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Sorry to hear that. Rogue's Passage seems infinitely bad. A colorless land that's only useful with 5 mana and creatures in play just doesn't seem relevant at all. There are significantly better options for giving the deck reach - namely equipment and MOM to provide color protection or running creatures with evasion built in.Quote:
Originally Posted by haganbmj
I've seen it win games. It's (kind of) legit
I've been toying around with the idea of Rogue's passage, but could never whole-heartedly commit it to the deck. One big consideration is what land to cut, and it boils down to Horizon Canopy, Maze of Ith or your Depths Stage combo.
While it is a card that will win games via a hexproof and equipped Sigarda or a Knight, it's role for me is only capitalized on if the game goes on a stalemate.
6-3 to miss day 2 at GP DC with Vial Maverick (similar to door's Ovinogeddon list), punted g3 of round 9 spectacularly (missing an on board kill) and absolutely should have made it to day 2. I'll post a full report and a list in a bit.
The box summary: 2-1 vs Grixis Delver, 2-0 vs Miracles, 2-0 vs Fish, 2-1 vs Punishing Loam, 0-2 vs Deathblade (w/Nemesis), 1-2 vs Loam Pox, 2-0 vs ANT, 2-1 vs Junk, 1-2 vs Elves. Only actual punt was the last game of the day, but I was punted to in multiple games and got very lucky in a couple more. I absolutely should have made day 2. The deck felt extremely solid and I felt as if I only lost to poor play and variance, rather than poorly building the deck or playing the wrong strategy. A couple rounds were more or less gifted to me by opponents drawing or playing terribly, but overall I think the deck performed quite well.
EDIT
Here's the list:
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
3 Birds of Paradise
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Weathered Wayfarer
2 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Sylvan Library
1 Crop Rotation
4 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Cavern of Souls
SB:
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Cataclysm
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Crop Rotation
3 Ethersworn Canonist
The list is tweaked from door's list. I didn't like Safekeeper as much, added a second Stoneforge, and switched out Garruk for Elspeth. I also preferred Canonist to Mindbreak Trap in the board, and splashed for Zealous Persecution in anticipation of TNN and Elves.
Round 1 I played against Grixis Delver, and I absolutely should not have won the match, but my opponent was hoping to burn me out in game 1 and so aimed Bolts at my head instead of killing a dude in response to me equipping Sword of Fire and Ice. As it turned out, I also had Jitte, so when he put me to 3 with a flipped Delver in play and a Bolt in hand, I just slammed Jitte onto my Sword-equipped guy and put myself way out of reach. Game two he beat me pretty easily due to me having no good options and playing into his disruption and removal, but game 3 I curved Mom into Thalia and he fumbled a play with Stifle (forgetting the Thalia tax) that let me Wasteland him off the mana he needed to do anything relevant. Time was called and he graciously conceded to me on turn 1 of extra turns rather than maybe force the draw.
Round 2 I played against UW Miracles (the Karakas/Clique/Venser version with no Helm) and I got lucky enough to resolve an early Vial in game 1 and then draw my singleton Teeg. Vialing Teeg in response to a Terminus miracle trigger blew him out, and while he kept up a good fight with flash dudes and spot removal, I kept Karakas + Vial open to protect Teeg at all times and he eventually got beat down. In game 2 I curved Wayfarer into Thalia, then cast a turn 3 Revoker, against his board of Top, 2 basics, and a fetch. In response to Revoker he flipped Top (without looking first!), and something told me I should name Jace, the Mind Sculptor instead of blanking Top ... he fetched and shuffled his Top away in order to play a Clique at the end of my turn, bottomed his own Pithing Needle with Clique, untapped, attacked and passed. I figured I had probably hit with Revoker if he had no play, so when I untapped and played Cradle to power out a Sword of Fire and Ice and equip it, I equipped to Thalia instead of Revoker. He Plowed Thalia in response, I got in for 3, he untapped, drew for his turn, and scooped, showing me a hand of 3x Jace and 2 land. Leveled! I think a better and more careful/conservative Miracles player would have destroyed me in this game, but I'll take it.
