[Deck] Goblins

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Originally Posted by magicmerl

Arms Dealer is terrible. If you want to have reuseable removal, then look at Wort of KikiJiki. But I don't think that they are necessary.

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Any particular reason you think he is terrible?

We run Siege-Gang as part of our core, the abilities are near identical except AD has a better chance blowing up an early Tarmo resolve then does SGC. And he's lower on the mana curve, so can be dropped earlier as well.

Really I only see two downsides vs. SGC which are:
a) SGC brings fodder with him
b) SGC can send bodies to the players face.

In AD's defense though he:
a) costs 2 less (1R to be exact)
b) Hits for 4, which threatens Tarmo and can force a Batterskull back to opponents hand in response to combat damage step (neat little trick)
EDIT: was just thinking this is relevant against Zoo as well - 4 damage means he can clear out Nacatl's and other toughness 3 or 4's with a 1:1 as opposed to 2:1 like SGC has

Just wondering why you say he's 'Terrible' without any other truly valid argument behind it.

Sorry, I should have said more than just dismissing him. But these sort of discussions feel silly because we are just describing the card.

Arms Dealer is terrible because it's a 1/1 for 3. SiegeGang on the other hand is a 5/5 for 5. There's such a power differential between the two it's not funny.

The slot that I think Arms Dealer would be competing with is in the Sharpshooter/Sparksmith/Tarfire/Gempalm removal spaces. Gempalm has a similar sort of effect and mana cost, although it is actually a source of card advantage, not disadvantage. So I am biased towards Gempalms over the dealer.

So really, it could replace Sparksmith/Sharpshooter I guess. Give it a try and see.

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Originally Posted by Remy

Just wondering why you say he's 'Terrible' without any other truly valid argument behind it.

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I'll give you some valid reasons.

He's very expensive and his ability isn't that great.

He's one of those cards that looks good on paper, but I think in practice you're going to find that he sucks because:

If you have an opening with lackey, why on earth would you cheat him into play over SGC? SGC provides bodies that hit both creatures and players, and chump block. If you run piledriver or gempalm, he makes them both better and can win the game for you on turn 3.

Arms dealer is just too much of an investment and is very narrow in it's usage. SGC, while more expensive, has more applications and has a much more devastating effect when he hits play.

Those arguments are fair enough.

I'm mostly looking at Goblins from the perspective of, we've fallen out of the DTB list. Partially due to less Goblins players but also largely in part, I feel, due to having stagnated over the existence of the archetype. The meta has moved past us, and if we don't adjust to fit it we will fail. I love my little green horde and want them to succeed.:wink:

So I'm trying to exhaust all avenues. So far it seems white splash for Thalia and RiP are one answer. Something just feels odd about it though and it's not my cup of tea. After tonight's round of testing I feel like I need to go with the green splash. At least for my meta. I'm also considering the blue splash (one that has never been really been brought up.) Just to see if it's worthwhile (I doubt it will add much and will probably just hinder the deck further though, but hey, thats what playtesting and proxies are for.) Blue splash would be mostly to see if adding Stifle would warrant the use of Wasteland in my mind again.

So basically I'm attempting to think outside the box a little. A put Goblins back where it deserves to be...on top.

I haven't been on in a while. I haven't really taken my Goblins seriously in about a year. I'm going to a tourney Saturday and I'm bugging out about my list. I'd like your thoughts Goblin players.

Maindeck:
3 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshall
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Goblin Chieftain
2 Stingscourger
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tarfire
3 Warren Weirding

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Badlands
5 Mountains
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Perish
3 Shattering Spree
4 Chalice of the Void

I'm not running ports because it seems like to much colorless mana and last time I played them I lost to Price of Progress twice. I'm not happy about that. If adding caverns means I lose to burn I may cut them as well. We'll see how things go this weekend. Only 3 Vials because I win with 3. I'm well aware of how amazing this card is before anybody says anything. I was playing Goblins when we only had Goblin King, Balloon Brigade, Raiders, Hero, and Goblins of the Flarg... The point is I know what I'm doing. I've been doing stupid shit lately like playing Lightning Crafter Kiki-Jiki combo. I'm trying to kick ass this weekend and I think my list looks solid but I'd like some input.

