[Deck] The Rock

Played this tonight to a first place finish:

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
3 Bayou
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor

3 Knight
3 Goyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze

3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares

3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Lingering Souls
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Sylvan Library

--BOARD--

2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Golgari charm
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
2 Tidehollow Sculler

Round 1: Gavin with Jund

Game one I keep a loose hand with Goyf, Library, Thoughtseize, and 4 lands. I know he's on Jund, so I figure if I can have stable mana development, I'll be okay. This game goes back and forth, but he pulls away when he kills my Library and I draw into nothing.

-3 Thoughtseize
- Cabal Therapy
+1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
+1 Ulvenwald Tracker
+1 Jitte
+2 Deed
+1 Sculler

I lead with a good hand and Sculler away his Hymn to Tourach, then drop Library, Goyf, Knight. He dies VERY quickly because he can't aim his removal at Sculler, and by the time he does, the card didn't matter anymore. Sigarda landing means he scoops.

Game 3 is a long grindy game with Jund. I keep a one-lander, Fetching for Forest into DRS. He Hymns me, taking DRS and Goyf. I draw a land and drop Tracker and Library. He kills Library. We go back and forth and I Wasteland him twice. I start to pump out Lingering Souls, but he drops double Obstinate Baloth. Knight joins the party and Tracker rapes his team. But, I make a play mistake and use DRS for mana and kill my own Knight accidentally. Oops. I win against his second Baloth with many Souls tokens swarming and chumping.

1-0

Round 2: Aaron with Dredge

This game is pretty good. I start with DRS and go into Scavenging Ooze and proceed to eat all his Dredgers. He dies/scoops.

-4 Abrupt Decay
-1 Dark confidant
-3 random shaves
+2 Deed
+2 Gaddock Teeg
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Tidehollow Sculler

This game is a back and forth because I'm screwed on mana. I have to Surgical his Ichorid when he double Cabal Therapies me, but I drop Sculler and take his Breakthrough. He Firestorms away my Ooze and a Deathrite Shaman (boo!) but then I come back with Gaddock Teeg to lock him out of Dread Return. He tries to beat with Zombies, but I throw things under the bus to take his Bridges. Eventually, 5/6 Goyfs start to pound his face while Teeg keeps Dread Return down. He scoops.

2-0

Round 3: Max with NO Elves

We draw this round since I wanted to go home early, but it's usually back and forth. I board well for this since I knew he was going to be there this week. Charm, Persecution, Deed, Jitte, Swords, Decay, Teeg, and Sculler become VERY good at this. As long as he doesn't Craterhoof me too early, I'm usually okay. Charm/Persecution helps until I can sweep with Deed.


All in all, Sculler wasn't a bad card, but the problem is that he sticks around with nothing to do if they have creatures abound. However, he's a MAJOR annoyance and still a clock. He's also a dude to sac to Liliana if need be.

The SFM+Soul lists seem awfully low on discard and (for me also) on removal. How well has the performed for you, Mukkor? I had a similair list, but dropped the Souls on favour of removal/ discard.

@ Matt: nice result and good additional insight information on Sculler :)

hey i'm trying a new take on the rock, or at least rock colors. i've piloted with much success at local legacies taking first multiple times and even sweeping 2-0 the entire day.

4 deathrite shaman
4 thoughtseize
4 swords to plowshares

4 dark confidant
4 stoneforge mystic
4 abrupt decay
3 bitterblossom

3 lingering souls
3 lilliana of the veil
1 maelstrom pulse

1 umezawa's jitte
1 sword of fire and ice

2 chrome mox
1 mox diamond

4 wasteland
3 scrubland
2 bayou
2 savannah
4 marsh flats
4 verdant catacombs
2 windswept heath

very explosive with moxes. tons of removal. sideboard varies. i usually run some number of thalia and hymn to tourach for combo. +4 graveyard hate cards and whatever else tuned to the metagame.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mukkor

Looking for help with the sideboard of my SFM + Souls list (plus the rest of the list, but I think it's otherwise pretty down pat at this point). The sideboard is a remnant of when it was B/W and I'm sure Green gives some fancy answers that I don't have.

