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Hey folks,
I wanted to post a list, that I tested on a tourney once.
The main differences to regular goblin-lists:
- 12 Lords
- No Warchief
- only 2 Ringleader
- strange card-choises
- no Wastelands, but Mutavaults
12-Lord-List
I want to hear some first impressions and comments on the deck before I start to explain what drove me to play this weird list.
GL
I think you could explain first, but ok...
1st: nice idea. Going to test it.
- Piledriver seems subpar in that list. That looks more like the strategy of merfolk, and there, Waketresherer is bad. Looks like a 1 off would be ok, since we can give him haste, but with 12 pump lords, I dont think he's needed. I'd take them out for +2 Ringleaders and 2 Weirdings.
- Mox Diamond seems bad with only 22 lands.
-Mutavault makes sense in that list.
-Goblins with Vial have no need of Summoning Trap.
- While writing I think that this list could actually be good with Warren Instigator. Try him out. (great with pumpers)
- SB looks completly weird. Please explain.
again: nice idea.
EDIT: wow! forgot Mogg War marchal! he should be nuts here! buying you time, and getting 2 huge guys later. Way better than Piledriver!
Boartusk Liege also.
Re the 12 lord list - far too awkward.
Merfolk's 12-16 lord build works because coralhelm and lord of atlantis are 2 cc, giving the deck a reasonable curve. Running extra 3 drops and removing warchief magnifies the existing curve/mana issues goblins has in a traditional build to no particular benefit.
That said, if you want to pursue that path 4 warren instigators seems a must, both for curve and doublestrike synergy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScatmanX
I wanted to copy Merfolk, just to try out if their plan works for Goblins, too.
We dont have counters so I play removals insted (which they dont have).
My basic idea was, that almost every Merfolk has a better Goblin-equivalent (considering both manacost and function):
Cursecatcher < Goblin Lackey
Lord of Atlantis > Goblin King
Merrow Reejerey < Goblin Chieftain
Merfolk Souverein = Mad Auntie
Silvergill Adept < Piledriver
Standstill = Wort, Boggart Auntie/ Ringleader
Counter = Removal
As to the sideboard:
I were in a mood to try out sth new. Thats why I added Explosives SB + Mox Diamond MD.
The Trap was funny, but useless most of the time. It hit counters several times but often you just replace Goblin Lackey for Piledriver with it, so no real advantage.
Should have played 4 Chalice, 4 Crypt, but those 4th slots were dedicated to EE as I said.
After all, this list isnt much weaker than a regular Goblin list. Its big advantage ist, that you can even kill with nothing but 2 Lords, and that you aren't afraid of mid-range-creatures like Rhox Warmonk anymore, cause you can securely block when you have Mad Auntie.
Another advantage is the surprise factor, when you have 1 Lord in play, and next turn you get 2 more (cats + Vial pitch). That really IS dangerous.
Stingscourger becomes a better blocker as well, and you can trick your opponent by letting Mutavault activate itself to make Gepalm Incinerator better.
I thought about what you said and this is my new list (without Piledriver and Matron)
//Lands [22]
7 Mountain
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Auntie's Hovel
1 Swamp
4 Mutavault
//Creatures [27]
4 Lackey
3 Instigator
3 Mogg War Marshall
4 King
4 Chieftain
4 Mad Auntie
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 SGC
//Removal [7]
3 Incinerator
2 Warren Weirding
2 Stingscourger
//Spells [4]
4 Aether Vial
SB:
3 Perish
3 REB
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Anarchy
4 Ley-line of the Void
Can anyone think of SB cards that really shine in this list and less in others?
That list looks way more promessing imo. But I'd definitely add 3 Wastelands in place of 3 Mountains, at least.
Don't know about the sb yet. What MU's does this list improves, and which ones get worse?
And I really don't know about Boartusk here, specially if we're sb'ing Perish. But it may not be needed, depending on or MU against Zoo...
I tested a heavy lord build some today and it actually performed (even) worse than I expected. It was very slow, very clunky, and lost speed and utility for... well, no particular advantage, actually. Stacking many lords in play is a cute concept but doesn't pan out well with them all costing 3, and no warchief cost reduction.
I didn't test it much. I can give a short report from that tournament, but with 7 rounds and only my memory to rely on ...well, at least the pairings and outcomes are correct:Quote:
Originally Posted by ScatmanX
1st round: Aggro Loam - 2:1 (Goblin King was killer. Blocking + regenerate via Mad Auntie, too).
2nd round: Lands - 2:0 ( he started with Tabernacle in g2, I bet him with double Mutavault)
3nd round: Merfolk - 2:1 (he forgot TWICE that my Mutavaults have islandwalk. They were annoying, like 6/6)
4nd round: Dreadnought/Depths - 1:2 (in g3 I had warren weirding for DD, stingscourger for Dreadnought, but none for the 3rd nought that came 1 turn later)
5th round: MBC - 2:0 ( in g2 he had triple E. Plague, I had 4 Lords)
6th round: Counterbalance+ ??? 2-0 (didnt see his wincondition)
7th round: Rock 2:1 (in g3 I had 1 land under 14 cards, this one got me a 1st turn lackey, who brought 3 lords and 1 SGC)
After all it's a bit lucky, cause I didnt get paired against critical MUs. I never tested against Zoo. Against ANT it used to be like with any other regular Goblins list: wait and see.
