[Deck] The Rock

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Originally Posted by Leto

Wouldn't it be better to play with Mox Diamond, as it leaves u with one more mana source after geddon?

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This is something I was considering, but this requires upping the land count, which cuts into the deck substantially. So it's definitely an option, I'm just not sure immediately how this would work. And similarly, I'm at work, so I don't have a lot of time to think about it. When I get out though I'll look to tweak numbers. Moxen would definitely help and be very, very silly in the deck.

The hard part about moxen though, is that you have to make cuts somewhere. The ultimate goal being that I can disrupt and accelerate, then blow them out with Armageddon and be built to handle that.

So I think the real spot is Deathrite Shaman VS Mox Diamond.
Pro Con list:
Deathrite:
+Isn't card disadvantage
+Can produce a clock
+Isn't reliant on a Loam in hand to be stellar
+Helps fight Graveyard strategies maindeck
+Helps fight burn strategies maindeck
+Can be tutored with GSZ.
-Easier to remove
-Less explosive
-Reliant on a land being in the GY to ramp.

Mox:
+Allows for explosive starts
+Synergizes better with Loam
+Will survive better after an Armageddon
+Turns unneeded utility lands into rainbow lands
-Card disadvantage

Deathrite seems better to me for the role of accelerant, given that the deck is threat light as it is and the bonus of being able to help fight Reanimator and Dredge, + Snapcaster.

i do not think that mox diamond compedes with deathrite shaman for a strategy like this, actually i think you could run both as you do not have to use the full set of moxen
maybe a 3/3 split would be viable, and in this case 23 lands is fine as well.
i have played mox diamonds for a long time before i swithed to deathrite shaman, at this time i was using the full set of mox diamond and 23 lands, and it was not as antisynergistic as people might think, as moxen were just used to maybe get a 1st turn hymn or a 1st turn confidant or maybe goyf out on the field, the rest of the moxen were used for lilianas +1 ability most of the time as they are dead in the mid-lategame.

if you really want to get the armageddon plan to work i think you should run mox diamonds in your spare slots, and maybe 2 manlands in your manabase, so your virtual creature could would increase with the manlands, that generate lots of card advantage together with loam, as they are virtually immortal

As I live in Milwaukee, work downtown Milwaukee, I suppose it's only right that I goto SCG Open Milwaukee next month. I'm torn between bringing my SFM Junk deck that has been doing well at my weeklies and RUG Delver, which I feel will give me a much, much better chance at fighting the combo decks I anticipate showing up at the Open. I'm leaning towards Junk, just because I think a board control, midrange grindy deck will do well in the early rounds. Plus, I like playing it more than RUG Delver.

Other than MOAR DISCARD, what is the plan for the various combo matchups? Just cross your fingers and hope for the best? My maindeck and SB both are geared towards destroying all the other "fair" decks in the format (Esperblade, Jund, etc), but I pretty much have nothing against combo.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

As I live in Milwaukee, work downtown Milwaukee, I suppose it's only right that I goto SCG Open Milwaukee next month. I'm torn between bringing my SFM Junk deck that has been doing well at my weeklies and RUG Delver, which I feel will give me a much, much better chance at fighting the combo decks I anticipate showing up at the Open. I'm leaning towards Junk, just because I think a board control, midrange grindy deck will do well in the early rounds. Plus, I like playing it more than RUG Delver.

Other than MOAR DISCARD, what is the plan for the various combo matchups? Just cross your fingers and hope for the best? My maindeck and SB both are geared towards destroying all the other "fair" decks in the format (Esperblade, Jund, etc), but I pretty much have nothing against combo.

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Discard, Sword of Feast and Famine main deck, and a Karakas / Bog in the land selection for Knight. If you ever get SOFAF online most combo decks can't recover.

Other than discard, the other options seem incredibly slow in dealing with combo. I did like someone's suggestion of Sculler as it's disruption + a beater all rolled into one (like Teeg, Canonist, etc). More 2cc hatebears + more 1cc discard seems fast enough. 3cc options, although more powerful, just look on paper to be really slow. Unless I lead with DRS, tapping out on turn 3 to drop KotR just seems terrible.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

Other than discard, the other options seem incredibly slow in dealing with combo. I did like someone's suggestion of Sculler as it's disruption + a beater all rolled into one (like Teeg, Canonist, etc). More 2cc hatebears + more 1cc discard seems fast enough. 3cc options, although more powerful, just look on paper to be really slow. Unless I lead with DRS, tapping out on turn 3 to drop KotR just seems terrible.