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Lingering Souls

4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

3 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard:

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Warmth
1 Serenity
1 Humility
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Umezawa's Jitte


My meta is mostly Wasteland-y decks like Jund and RUG Delver, with relatively high proportions of Show and Tell, Burn, and Miracles. Other combo decks are around, but Show and Tell decks are everywhere.

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In a grindy meta, sfm + souls is the way to go in my opinion as that trumps a lot of the fair strategies. However, it's pretty bad in a combo meta, especially Show and Tell decks, as you want KotR + Karakas + GSZ + combo hate bears. My meta is grindy as fuck, so sfm + souls is the shit. It may not be in your meta.

Hello Sorcerers,
I am working on a Junk list for a few weeks now.
This is what has come up so far.
Another suggestion for a grindy meta...
What do you guys think about it?

4 Ling. Souls
4 Confidant
4 Goyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Mother of Runes
3 GSZ

3 Sylvan Library
4 Abr. Decay
4 Swords to Plow
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize

21 lands (4 Waste, 1 Forrest, 1 Swamp, 5 Duals, 1 Karakas, 9 Fetch)


Sideboard:

3 O-Ring (against Show and Tell)
3 Ethersworn Canonist (Storm, Elves)
1 Gaddock Teeg (Combo)
2 Thoughtseize (Combo)
3 Surgical Extraction (GY + Combo)
1 Jitte (Aggro)
2 flex slots (Zealous Persecution...?)


Opinions?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bob2008

Hello Sorcerers,
I am working on a Junk list for a few weeks now.
This is what has come up so far.
Another suggestion for a grindy meta...
What do you guys think about it?

4 Ling. Souls
4 Confidant
4 Goyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Mother of Runes
3 GSZ

3 Sylvan Library
4 Abr. Decay
4 Swords to Plow
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize

21 lands (4 Waste, 1 Forrest, 1 Swamp, 5 Duals, 1 Karakas, 9 Fetch)


Sideboard:

3 O-Ring (against Show and Tell)
3 Ethersworn Canonist (Storm, Elves)
1 Gaddock Teeg (Combo)
2 Thoughtseize (Combo)
3 Surgical Extraction (GY + Combo)
1 Jitte (Aggro)
2 flex slots (Zealous Persecution...?)


Opinions?

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You could exchange mother of runes and zenith for 3 stoneforge mystics and 2 or 3 pieces of equipment. Reasoning: lingering souls is already good against removal infested/grindy decks, and there are no "key creatures" (aside of bob) to be protected by mother (and you'll also have easier starting hands when all your openers only ask for one color). Stoneforge strategy is usually poor vs combo, but goyf and discard is not :D
So instead of relying in creatures to do the combo-hating (tegg, canonist) you could add more discard spells that will also help against control decks.

One question: isn't karakas kinda lost in that without Knight of the Reliquary?

Is Zealous Persecution and no Darkblast in the sideboard a meta choice? I see lists not running Darkblast in the board and I'm curious as to why.

EDIT: BTW, I think 4 maindeck 1cc discard spells is too few, even though that's what I'm currently running. I think I'm going to shave a Library down to 1 and add an IoK, it'll be 4 Dark Confidant + 1 Sylvan Library and 4 Thoughtseize + 1 IoK.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

Is Zealous Persecution and no Darkblast in the sideboard a meta choice? I see lists not running Darkblast in the board and I'm curious as to why.

EDIT: BTW, I think 4 maindeck 1cc discard spells is too few, even though that's what I'm currently running. I think I'm going to shave a Library down to 1 and add an IoK, it'll be 4 Dark Confidant + 1 Sylvan Library and 4 Thoughtseize + 1 IoK.

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yeah I think it's a meta call on that one. Against many decks - and on a tokens mirror - zealous is an one-sided wrath of got, instant and for 2 mana :D when maverick was rampant it won all the games where it was cast (when + ran BW, i used 3 main deck, but these are different times).