The list is good and I hope you do well. Perhaps Cabal Therapy instead of Chalice would come to my mind. and 3 Vials is fine in the current decay meta.

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Originally Posted by Remy

Those arguments are fair enough.

I'm mostly looking at Goblins from the perspective of, we've fallen out of the DTB list. Partially due to less Goblins players but also largely in part, I feel, due to having stagnated over the existence of the archetype. The meta has moved past us, and if we don't adjust to fit it we will fail. I love my little green horde and want them to succeed.:wink:

So I'm trying to exhaust all avenues. So far it seems white splash for Thalia and RiP are one answer. Something just feels odd about it though and it's not my cup of tea. After tonight's round of testing I feel like I need to go with the green splash. At least for my meta. I'm also considering the blue splash (one that has never been really been brought up.) Just to see if it's worthwhile (I doubt it will add much and will probably just hinder the deck further though, but hey, thats what playtesting and proxies are for.) Blue splash would be mostly to see if adding Stifle would warrant the use of Wasteland in my mind again.

So basically I'm attempting to think outside the box a little. A put Goblins back where it deserves to be...on top.

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just want to toss in Phantasmal Image, which could be relevant for a blue splash. He can copy our cip effects, warchief/chieftains or piledrivers, is a removal for legendary and therefore good to have against SnT plus if you want to he can copy tarmos to give us more time or even confis if we are that greedy :D
negative side effects: he's blue, makes ringleader (which he can copy) worse because he's not a goblin and he has the sac effect on being targeted.

Stifle+Image may be worth a test i guess.

What do you want Stifle for in Goblins, thats important enaugh to run fewer goblins? Like the Image anyway :)

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Originally Posted by Remy

So I'm trying to exhaust all avenues. So far it seems white splash for Thalia and RiP are one answer.

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If the white splash is the answer we would be DTB right now.. the same is true for all the other commonly played variants (R/g and R).

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Originally Posted by Big Sexy

I haven't been on in a while. I haven't really taken my Goblins seriously in about a year. I'm going to a tourney Saturday and I'm bugging out about my list. I'd like your thoughts Goblin players.

Maindeck:
3 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshall
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Goblin Chieftain
2 Stingscourger
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tarfire
3 Warren Weirding

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Badlands
5 Mountains
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Perish
3 Shattering Spree
4 Chalice of the Void

I'm not running ports because it seems like to much colorless mana and last time I played them I lost to Price of Progress twice. I'm not happy about that. If adding caverns means I lose to burn I may cut them as well. We'll see how things go this weekend. Only 3 Vials because I win with 3. I'm well aware of how amazing this card is before anybody says anything. I was playing Goblins when we only had Goblin King, Balloon Brigade, Raiders, Hero, and Goblins of the Flarg... The point is I know what I'm doing. I've been doing stupid shit lately like playing Lightning Crafter Kiki-Jiki combo. I'm trying to kick ass this weekend and I think my list looks solid but I'd like some input.

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Only thing that I would change is -Wort, +Krenko. You've got 6 haste Lords so Krenko can usually activate the turn he etb. And Wort is pretty bad, especially since Wort targets the goblin card you want to return, so your opponent can always use DRS to remove the card you target. And Wort is a sitting duck to spot removal. So I think you'll get much more value out of Krenko than Wort.

I have a hard time getting rid of Wort. She's usually been solid for me. I like the card advantage she gets you(if she lives) and sometimes when I can't quite finish off an opponent I tutor for her because of the fear ability. I've tried Krenko and thought it was a classic win more card. I think if I have no dudes in play I'd rather topdeck Wort. I'll most likely test Krenko again but at this point I think if I cut Wort it'll be for another removal spell/creature. Thanks for the advice.