In round 3 I played against Fish. He opened with Island, Cursecatcher, followed by Wasteland, Standstill. I had a bunch of lands in my hand (including a Wasteland for potential Mutavaults) so I was totally fine with just hitting land drops for the next 5 turns while taking 1 a turn. Turned out he had no lands and ended up discarding a few times. When I ran out of land drops I just started casting multiple spells a turn, building a massive board presence very quickly and ending the game in two swings of a Jitte/SoFI-equipped Knight, and paying no attention whatsoever to the multiple True-Name Nemesis he had finally started to deploy. Game 2 I had a Cavern in my opening hand, so I got to resolve Knights on turns 3 and 4. He got a few fish out and had attacked for the first time with a 4/2 Nemesis when I EOT tutored for Marit Lage and killed him. This match was not close. A good player would have mulled his G1 hand for certain and it would have maybe been a real game, but I don't think he had a chance in G2.
Round 4 I played against Punishing Loam. I got brutalized in G1, when my opening of Vial -> Vial, 1-drop, 1-drop was reduced to 0 permanents by a maindeck Ancient Grudge and a Devastating Dreams for 2. I watched him dredge for a few turns with no permanents in play to see what he was doing and then scooped. G2 he opened on Mox Diamond -> Thoughtseize -> Cabal Therapy, ripping a Knight and a Sylvan Library out of my hand, but the card he left me was Phyrexian Revoker and it turned out he got screwed out of the next several turns of the game by Revoker naming Mox Diamond. I found a Vial and a Cataclysm before he could get a threat online and then started ripping sick 2-drops and he died. In game 3 it came down to a Knight battle, but his Bojuka Bog was sitting useless in his sideboard (a severe oversight, given that he had seen Knight in my hand the previous game) and mine was not, and he misplayed a Liliana allowing me to attack her to death, so my bigger Knights prevailed. This guy was a better player than he acted in this round, and he knew that the match was entirely his to lose, but he rallied and I think he went pretty deep into day 2 and almost cashed.
Round 5 I played against Esper Deathblade and it was not a close match, I got thoroughly outdrawn. My opponent found 3x Deathrite and 2x Stoneforge Mystic in the first 4 turns of G1, and while I almost stabilized with Revoker on Jitte and Mom/Scryb to prevent profitable attacks, his 4th Deathrite off the top did the final points. In game 2 he had Swords to Plowshares for my turn 1 Mom, turn 2 Revoker, AND turn 3 Knight, and when he played a True-Name and equipped it with a Jitte, I had one out: draw the Marit Lage combo. I actually did draw both halves of it, but by that point he needed to literally have 3 complete blanks in hand and 2 more on top in order for me to successfully race him, and as it turned out he had a Wasteland and I was just very dead. I think the matchup against this deck is winnable, and if I had drawn as well as he did it would've been a competitive game, but I just didn't and he executed his plan well. This player ended in top 64.
Round 6 I played against Loam Pox. He did what Pox does in game 1 and I scooped to him Loaming back a Tabernacle and a Wasteland while I had 1 or 2 permanents at most and no cards in hand. In game 2 I had a strong series of draws and managed to Vial in a Knight right as he ran out of resources, which by that point was a 2-turn clock due to the number of my lands he had killed. He missed on Innocent Blood and it got there. In game 3 we whittled each other down until I had a Vial on 2 and he had a Liliana on 1 counter. I felt pretty good about this game state, but I drew 4 lands on my next 5 draw steps and ended up dying to Cursed Scroll and Mishra's Factory. I might've been able to cut down on his clock by Wastelanding his Factory instead of his Bayou (I was more scared of Loam than I was of the top of my deck being no action at all) but I'm pretty sure I just lost to variance on this one.
Round 7 was basically a gift, I played against ANT and ripped perfect after keeping a terrible hand in G1, putting a topdeck Teeg in play on turn 4 (he had stalled on mana after his first turn) and effectively ending the game on the spot. In game 2 I played Revokers on LED and Petal, but he went off with Ad Nauseum on my third end step, from 18 life, and hit 12 cantrips, 2 land, 1 Empty the Warrens, and 1 Cabal Ritual ... in other words, nothing at all. He untapped, Brainstormed twice looking for the nuts (he did not find it), and conceded. Magic is a skill game sometimes.