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I'm currently running this list:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
3x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Tidehollow Sculler

4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Maelstrom Pulse

3x Sylvan Library
3x Lilliana of the Veil

3x Duress
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Feast and Famine

some lands

The scullers have been super nuts every time I see them. And SOFAF is godlike. All told it's 10 discard effects that curve out into each other and one of them is a body. Going Inquisition > Tidehollow > Liliana is a stupidly back-breaking play against combo.

Again, depends on the combo matchup you're looking to fight.

Show & Tell decks: Oblivion Ring is probably your best card here, especially against the OmniTell lists.
Storm: Teeg / Canonist (depending on if you're running GSZ or an eTutor board) are strong here. Thorn of Amethyst is also good.
Dredge/Reanimator: Scavenging Ooze, Nihil Spellbomb, Surgical Extraction, Extirpate, Bojuka Bog etc. Take your pick.

Essentially against combo, discard is there to slow them down until you can get a hate bear / real answer out. The reason you need to run more discard in the board is because it's absolutely critical to disrupt them early (obviously, the faster the combo deck, the more critical this becomes) so we have to increase our density of discard to get that early disruption going.

This is my current list. My meta has Jund, Esperblade, UR Delver, Maverick, RiP Miracles, and me (Junk). As such, my deck and sideboard is going on the "I can't be faster than you, so I'm going to outgrind you" plan. I realize that I'm incredibly soft to combo, but I've been beating the fair decks pretty handedly.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant

1 Sylvan Library

3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Lingering Souls
4 Thoughtseize

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay

1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:

2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Choke
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Pithing Needle
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Darkblast

@Arsenal: I actually played a list similar to yours for awhile (I called it the "F you, I'm playing all the awesome 2-drops" plan). Since the maindeck is really powerful against the fair decks, I'd recommend loading up your sideboard with anti-combo hate. I'm talking like 10+ cards for combo.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

This is my current list. My meta has Jund, Esperblade, UR Delver, Maverick, RiP Miracles, and me (Junk). As such, my deck and sideboard is going on the "I can't be faster than you, so I'm going to outgrind you" plan. I realize that I'm incredibly soft to combo, but I've been beating the fair decks pretty handedly.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant

1 Sylvan Library

3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Lingering Souls
4 Thoughtseize

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay

1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:

2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Choke
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Pithing Needle
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Darkblast

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With a list like this, you'll certainly do well against the grindy matchups, but Combo might be a pickle for you. I think with a mix of Cannonist, 1 CMC discard, and pressure, you should be fine. Sculler could be very good, since you can take creatures (Emrakul, etc.) OR spells and be a clock. Another possible inclusion is Hide and Seek if you know you're playing against TES specifically. You also don't have Green Sun's Zenith, which makes Gaddock good, but less awesome. Your 1-of Inquistion could look more like Cabal Therapy, maybe running 3 Thoughtseize 2 Therapy.

I think your sideboard could look a little more like:

2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Darkblast
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Tormod's Crypt/Grafdigger's Cage (Cage is going to be better against Dredge, Tin Fins, etc.) T1 Tutor into T2 Cage is tech.
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of Feast and Famine/Light and Shadow (bringing back guys and life, as well as STP protection might be relevant. Plus, Pro-White is better than pro-Green against Maverick)
2 Cabal Therapy (since you know what you'll be playing against Games 2 and 3)
1 Choke
+2

I feel like Timely is FINE, but not excellent. I don't feel there's a ton of Mono Red burn in the general meta, but you might want it, I'm not sure. These two slots could be more combo hate, Tidehollow Sculler (also tutorable with Enlightened tutor), Surgical Extraction (also helpful against Combo), or 1-2 Sylvan Library. Library is such a house. Another Deed could be good against RIP decks, as well.

While Crucible is good, it's grindy. It does nothing against Combo. I feel like Seal of Cleansing is for Leyline of Sanctity, but how many decks are running it, are they mulling to it, etc. If you need to tutor for Seal to get Leyline, you may already by dead, since you can just go for Cannonist and start the beatdown.

I know O-ring is for Sneak and Show, so if you feel that's a thing, then go for it. I know you don't have Knights, which is also another cause for concern. However, this only works against Sneak in a limited fashion. If they drop Sneak attack off of Show and Tell, you playing Ring removes the Sneak Attack (maybe?). I have to check my timing, but both enter play at the same time, and then your trigger goes on the stack. I'm pretty sure he can put something into play before your ability resolves. Then, you can either remove the threat (which you have to or you die), leaving a Sneak Attack active. I'm not sure what the answer is here, but I don't feel like it's the best answer. I'm not sure what is (beyond Karakas + discard).

