[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

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Originally Posted by Contract Killer

I'm somewhat of a lurker, but have been playing the deck on and off at weekly events for a year or so now. As for Top being slow while this is true I think the flexibility the card gives is absurd to not run one main deck. At the very least it gives you a "ponder" effect each fetch and improves your draws constantly. After that though is what sets it apart from literally any other card you could play in a flex spot.

A) Makes natural tendrils in hand much easier to complete by flip top, cantrip, replay top rinse repeat until lethal storm.

B) Increased usage with LED which if you have a stocked graveyard is much better in my opinion. Being able to ritual out and crack an LED for UUU (flipping top to get the PIF) rather than for RRR and flashing back a PIF you binned is great. You net 1 more mana this way, get another PIF turn if this one fails (unlikely) and get access to minimum UUU instead of maybe just maybe UU off of your remaining lands after the first land goes into a dark ritual.

C) Brainstorm in conjuction with top allows you to float redundant business on your combo turn.

D) Most PIF cantrip lines I notice end up having excess black mana which with top can be turned into pseudo cantrips. At the very least seeing a couple cards deeper in-between actual cantrips at the cost of excess black mana we can't use otherwise seems worth it.

It might be easy to dismiss these as cute corner case scenarios. Which they could very well be, but I consider at least the cumulative cantrip effect you get on draws and fetches worthwhile. Honestly I don't see why people look at top as being slow when for the most part other decks can't efficiently race storm to begin with; the few exceptions being faster combo decks (reanimator, tin fins, etc) and burn.

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This post is awkward, acting as if Hymn, DRS, Thalia, Prelate, Counterbalance, etc. do not exist and it does not matter when you (establish a) kill and how much mana you spend on the way

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

This post is awkward, acting as if Hymn, DRS, Thalia, Prelate, Counterbalance, etc. do not exist and it does not matter when you (establish a) kill and how much mana you spend on the way

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I do recognize that those cards are in the meta and that they're difficult to play through (or not able to like thalia and prelate). My point that I was trying to make is that as a one off top gives you a lot of flexibility and options more so than preordain. I just honestly think that one top opens up enough possibilities to not pass up.
With that being said the percentage of games that rely on us having preordain over top to win has got to be lower than the lines that top opens up to win in later turns (3-4). The majority of the cards you listed hymn, drs, thalia, prelate and counterbalance all require discard to deal with. For the sake of discussion let’s assume they’re in their opener since we can’t do anything if they rip them off the top. Most of them come down on turn 2 so it seems counterintuitive that having a preordain would solve that problem. If they're otp and we have preordain or top on our turn 1 neither will allow us to use it and get the threat out of their hand. Those just seem like zero sum games:
They play drs our turn we can either gamble on beating a hymn with a discard spell or cantrip, but not both.
They play island/top or plains/vial we either have a discard spell for the counterbalance/thalia or not.
Now if we’re otp using preordain does let us see more cards effectively if we need to bottom both. The problem is since were otp we don’t know what our opponent is on and that we need a discard spell for next turn. In this case I actually thing top is better in the sense that you can utilize your mana turn 1 and be able to cantrip turn 2 with information as to what they’re on like miracles or something and we need to find discard to beat the potential counterbalance.

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Originally Posted by Contract Killer

I do recognize that those cards are in the meta and that they're difficult to play through (or not able to like thalia and prelate). My point that I was trying to make is that as a one off top gives you a lot of flexibility and options more so than preordain. I just honestly think that one top opens up enough possibilities to not pass up.

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Which is irrelevant if you don't bother to analyze the pros and cons of the card compares to others and in the context of speed and mana investment. One could make arguments about LimDulsVault or Gifts Ungiven to setup the combo and how good and cheap the cards are tutoring at instant speed comlared to the initial 5cc Dark Petition, but thats not telling the whole story of why the two later cards are nowhere to be find in modern ANT.

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Originally Posted by Contract Killer

With that being said the percentage of games that rely on us having preordain over top to win has got to be lower than the lines that top opens up to win in later turns (3-4).

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Here comes the statement which I had problems with in the first place, just pointing at how good SDT is if you have 3 turns of spinning and fetching if your opponent does nothing. Its off to do that preboard against D&T, Eldrazi, Miracles, etc. because they lock you out if you give them the time SDT needs. Cards like Preordain are much faster and casting two cantrips for the same mana you invest for dropping Top and spin it, lets you see MORE CARDS over the same timeframe, which is highly relevant if you are looking for a DoN, Discard spell, whatever to fight back Counterbalance, Thalia, Prelate, etc. before these are actively disrupting you

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Originally Posted by Contract Killer

The majority of the cards you listed hymn, drs, thalia, prelate and counterbalance all require discard to deal with.