I played roughly ~10 games preboard with MonoR Gobbos vs Elves and was surprised to see it was an even to slightly favourable match-up. I do run Gob Sharpshooter, Tarfire (x2) AND Sparky (x2), though so maybe that was why I thought it wasn't that bad.

For MonoR, what kind of sb should I try?

Something like this?
4 PKinesis
3-4 GY hate (I really like Relics as GY hate)
3-4 Combo hate (Chalice/Thorn)
2 REB/PBlast
1-3 Meta-slots

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Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy

I played roughly ~10 games preboard with MonoR Gobbos vs Elves and was surprised to see it was an even to slightly favourable match-up.

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You should test post board.. when they side in Absolute Law.

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Originally Posted by Avatara

You should test post board.. when they side in Absolute Law.

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How do we beat that?

Goblins seems to be not doing so good for me :[

I think the problem is the removal we have isn't really good enough and our turn 1 plays are very lackluster now.

Removal options:

GemPalm - need goblins in play to be effective

StingScourger - he's good for getting lackey through (and a great option for SnT) removal is only temporary. However, I've had many situations where lackey hitting doesn't do enough or they had removal anyway.

Lightning Bolt - good, but not a goblin, not tutorable, and doesn't always kill.

Warren Weirding - Can't target.

Tarfire - doesn't do enough damage.

Punishing Fire - I like the idea of it, but it seems like a gimmick to me on paper. I don't like that to use it, you have to weaken your mana base, nor do I like that it not is a goblin. Also it only does 2 damage, which I don't think is efficient enough.

I'm not sure about the White Splash, STP is good, but its not a goblin and you have to splash white. I guess you can thalia and rest in peace, with it. I'm still a bit skeptical of it though...

Not sure where goblins goes from here. It seems like the meta is just passing us by.

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Originally Posted by FoxBlade

Goblins seems to be not doing so good for me :[

I think the problem is the removal we have isn't really good enough and our turn 1 plays are very lackluster now.

Removal options:

GemPalm - need goblins in play to be effective

StingScourger - he's good for getting lackey through (and a great option for SnT) removal is only temporary. However, I've had many situations where lackey hitting doesn't do enough or they had removal anyway.

Lightning Bolt - good, but not a goblin, not tutorable, and doesn't always kill.

Warren Weirding - Can't target.

Tarfire - doesn't do enough damage.

Punishing Fire - I like the idea of it, but it seems like a gimmick to me on paper. I don't like that to use it, you have to weaken your mana base, nor do I like that it not is a goblin. Also it only does 2 damage, which I don't think is efficient enough.

I'm not sure about the White Splash, STP is good, but its not a goblin and you have to splash white. I guess you can thalia and rest in peace, with it. I'm still a bit skeptical of it though...

Not sure where goblins goes from here. It seems like the meta is just passing us by.

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Your are right about the removal thing: we DO need good and reliable removal spells right now.
I think Punishing fire + Groves are a viable option. Another option, that you havn't probably considered yet is Dismember, which is totally independent from your splashcolor + can be cast out of a Wasteland and Caverns (which is huge, as it might catch your opponent by surprise).
Other that that I think Boros Charm sounds very promnising - not so much as a removal spell per se, but more as a combat trick (like giving doublestrike @ Lackey who attacks into Deathrite Shaman, or making your dudes indistructible after your opponent declared blockers. The Double-stiking Piledriver is just a wet dream I guess.

//Edit: I just realized that it even counters the omnipresent Abrupt Decay
///Edit#2:...and Pyroclasm
////Edit#3: ....and Wasteland

I hadn't actually consider boros charm, but now that you mention it - that looks like a very good card for us. I'm gonna test that out. It's not really removal, but it looks like it could help our goblins survive and counter attack. I do like a double striking Piledriver, lackey, etc.