About the discard suite, since you run souls, give cabal therapy a try. It's better that most people think, just need a little pratice. It will play well with your seizes.

Yeah, I've debating running Therapy as I do run Souls and it gives me an outlet to kill my own Bob if necessary. I think I'll test that out. Not really crazy about running a singleton Library to make room, but I don't want to cut anything else. I always viewed Library as Bob #5 and #6, so I think it should be okay to just run "5" Bobs, especially if I'll have added discard to protect him.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chatto

The SFM+Soul lists seem awfully low on discard and (for me also) on removal. How well has the performed for you, Mukkor? I had a similair list, but dropped the Souls on favour of removal/ discard.

@ Matt: nice result and good additional insight information on Sculler :)

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It's been doing fine. The major changes from B/W Stoneblade were the addition of Tarmogoyf, and just having him in the deck helps me close out long games so much better. I had 4 Seize and 3 Therapy in my list but I had to make some tough cuts to get Tarmogoyf in. 4 has been enough so far, the 5th is probably still good and a 6th warrants testing, but I can't find the slots.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

In a grindy meta, sfm + souls is the way to go in my opinion as that trumps a lot of the fair strategies. However, it's pretty bad in a combo meta, especially Show and Tell decks, as you want KotR + Karakas + GSZ + combo hate bears. My meta is grindy as fuck, so sfm + souls is the shit. It may not be in your meta.

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I feel like my meta is for the most part grindy, but that I should have a very good plan for Show and Tell in the sideboard. That's what Humility and O-Ring are for. If KOTR plan gives me free wins against show and tell and keeps my grindy matchups similar I would consider switching but I don't feel like it would. Additionally, I would have to reduce my basic count, and being able to cast all of my spells off of basics has won me many games.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

Is Zealous Persecution and no Darkblast in the sideboard a meta choice? I see lists not running Darkblast in the board and I'm curious as to why.

EDIT: BTW, I think 4 maindeck 1cc discard spells is too few, even though that's what I'm currently running. I think I'm going to shave a Library down to 1 and add an IoK, it'll be 4 Dark Confidant + 1 Sylvan Library and 4 Thoughtseize + 1 IoK.

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Zealous has been pretty good, but not uncuttable. Now that I have Tarmogoyf to push through damage I probably don't need them.

Darkblast sounds great. What matchups do you bring it in against? What creatures do you intend to kill with it when you cast it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sughayyer

yeah I think it's a meta call on that one. Against many decks - and on a tokens mirror - zealous is an one-sided wrath of got, instant and for 2 mana :D when maverick was rampant it won all the games where it was cast (when + ran BW, i used 3 main deck, but these are different times).

About the discard suite, since you run souls, give cabal therapy a try. It's better that most people think, just need a little pratice. It will play well with your seizes.

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Agreed on all points. Zealous crushes old Maverick and the Souls mirror, but those days are gone. What should I run in their stead?

Darkblast comes in versus almost any deck that isn't grossly unfair. Esperblade, mirror, all tribal decks, Delver decks, etc. are all decks you'd want to see Darkblast. If you're running Library, Darkblast gives you a way to get rid off chaff off the top. It won't blow the opponent out like Zealous can, but unless they have gy removal, Darkblast effectively blanks your opponent's creatures and makes your goyfs better than theirs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sughayyer

@ safety

I like NO, but I have very few green creatures. As I said before, lately I've been playing with souls+mystic. To go the hydra route, I'd have to add zenith, arbor, etc. Unless I make a transformative sideboard, but then I think I'll dead lose to high tide (and there were 2 last time... It seems all the decks I don't want to play against come in pairs)

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Green fetches, Dryad Arbor. You're welcome.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

Darkblast comes in versus almost any deck that isn't grossly unfair. Esperblade, mirror, all tribal decks, Delver decks, etc. are all decks you'd want to see Darkblast. If you're running Library, Darkblast gives you a way to get rid off chaff off the top. It won't blow the opponent out like Zealous can, but unless they have gy removal, Darkblast effectively blanks your opponent's creatures and makes your goyfs better than theirs.