Round 8 I played against a removal-heavy Junk/Rock deck, packing Goyfs, Stoneforges, Sinkholes, Vindicates, Decays, Bobs, Deathrites ... just a lot of 1-for-1s and attrition engines. However, I nutted him in game 1 with Vial -> Mom + Vial in Mom -> Vial in Stoneforge, play Cradle, play and equip Jitte, give protection to Mom, attack (active Jitte on turn 3 on the play is a big game). Jitte killed his Bob, he didn't have a Decay for it when he untapped, and then I put a Revoker into play naming his 2x Deathrite and he scooped. In game 2 he just played a ton of removal spells and beat me down, more or less exactly his game plan. In game 3 he killed a ton of my lands with Sinkholes and Wastes, but I had drawn the combo. He had one chance to kill Stage and went for my only colored source instead. Then I stalled for time until I could combo off and he died to a Marit Lage. He didn't understand the Stage/Depths interaction, so a judge was called, but when it was explained he told me that he was happy that this, of all ways, was how his tournament ended, and that he had had a great time at his first GP, and we shook hands on a good match.
Round 9 I played against Elves and cursed my luck. I died badly in game 1 like my deck always will, getting Hoofed out of the game on turn 4 without having applied any significant pressure. In game 2 I had 2x Canonist and Teeg out by turn 4, and that was that. Then I opened the perfect hand in game 3: 2x Zealous Persecution with mana to cast both, a Mom, and a Revoker. I killed his first wave of Elves and found a Canonist. At this point the game was in a state where his only out was to Natural Order for Progenitus, and we both knew it. I think we both knew that I still had a Persecution left in my hand. If at any point I had cast Persecution pre-combat and swung with my team of Birds, 2x Mom, Revoker, and Canonist (or even just my bears), I would've successfully raced Progenitus. But I was thinking about Persecution as a Plague Wind rather than a Glorious Anthem, and when he untapped on the turn he was going to cast Natural Order, he prompted me on his upkeep and I panicked and fired off the Persecution. He fetched a Dryad Arbor, made Progenitus, and proceeded to win at 2 life. There were 3 consecutive turns when I could have won easily by Persecuting pre-combat, and my opponent basically Jedi Mind Tricked me into casting it at the one point in the game when it would not do the damage I needed it to, and my easy on-board kill fell short. Looking back over the day, I can't find any other play mistakes that decisively lost me games ... all the other games I lost, I was pretty much strictly outdrawn rather than outmaneuvered. But when it mattered, I choked and punted spectacularly.
Thoughts on the list: I think I would not play Elspeth again, given the choice. In fact I don't think I would play a 4-drop at all. I would rather have Qasali Pridemage in the deck, ideally as a 2x (but all the other cards performed well so I'm not sure what I'd cut for the 2nd). I think that aside from that, though, the list is strong enough to be competitive in most fields. I got lucky in a couple of my rounds and unlucky in a couple others, and I outplayed my opponents more than they outplayed me, so the virtual 7-2 (since the win in round 9 was readily, obviously available to me) makes me at least feel good about the list and want to stick with the plan.
How are you guys reacting to true name nemesis? I am playing GWb now (even though punishing fire was awesome at SCG LA) and I am playing SoFaI and Zealous Persecution out of the sideboard.
He's usually an issue g1. Most likely, you probably lose to him if one is out. They deny the aggro route of finishing the off the opponent. Zealous Persecution is a good idea. I didn't think of this. But, I think Engineered Plague is a better idea since it's a permanent spell, which is what i use to deal with him.Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
Maindeck Sword of Fire and Ice is strong enough against True-Name that I think it gives you a real chance at G1. The old no-Mystic/2-Jitte package is much weaker with Nemesis in the field (although Scryb Ranger flying over to activate Jitte and race is still a real plan if you can protect it). So I think Stoneforge + SoFI is going to be standard for a while, and I think it's a good way to fight TNN.
Zealous Persecution is real and I personally splashed it as the only black in my list at the GP. It is not ideal since it doesn't do anything once their Jitte is active, or a Lord is out, or Nemesis gets a toughness boost in any other way at all, but it's strong enough in general that I think it's worth playing. Plague might be better, although it is significantly worse against several of the matchups where Persecution shines (D&T and the mirror for example)
Personally I think going completely over the top with Marit Lage is the most powerful way to fight TNN decks, but you often need a lot of time to maneuver into a game state where you can reliably pull it off, so it's not totally consistent. I think the opportunity cost of running the combo is low enough to make it a good option though.