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Originally Posted by FoxBlade

I hadn't actually consider boros charm, but now that you mention it - that looks like a very good card for us. I'm gonna test that out. It's not really removal, but it looks like it could help our goblins survive and counter attack. I do like a double striking Piledriver, lackey, etc.

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If it wasn't for the fact that 12 of our 22 lands don't help us cast Boros Charm.. and we need two of those lands on turn two to help Lackey. If they counter Boros Charm during combat they can two for one us. The same is true when they remove/destroy Lackey in response to Boros Charm. I wouldn't rely on it for the early game. The mid and/or late game might be another thing, but do keep in mind that we need to keep two colored lands open.

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Originally Posted by Remy

Those arguments are fair enough.

I'm mostly looking at Goblins from the perspective of, we've fallen out of the DTB list. Partially due to less Goblins players but also largely in part, I feel, due to having stagnated over the existence of the archetype. The meta has moved past us, and if we don't adjust to fit it we will fail. I love my little green horde and want them to succeed.:wink:

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To be honest, I think that Goblins was only ever in the DTB list since 2008 because of Thalia. Legacy as a format is too fast for fair creature based decks like ours. The unfair decks like storm and omni-tell are just too fast for things like SGC to be relevant.

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Originally Posted by Remy

So I'm trying to exhaust all avenues. So far it seems white splash for Thalia and RiP are one answer. Something just feels odd about it though and it's not my cup of tea.

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What feels odd about it to me, it that they aren't goblins and they weaken the rest of the deck.

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Originally Posted by Remy

After tonight's round of testing I feel like I need to go with the green splash. At least for my meta.

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Why is choosing between white and green an either/or situation? 8 fetch lands mean that you can fairly easily run a single Taiga to facilitate green. I personally splash both.

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Originally Posted by Remy

I'm also considering the blue splash (one that has never been really been brought up.) Just to see if it's worthwhile (I doubt it will add much and will probably just hinder the deck further though, but hey, thats what playtesting and proxies are for.) Blue splash would be mostly to see if adding Stifle would warrant the use of Wasteland in my mind again.

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The trouble with splashing for spells is that your mana is terrible. Creatures like Thalia and Phantasmal Image can be cast off caverns or Vial'd in. Spells can only be supported by fetch/duals, and quite frankly, we don't have enough of them to reliably cast those spells. Rest in Peace is an exception since it's SUCH a game breaker against those decks.

Edit: This arguement also applies to Boros Charm.

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Originally Posted by Remy

So basically I'm attempting to think outside the box a little. A put Goblins back where it deserves to be...on top.

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Well, to be honest, I think that goblins is always going to be a fringe legacy deck unless there's some sort of recruiter/food chain nonsense, since it's core strategies are not inherently powerful enough when compared to other decks.

Goblins is good when the mana denial we run can effectively disrupt the opponent. Cavern of Souls was a great aid to us by nerfing counterspells, but it also helped combo decks, which are terrible matchups for us. It made us the DTB. Deathrite Shaman mitigates the mana denial in green-based strategies, which basically means that cards like Rishadan Port are terrible now.

I think that your opinion is too pessimistic. It is not real that all legacy decks have better strategies than goblins, and decks faster than us (unfair decks) are simply trading consistency for explosiveness. It is arguable that goblin strategy is not much effective at the moment but it is because of the metagame, not because goblins is a fringe deck. Surely is true that goblins is good only in some metagames.
Regarding the food chain/recruiter nonsense: i think that wizard could unban recruiter nowadays. when it was banned this combo was really too strong for legacy but now i don't think it would be so absurd.... at best it allows a turn three win, and can be disrupted by counterspells or destroying food chain. The only problem may be that recruiter allow us to draw the cards we need for the rest of the game, but i don't know if even it would be too strong in today's legacy, because aniway we need mana to cast spells and if we are playing food chain we should cut aether vial.