-Matt

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Originally Posted by sdematt

I know O-ring is for Sneak and Show, so if you feel that's a thing, then go for it. I know you don't have Knights, which is also another cause for concern. However, this only works against Sneak in a limited fashion. If they drop Sneak attack off of Show and Tell, you playing Ring removes the Sneak Attack (maybe?). I have to check my timing, but both enter play at the same time, and then your trigger goes on the stack. I'm pretty sure he can put something into play before your ability resolves. Then, you can either remove the threat (which you have to or you die), leaving a Sneak Attack active. I'm not sure what the answer is here, but I don't feel like it's the best answer. I'm not sure what is (beyond Karakas + discard).

-Matt

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Yeah, Sneak & Show can somewhat play around O-Ring by dropping Sneak Attack off of the Show & Tell. Your O-Ring trigger then goes on the stack (presumably targetting Sneak Attack) and they can activate Sneak Attack in response.

You can't ever get the guy they drop off of Sneak Attack with your O-Ring since they activate Sneak Attack when your O-Ring trigger is on the stack targetting Sneak Attack.

This does require them to have 4 mana instead of 3 to go off. Again, O-Ring is much better against OmniTell, but it's still really good against Sneaky Show too.

Show & Tell decks are so resilient that it's very difficult to completely shut them out with a single card, thus the need for a combination of cards like Discard + hate bears/O-Rings, etc.

I played a pair of Phyrexian Revokers for awhile too, which were ok. Again, you can name things like LED/Putrid Imp and you can hold onto it for Show & Tell decks too since if you drop it off the Show & Tell, you can name what they dropped (say Griselbrand or Sneak Attack) and it's too late for them to activate it since Revoker is an "As it enters the battlefield" ability and not a triggered ability.

That seems like a better board. I ran Seal of Cleansing to bolster the Esperblade and RiP Miracles matchup; that can definitely go. I think I'll keep O. Ring in the board as it's just so versatile and I find myself boarding it in alot. I think I'll try out Sculler in the free slots for the control and combo matchups.

Here's another sample one:

2 Cabal Therapy (I'd use Duresses if you end up putting a couple Cabal Therapy main)
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction (these can come in against combo as well since we have discard)
2 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Krosan Grip (I like these against control and you can even bring them in against Sneak/Omni Tell if you have to)

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...7&iddeck=75337

A list, more traditional (but most of the Italian lists are), that won an 84-man.

-Matt

Hi guys. Trying to build Junk as I like grindy tight play fair decks. However due to budget concerns at the moments I'm in not sure which way to go. My main dillema from the 'traditional' junk staples are Bobs and Goyfs and Seizes. I currently don't have the funds to invest that much on such cards.

The list I'm planning to build.


4 Wasteland
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Savannah
3 Bayou
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Swamp

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Dark Tutelage
3 Sylvan Library

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Duress
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

My thoughts on this list...

I would like to fit in Sigarda as a finisher. I have the GSZ package already.

I feel that the Stoneforge and the GSZ plan don't really work out together. But I'm not sure on which part to cut. Maybe do the 3/3 split on both and free up slots for other things. Or a semi-transformational sideboard.

Dark Tutelage is a compromise to Bob as I feel that the deck needs that effect regardless of the mana cost.

Swords to Plowshares.

Lilianna of the Veil. I know she's crazy good. And wouldn't mind getting 2 coppies or so. But where to fit her.


My meta is Goblins, Elves, Show and Tell, Deadguy, Maverick, Canadian and Esper.

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Originally Posted by RaZe

Hi guys. Trying to build Junk as I like grindy tight play fair decks. However due to budget concerns at the moments I'm in not sure which way to go. My main dillema from the 'traditional' junk staples are Bobs and Goyfs and Seizes. I currently don't have the funds to invest that much on such cards.

[list]

My thoughts on this list...

I would like to fit in Sigarda as a finisher. I have the GSZ package already.

I feel that the Stoneforge and the GSZ plan don't really work out together. But I'm not sure on which part to cut. Maybe do the 3/3 split on both and free up slots for other things. Or a semi-transformational sideboard.

Dark Tutelage is a compromise to Bob as I feel that the deck needs that effect regardless of the mana cost.