There have been a number of people who have done pretty well with the depths/stage combo (door, Fabian Goerzgen, Jacob Lindy), and it can still come out of left field at EOT if you have knight/scryb ranger. I think I am going to try running that for a while, in addition to a 2 x stoneforge Jitte/SoFaI combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pans-Advocate
Thanks for the detailed report. Too bad, you missed day 2 while struggling through some difficult matchups. There are no obvious decisions in this build and the more you play with the deck, the better it performs. So next time you will have a better result.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pans-Advocate
I would still recommend to run Garruk, it really shines against Jund and Shardless BUG, which are tough matchups.
Also respect for killing ANT without Mindbreak traps =)
I haven't played against TNN yet, mainly due time issues and MODO being a clusterfuck, but wouldn't E-Plague in a E-Tutor board work against Nemesis, too?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pans-Advocate
I'm also suprised that nobody discusses Humility which the recent Bant lists of Reid Duke and Sam Black ran. Once resolved, it prevents Elves from doing anything broken, makes Sneak & Show's threats into jokes and also stops TNN, as witnessed in the quarterfinals.
DD combo sounds like a plan, considering Maze of Ith kinda sucks in a TNN meta.
In a 3-color build like Dark Maverick, access to Engineered Explosives sounds like a plan, too.
If I ran Humility I would absolutely also be running Lingering Souls. I wouldn't trust my treat density to be able to beat a deck like Elves otherwise.
Glimpse of Nature + Cradle can be your nail in the coffin under humility - I'm not sure that it is good option, I found that Gaddock works also very well - they have to draw Craterhoof natural which isn't too common, It also stops destroying Jitte by GSZ an answer, along your creatures are still good enough vs army of 1/1s.
Note: Humility cost 4 mana - which mean you can be already dead.
Humility is awful in deck with creatures that do things and are big. You are really reaching if that's your solution for something in a deck that revolves around men with power and toughness and utility abilities. it's also 4. 5 probably if you are doing anything productive. For every win it sacks you into it's a cinder block in 10 other games. If you're terrified of Sneak Attack play Blind Obedience for christ's sake. Or man who is root maze for their dudes.
Ensnaring bridge is actually pretty sick as well, considering we can still attack under it with noble hierarch. It helps me vs sneak/elves the most. In fact, much of the sideboard tech from maverick's early years are becoming pretty good again.
Aside from threatening to race with a big knight of the reliquary and fliers, any other ideas on how to beat true-name nemesis with the GW build? Thanks!
Sword of Fire & Ice + <Rhox War Monk> seems to do the trick. Replace the RWM with any lifelink beater or Batterskull if you can't fathom how to fit in :g::w::u: into the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by test1985
If you splash blue to fight TNN (oh the irony) Rafiq actually seems like he would be pretty sick. If you're going to race, may as well race very quickly. Also he gets cast off of Cavern which is always a plus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
If you don't splash bant, Terravore still connects despite TNN's protection, and seems pretty decent in general right now. I would like to see some Terrageddon decks come back.
I playtested a couple games vs true bant, true patriot, and true blade with the fauna/retainers/elesh norn combo, and it was not actually that bad. Very few of these decks play any real grave hate, and Deathrite shaman should be one of the first STP targets anyways (for Maverick in general). Also, the dark depths combo is good, but many of these new TNN decks are playing a high jace count, so don't walk into that with your Marit Lage.
i like your Terrageddon suggestion, ironclad8690. much like ATS, erhnamgeddon has always been one of my few pet decks.
Naya Punishing Mav with Terravores is a nice mix, given that DRS based decks can be picked off by Punishing Fire.
just don't know how it'll go against combo though.
4 Noble HierarchsQuote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
4 Green Sun's Zenith
in a typical build. Doesn't seem like if you splash blue syndrome. Maverick already runs blue... Rafiq is just a meh card. Go all in on exalted plan, sure hope no one runs instant speed removal and chumps. If you're looking to race quickly, play Natural Order and grab a craterhoof behemoth. 4 mana green cards should be winning you the game.