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...which you find quicker and more likely with cantrips than with SDT.

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Originally Posted by Contract Killer

For the sake of discussion let’s assume they’re in their opener since we can’t do anything if they rip them off the top.

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You CAN improve the chance to find discard by turn 2, if they have stuff in hand and thats what its about imo. There is no NEED to have discard in your starting grip.

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Originally Posted by Contract Killer

Most of them come down on turn 2 so it seems counterintuitive that having a preordain would solve that problem.

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its not if you are on the play. Thought its obvious

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Originally Posted by Contract Killer

If they're otp and we have preordain or top on our turn 1 neither will allow us to use it and get the threat out of their hand. Those just seem like zero sum games:
They play drs our turn we can either gamble on beating a hymn with a discard spell or cantrip, but not both.

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If your argument is "how to dodge G1/T1 hate or T2 hate on the draw with Preordain?" I don't see how SDT is any better. Against DRS in particular, Preordain is still better to get t.hold through DRS

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Originally Posted by Contract Killer

They play island/top or plains/vial we either have a discard spell for the counterbalance/thalia or not.

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and how is SDT improving the situation?

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Originally Posted by Contract Killer

Now if we’re otp using preordain does let us see more cards effectively if we need to bottom both. The problem is since were otp we don’t know what our opponent is on and that we need a discard spell for next turn. In this case I actually thing top is better in the sense that you can utilize your mana turn 1 and be able to cantrip turn 2 with information as to what they’re on like miracles or something and we need to find discard to beat the potential counterbalance.

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Spinning T2 SDT: see three cards
Casting Preordain T2: see three cards

Is your arguments seriously "what if I am too dumb to realize that I might need discard early and decided to burn MY ONLY CANTRIP turn 1 for a non-discard spell?" You are aware, that casting T1 Preordain into T2 Ponder let you see up to 7 cards to find the discard spell compared to your 3 with SDT?

Reading Lemnear arguing is always pretty fun :D


Also you guys want to win to fast. We are a deck that can grind a los of games. You dont need to alsways rush it and kill t2.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Maybe, with such a high number of cantrips, I would even play a second Island for double cantrip turn 2. Boarding out the Preordains for the sideboard storm spells in games two and three should be a plan still ;)

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This is exactly where i'm at, but every once in a while I miss having Bayou, because it gives you access to both sideboard and combo.

I'm currently evaluating what to do with my 4th Cabal Therapy. Drawing discard while you're digging for tutor feels clunky at times, but my metagame is choke-full of D&Ts and therapies are kinda valuable in the matchup.

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8 Fetchlands
2 Sea
1 Volcanic
1 Tropical
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Preordain
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony

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Random notes:
Dark Petition is especially good in the line with one infernal tutor and two LEDs: LED - LED - tap 2 lands - Infernal Tutor - crack LEDs in response - Ad Nauseam.
In that line, you can struggle finding an infernal tutor and/or a LED (you only have 2 left in the deck)... Petition hits you for 5 if revealed, but Grim Tutor would be even worse (3+3), and with DP you have a sure access to Tendrils, no hellbent needed. I miss having DP at times, however PiF is a great and the second copy does stuff: i'm especially impressed by the number of games where i randomly topdeck PiF and win. :tongue:

My sideboard is very unsophisticated and brutal, but as I said, my metagame is weird. I'm running 4 Dread of Night, 3 Decays and 1 Massacre, filling the rest with what I think could come in handy for the tournament. I've been skipping EtW at times,I never liked not winning on the spot. I've brought ANT to a local tournament 4 times: two failures, then a top8, then a win. Looks like my apprenticeship is over :cool:

p.s. matchup vs eldrazi stompy is horrible.