Swords to Plowshares.

Lilianna of the Veil. I know she's crazy good. And wouldn't mind getting 2 coppies or so. But where to fit her.


My meta is Goblins, Elves, Show and Tell, Deadguy, Maverick, Canadian and Esper.

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I would probably not bother running tutelage, it just curves out awkwardly. I would cut them for Swords, cut a wasteland and a green sun's zenith for 2x Liliana of the Veil. I would also probably cut a Knight and Stoneforge for 2 more discard, probably Inquisition of Kozilek. In fact, I would actually swap Duresses with Inquisitions and just run 2x duress. Or 2x Cabal Therapy.

So:
-4 Dark Tutelage
-1 Knight of the Reliquary
-1 Stoneforge mystic
-1 Duress
-1 wasteland
-1 green sun's zenith

+4 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Liliana of the Veil
+3 Inquisition of Kozilek

Green sun and Stoneforge can work together. Though some people drop Green Sun's here in favor of Lingering Souls, which provides awesome synergy with Stoneforge Mystic and Liliana. Souls + Jitte is dumb good.

If you play Lingering Souls, you can also use Cabal Therapy instead of Duresses for hand disruption.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdematt

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...7&iddeck=75337

A list, more traditional (but most of the Italian lists are), that won an 84-man.

-Matt

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Only one combo deck in the top 8, the other 7 lists were grindy decks (Miracles, Blade Control, Jund, etc). That tourney seemed riped for Junk to come in and wreck house.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RaZe

Hi guys. Trying to build Junk as I like grindy tight play fair decks. However due to budget concerns at the moments I'm in not sure which way to go. My main dillema from the 'traditional' junk staples are Bobs and Goyfs and Seizes. I currently don't have the funds to invest that much on such cards.

The list I'm planning to build.

...

My thoughts on this list...

I would like to fit in Sigarda as a finisher. I have the GSZ package already.

I feel that the Stoneforge and the GSZ plan don't really work out together. But I'm not sure on which part to cut. Maybe do the 3/3 split on both and free up slots for other things. Or a semi-transformational sideboard.

Dark Tutelage is a compromise to Bob as I feel that the deck needs that effect regardless of the mana cost.

Swords to Plowshares.

Lilianna of the Veil. I know she's crazy good. And wouldn't mind getting 2 coppies or so. But where to fit her.


My meta is Goblins, Elves, Show and Tell, Deadguy, Maverick, Canadian and Esper.

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You may want to click the Rock list in my signature (or go back a couple pages) for additional ideas. I've been working with a list that is SFM and GSZ that seems to incorporate your request (Sigarda and Liliana). It does however run Bob, Thoughtseize, and a Goyf. Sculler has been used for some as a replacement for Bob (forgot who, it's a couple pages back) and may be useful in that slot until you can get Bob.

I am also using also Moxen but they're not needed. I use Mox for fixing more than acceleration. I am thinking of dropping the 1x top in place of something else as I'm tired of putting mana into it. I feel that my 2cc slot is cluttered and Dark Tutelage may be a better call. Have you run a couple matches with it? How has it preformed for you?

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In that list, Matt, do you have an idea of what the pyroblast is supposed to be? Is it actually a Pyroblast?

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Originally Posted by damionblackgear

You may want to click the Rock list in my signature (or go back a couple pages) for additional ideas. I've been working with a list that is SFM and GSZ that seems to incorporate your request (Sigarda and Liliana). It does however run Bob, Thoughtseize, and a Goyf. Sculler has been used for some as a replacement for Bob (forgot who, it's a couple pages back) and may be useful in that slot until you can get Bob.

I am also using also Moxen but they're not needed. I use Mox for fixing more than acceleration. I am thinking of dropping the 1x top in place of something else as I'm tired of putting mana into it. I feel that my 2cc slot is cluttered and Dark Tutelage may be a better call. Have you run a couple matches with it? How has it preformed for you?

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In that list, Matt, do you have an idea of what the pyroblast is supposed to be? Is it actually a Pyroblast?

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If you don't already run Sylvan Library, and are dissatisfied with spending mana on Top, just play like 3 libraries. They're so much better than anything else. Even if your 2 drop is cluttered, that card will single handedly win you so many games it's silly. If you play it and it isn't countered or destroyed by your next turn, you know you're in a super good position because: A: They probably don't have it, B: Your clear to drop dudes, C: You have a fucking Library out and you're going to win the game.