uncounterable part of AD that makes it so good. But we (D&T players) don't care about it :)

I don't think it is a poor choice in the meta!!

Show and tell and abrupt decay are very good but okay. Deathrite shaman has a way bigger but yet subtle impact on the format. They won't ever ban this card but it is really too overpowered for what it is.