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Originally Posted by Cave

Random notes:
Dark Petition is especially good in the line with one infernal tutor and two LEDs: LED - LED - tap 2 lands - Infernal Tutor - crack LEDs in response - Ad Nauseam.
In that line, you can struggle finding an infernal tutor and/or a LED (you only have 2 left in the deck)... Petition hits you for 5 if revealed, but Grim Tutor would be even worse (3+3), and with DP you have a sure access to Tendrils, no hellbent needed. I miss having DP at times, however PiF is a great and the second copy does stuff: i'm especially impressed by the number of games where i randomly topdeck PiF and win. :tongue:

My sideboard is very unsophisticated and brutal, but as I said, my metagame is weird. I'm running 4 Dread of Night, 3 Decays and 1 Massacre, filling the rest with what I think could come in handy for the tournament. I've been skipping EtW at times,I never liked not winning on the spot. I've brought ANT to a local tournament 4 times: two failures, then a top8, then a win. Looks like my apprenticeship is over :cool:

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Personally, it just drives me crazy to reduce the ways to quickly fill the yard (aka cutting cantrips) and see myself stranded with a DP either w/o spell mastery or without the 5 initial mana (both happening too often for my taste against DRS with Calebs list which favors DPs in place of Preordains).

The beauty of PIF is that its totally fine to be played for value, disruption and cardadvantage early and to be flashbacked for the kill later. I love casting DR into PIF just to mindtwist opponents and draw a few cards with flashbacked cantrips in grindier games. Also Ritual->PIF->Decay is absolutely fine

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Personally, it just drives me crazy to reduce the ways to quickly fill the yard (aka cutting cantrips) and see myself stranded with a DP either w/o spell mastery or without the 5 initial mana (both happening too often for my taste against DRS with Calebs list which favors DPs in place of Preordains).

The beauty of PIF is that its totally fine to be played for value, disruption and cardadvantage early and to be flashbacked for the kill later. I love casting DR into PIF just to mindtwist opponents and draw a few cards with flashbacked cantrips in grindier games. Also Ritual->PIF->Decay is absolutely fine

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I'm well aware of DP's weaknesses and when I played it, I considered it the weakest card in the deck. Also I never cut cantrips in order to run DP: I cut discard #7 for it and I was still playing at least 2 preordains.
I'm just stating that there are some situations in which DP is pretty powerful, that's it.

Another thing:

It's true that we're not always in a hurry, but against some decks we actually are, especially G1 against tier 1 decks.
-G1 against Miracles we want to catch them with their pants down, it's very likely that they kept a hand with a certain amount of cards that are full-dead against us. We have to exploit this factor and win before they establish countertop lock or have shuffled away their dead cards from their hand and have stacked it with disruption.
-G1 against Taxes we scoop to Thalia so we need either to get a therapy online or to go Oops I win before they can even understand what's going on. With the upcoming edition, we also happen to scoop to Prelate so turn 3 is going to be another crucial checkpoint.
-G1 against Eldrazi Stompy we basically pray to God to win the dice roll and have Therapy on chalice. If they win dice and start with a Mimic, that's also okay-ish, however something nasty is coming next turn, so we still have to hurry.

I played 3 Thing in the Ice in my sideboard today and was really impressed. My relevant match was against 4 color loam. I like its multipurpose use as a sweeper and damage. For me, it freed up sideboard space and when I brought it in, I took out business.

A fun kill was bouncing his Thalia#1 with the TiTi trigger, attacking with Awoken Horror, and then casting a small Tendrils to win. Another game, my initial hand was double LP, TiTi, Thoughtseize, mana, etc. I played land-LP, cast TiTi, LP, Thoughtseize, take CoV. I won that game after he chumped with Bob and Teige for a couple turns.

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Originally Posted by ScottW

I played 3 Thing in the Ice in my sideboard today and was really impressed. My relevant match was against 4 color loam. I like its multipurpose use as a sweeper and damage. For me, it freed up sideboard space and when I brought it in, I took out business.

A fun kill was bouncing his Thalia#1 with the TiTi trigger, attacking with Awoken Horror, and then casting a small Tendrils to win. Another game, my initial hand was double LP, TiTi, Thoughtseize, mana, etc. I played land-LP, cast TiTi, LP, Thoughtseize, take CoV. I won that game after he chumped with Bob and Teige for a couple turns.

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Interesting stuff! Did you 'board in TitI in any other matchups?

I've got an unrelated scenario I'd like to discuss with longtime Storm players. I went 2-1 again at the local yesterday (4-way tie for first place!), beating Post twice and losing 1-2 to D&T. In game 1 against D&T, I drew a yucky hand with, like, Ritual, Swamp, Duress, Therapy, a couple of cantrips, and an LED. I shipped it back, thinking that a hand with no deck-sculpting plays and no business when I'm on the play doesn't feel good, even if in retrospect I'd have had a shot at sniping Thalia. (For the record, the guy also plays Shardless, and I made the mistaken assumption that he would be on that again, as he beat me 2-1 last time with discards out the wazoo.) To make a long story short, I ended up mulling to four and keeping a no-lander. I didn't see a single land in any of the openers after that basic Swamp. This hasn't happened to me in some time, but it's a risk, I suppose, on 14 lands (and my having the shuffling dexterity of a sponge).