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This does sound good, I'll try cutting Zealous for it. Thanks.

Zealous does more against Tribal though (Combo Elves in particular), that'd why i'm on the Zealous/Golgari plan.

-Matt

@safety
that's not enough. On that plan I'll make my manabase worse to add a 5-card sideboard plan that doesn't worn on my meta.
What I meant instead is, NO-Pro is a good plan, but the deck's shell must be able to comfortably support it and also be able to function perfectly without it. And the gsz shell is better at that than the sfm-souls.
####
@all should there be distinctive threads for the gsz based rock, the souls-sfm based rock and the tempo rock (aka dark horizons)? It seems the only common things binding these decks are the colors and a few card choices.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sughayyer

@safety
that's not enough. On that plan I'll make my manabase worse to add a 5-card sideboard plan that doesn't worn on my meta.
What I meant instead is, NO-Pro is a good plan, but the deck's shell must be able to comfortably support it and also be able to function perfectly without it. And the gsz shell is better at that than the sfm-souls.
####
@all should there be distinctive threads for the gsz based rock, the souls-sfm based rock and the tempo rock (aka dark horizons)? It seems the only common things binding these decks are the colors and a few card choices.

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There's no distinct thread for RIP U/W or traditional U/w Miracles, so I don't REALLY think we need one. Plus, with 3 separate threads, we'd have so little discussion in each. I think I'd rather keep it under one umbrella. Even though we all run different versions, it's not like we cannot help each other out with our builds.

-Matt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sughayyer

@safety
that's not enough. On that plan I'll make my manabase worse to add a 5-card sideboard plan that doesn't worn on my meta.
What I meant instead is, NO-Pro is a good plan, but the deck's shell must be able to comfortably support it and also be able to function perfectly without it. And the gsz shell is better at that than the sfm-souls.
####
@all should there be distinctive threads for the gsz based rock, the souls-sfm based rock and the tempo rock (aka dark horizons)? It seems the only common things binding these decks are the colors and a few card choices.

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Yeah, it's been tried. Almost every variant that's ever tried to branch has been forced back into this thread. Nic Fit escapes... which will always confuse me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by damionblackgear

Yeah, it's been tried. Almost every variant that's ever tried to branch has been forced back into this thread. Nic Fit escapes... which will always confuse me.

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While initial Nic Fit decks might have been Rock with Explorer nowadays the Nic Fit is nothing like Rock and we are closer to Jund than to them. Needless to say - they run a single thread for at least three very distinct variants of the deck (GBW Rector, RGB Scapewish, BUG Deadeye).

So, I was actually really inspired by a list posted in the New and Developmental section discussing the possibility of abusing Armageddon and Life from the Loam in a sort of Rock control shell, and this idea appealed greatly to me.

This is just a rough draft of the concept, I don't think it has to really stray that far away from what people would expect from a Rock list:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Knight of the Reliquary

3x Armageddon
3x Life from the Loam
3x Sylvan Library
2x Liliana of the Veil

3x Swords to Plowshares
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Duress
3x Inquisition of Kozilek

23-24 Lands

-- This leaves me with 1-2 slots open. Internally, I've nicknamed it "Ragnarock" because I'm clever. I'm not really sure what I want them to be. The idea would be to dig for an Armageddon, clear the way for it with the ~8 discard effects, and bomb them with it knowing that I'll recover substantially better than they will with the power of Loam, Deathrite Shamans, and Library--on top of having a better way to abuse Liliana via LFTL.

I'm thinking 2x GSZ with an Arbor in the land count and a teeg/ooze side sounds pretty good. That'll help accelerate me to 4 mana for Armageddon. This also ups the theoretical creature count by a bit, making it easier to find Deathrites who will be very important throughout the game. I wouldn't even care much about eating my own lands, once an armageddon resolves knights are arbitrarily large.

Part of me wants to also find room for Terravores but that may be a little too cute and would cut into important other slots.

Wouldn't it be better to play with Mox Diamond, as it leaves u with one more mana source after geddon?