So I've got a couple of questions. Would keeping the original seven have been a good idea in the dark? If we're not seeing lands, when do we stop mulling? I couldn't bring myself to go to three cards, especially because I had been assuming those three would've become two really quickly if he was still on Shardless. Can't help but feel I punted, though.

Speaking of punting, funny story: in round 3 against Post, I Emptied T1 for 18 goblins (I was reasonably sure he didn't own Tabernacle), and he Rotated into a Glacial Chasm during my end-step. Shenanigans ensued because he couldn't find anything and bled himself out with the Chasm while I had no plays. "War doesn't determine who is right, but who is left."

[EDIT: Another funny story. If you guys haven't had the pleasure, try to find a way to watch a mirror match of 12-Post versus 12-Post. To say things get silly is a bit of an understatement.]

@Ronald Reduce
Just to say 12 Post Mirror's are very interesting to play and to watch;)

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

So I've got a couple of questions. Would keeping the original seven have been a good idea in the dark? If we're not seeing lands, when do we stop mulling? I couldn't bring myself to go to three cards, especially because I had been assuming those three would've become two really quickly if he was still on Shardless. Can't help but feel I punted, though.

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Against an unknown deck, I would probably keep that. Any topdecked land or Petal gets you going. From a statistical point, you can't go below 5 cards without essenially autolosing, because you are unlikely to be able to accumulate enough resources to win before the average Legacy deck burries you

I don't know why you keep saying Thalia is auto lose. It's actually one of the few cards game 1 that is not instant loss. I will wait for a faster clock or additional disruption before scooping to that card.

I would probably mulligan Swamp, DR, Duress, CT, LED, 2 Cantrips. I especially dislike the hand on the play, you'll be doing very little until turn-3/4 too often. But if there was a probe among the cantrips I'd be much happier to keep, as the extra card and information make the hand a lot better.

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Originally Posted by ScottW

I played 3 Thing in the Ice in my sideboard today and was really impressed. My relevant match was against 4 color loam. I like its multipurpose use as a sweeper and damage. For me, it freed up sideboard space and when I brought it in, I took out business.

A fun kill was bouncing his Thalia#1 with the TiTi trigger, attacking with Awoken Horror, and then casting a small Tendrils to win. Another game, my initial hand was double LP, TiTi, Thoughtseize, mana, etc. I played land-LP, cast TiTi, LP, Thoughtseize, take CoV. I won that game after he chumped with Bob and Teige for a couple turns.

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I picked up this card some months ago before the GP, 3x, sweeper role. It was quite solid but the problem was that drawing it later in a game was obviously bad. Nonetheless, I was able to squeeze some wins out of its body and bounce ability against Shardless BUG (not the best MU for it but I tested it in a local and brought it in against all decks; almost) and against a UWG mono-hatebear deck with Teeg, Thalia, MMage among others main. I even had two flipped guys in play and he started to block with his dudes because he had to. Still I had to kill him with ToA for 6 or so because he managed to stall the board with Vial and some stuff.
= rogue stuff for locals.

This morning I played a mtgo league and ended 5-0. Is just weird because my matchups where not good, and I had some weird things happen (r5). So there it goes ^^

2-1 eldrazi.
g1 I discard his chalice and win soon after
g2 He plays chalice for 0, I discard his chalice for next turn and when im gonna win t3 he rips the 3rd chalice...
g3 he has chalice t1 I have combo and landss, he plays no tks and I rip a decay and win.

2-0 elves
g1 he has 1 lands and I gp therapy drs, he plays gsz for driad and draws no 3rd land, I win
g2 he has t1 therapy on led but I dont have any, rip a ritual of the top and cast nauseam but have to pass the turn. He plays glimple + elf trying to draw surgical for my pif and dont do it. He flasbacks therapy and I still win.

2-0 ur delver (olle rade)
last time we played this matchup he won, so now revenge!
g1 I discard his counters, he has a slow clock and I nauseam from 11 with no landrop made, a pif in hand allong with a petal. I win obv
g2 he has reliq and in the combo turn I cast brainstorm wich gives me infernal, he has 4 cards. I play duress with trop and usea untaped. He flusters, I ritual and pay (with still 1 black floating) , he surgicals my ritual and sees 2 lp, 2 led 1 it, then brainstorms and if he dosnt get 2 fow + 1 blue card he looses, then forces my duress. But with no mana and 1 card he has no out and dies to tutor tendrills.

2-0 reanimator
g1 he makes grisel t2 + draw + seize for my tutor but i have top in play allong with led. I see tendrills, and cast a cabal ritual, he draws, cabal resolves and I play another cabal ritual, then flip the top for tendrills (pfuuu!!!!)
g2 well timed therapys and fluster + xantid get his

2-1 reanimator.
g1 t2 or 3 iona I concede
g2 discard + a good combo turn
g3 He mulls and brainstorm locks himself. then he entombs and I fluster, now he is locked. I natural pif but still have a echoing in hand That I need to get rid of. I have to find therapy, led, tendrills or petal in 1 ponder. Find 3 petal, infernal for petal so that I can echoing it. with the mana from thew other. Weirdly the mtgo let me target 1 on play petal then sacrifice the same one to pay for the echoing (and then targetet it in the graveyard) I knew I can anounce spells and then cast them but I didnt thought I could pay them with the mana of the targetet card. Its weird but interesting.


So easy 5-0 :D

gratz! i went 4-1, you screwed up my run XD. it has been a long long while since i lost from storm

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Originally Posted by Noloam_

gratz! i went 4-1, you screwed up my run XD. it has been a long long while since i lost from storm

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;D

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Originally Posted by Togores

2-0 ur delver (olle rade)
last time we played this matchup he won, so now revenge!
g1 I discard his counters, he has a slow clock and I nauseam from 11 with no landrop made, a pif in hand allong with a petal. I win obv
g2 he has reliq and in the combo turn I cast brainstorm wich gives me infernal, he has 4 cards. I play duress with trop and usea untaped. He flusters, I ritual and pay (with still 1 black floating) , he surgicals my ritual and sees 2 lp, 2 led 1 it, then brainstorms and if he dosnt get 2 fow + 1 blue card he looses, then forces my duress. But with no mana and 1 card he has no out and dies to tutor tendrills.

2-1 reanimator.
g1 t2 or 3 iona I concede
g2 discard + a good combo turn
g3 He mulls and brainstorm locks himself. then he entombs and I fluster, now he is locked. I natural pif but still have a echoing in hand That I need to get rid of. I have to find therapy, led, tendrills or petal in 1 ponder. Find 3 petal, infernal for petal so that I can echoing it. with the mana from thew other. Weirdly the mtgo let me target 1 on play petal then sacrifice the same one to pay for the echoing (and then targetet it in the graveyard) I knew I can anounce spells and then cast them but I didnt thought I could pay them with the mana of the targetet card. Its weird but interesting.


So easy 5-0 :D

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Maybe Olle Rade bluffed Mindbreak Trap there.

Costs are paid after targets are chosen, it's just like activating Wasteland on itself.

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Originally Posted by CabalTherapy

I picked up this card some months ago before the GP, 3x, sweeper role. It was quite solid but the problem was that drawing it later in a game was obviously bad.

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Yeah, it was great early but still felt awkward having to spend a few turns to get the win. I don't know, it seems like it could still be of benefit if the game goes longer. I like how it forces your opponent to have more answers and it is aggressive but also can hold off some damage. Against what other matches did you find it helpful?

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Originally Posted by Togores

This morning I played a mtgo league and ended 5-0. Is just weird because my matchups where not good, and I had some weird things happen (r5). So there it goes ^^

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I've beat both Reanimator and Charbelcher with well timed Flusterstorms and discard. Feels great! However, I've recently cut it from my deck. I always just feel lucky to have it and I'm too tempted to bring it in against other decks. Also, I hate being stuck with tutor, mana, Flusterstorm.

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Originally Posted by ScottW

Also, I hate being stuck with tutor, mana, Flusterstorm.

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this happened to me a few times, but it's abolutely not a problem. Make the right mana plus U, cast tutor, cast flusterstorm. The "original" counters tutor, then storm triggers and you have X copies of flusterstorm: the first copy counters the original, the second one counters the first and so on. Or simply make all the copies counter the original spell. Of course you don't pay the extra mana and tutor resolves.