As I said: I didnt test it much, but here is what I consider general advantages and disadvantages of this version
+ it can deal with huge creatures better
+ it's comfortable with 2-3 creatures (1-2 of which should be lords).
+ it has virtually more creatures than regular lists (mutavault)
+ it can "trick" your opp by starting: mutavault, vial, go (so he expects counters)
- it doesnt have wasteland
- it can't tutor via matron
- it tends to get into lategame
- it is not as explosive as other lists (it's more predictabvle for opps)
@ "red fish" attempt
1. Matron is more comparable to Silvergill since what you are trying to compare is their function and not their casting cost. Since Silvergill nets one card, that is what you want from this slot; hence Matron is more suitable than Piledriver. In this respect, Piledriver is more like Wake Thrasher.
2. Reejerey and Chiefttain cannot be compared since one functions as removal or vial trickery while the other is a haster. Chieftain provides tempo with his haste but that's about as much as it does outside of giving other goblins +1/+1.
3. Fish's strength is that it can Counter Spells.
4. Fish now play 16 lords where as we have 12 and cannot play 4x Boartusk Liege. And let's be honest, they are as good as Sovergn which is pretty bad.
5. Fish is usually mono coloured which means they are less prone to land disruption. When they are splashed, they are not as reliant on their second colour as we would have to be.
Therefore, the Fish-like goblin deck will not work. I think this one done already maybe 100 pages back. I propose a different direction. Instead of being more fish like, we should be more Zoo-like. By Zoo-like, I mean being a more burn oriented deck instead of a lord oriented deck. Goblin's first pick is already really good, why weaken it with Mutavaults and Goblin Kings. Here is a list I've been experimenting on which is a more burn oriented build:
Lands (22):
4x Wasteland
2x Rishadan Port
16 Mountain
Removal (8):
3x Lightning Bolt (very good removal, I hate dilluting with non-goblins but you need this against Zoo in this build)
3x Gempalm Incinerator
1x Stingscourger
1x Lightning Crafter (bolt #4; gempalm #4; whatever you want to call it; it does funny things with ringleaders and matrons)
Artifacts (4):
4x AEther Vial
Goblins (26):
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Piledriver (usually acts as finisher/removal; very good against combo decks)
4x Goblin Warchief
3x Mogg War Marshal (very good against enemy aggro decks)
2x Seige-gang Commander (makes lackey hits more scary)
1x Skirk Prospector (flex slot)
I have tested this build against enemy aggro decks and its pretty good. The Skirk Prospector/Seige-gangs seem to keep counters off the jittes while the removal takes care of the creatures. Against blue control decks, we are still goblins and rule the world. Against firespout, we are still goblins. Against non-blue control decks the Humilities are annoying but our sheer numbers should manage. The Moats don't hurt as much since we just shoot them in the face. Post board I usually bring in Anarchies vs white control and Price of progress vs decks that run a lot of non-basic. Our combo match ups are still like any other mono red goblins. Maybe it could be better due to the threat of Price of progress/Lightning Bolts main and due to our fast clock with Piledrivers. I'm thinking we could move it to a black splash as well, but as I've tried the black splash and didn't like it, I opt for mono red consistancy and speed.
The R/W splash is actually the best version against aggro (swords is better than lighting bolt at killing shit) but regardless, you make valid points against the lord list. We don't have force of will and standstill to sit under. Therefore we need to find other ways of being fast and getting our shit into play. Matron is one of the best cards in the deck, it really needs to be played.
What do you think of Nameless Inversion instead of Lightning Bolt (in a Rb list of course)?Quote:
Originally Posted by JonBarber
Nameless Inversion
Tribal Instant - Shapeshifter, 1B
Changeling (This card is every creature type at all times.)
Target creature gets +3/-3 and loses all creature types until end of turn.
+ it's synergic with Matron/Ringleader
+ it costs B with Warchief
- it doesn't hit players
yeah but that requires a splash, and the trade off really isn't worth it. Most big creatures can be gempalmed (3 war marshal + 2 siege gangs) or stung and the little ones eat bolts.. so..... Plus, bolt can finish games where as plow cannot. Again, my list is a burn oriented list so I aim to either remove OR burn face...Quote:
Originally Posted by JonBarber
although plow would be very nice against Reanimator's sphynx, but I'm not so sure that's a major concern anymore...
Sorry, that's horrible. Not only does it cost more than plow/path/bolt, it doesn't really get the job done. The only advantage it has is that creaturse cannot regenerate and weirding does a way better job of that.. Just because it's a goblin doesn't mean we should play it.. (tarfire case in point)Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
Quote:
Originally Posted by jin
- with Warchief in play it costs the same as StoP/PtE/Bolt and it DOES get the job done as good as Bolt
- for StoP/PtE you have to splash W (which is tested before and considered worse than splashing B)
- that creatures can't regenerate isn't it's only advantage (as you can see in me last post)
- I don't want to play it instead of Weirding but in addition to it (in SB) so compairing them isn't very helpful
- Tarfire does 2 dmg while Inversion (virtually) does 3
It doesn't kill rox war monk or tarmo...swords ftw...Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
(stress lies on words in bolts)Quote:
Originally Posted by kinda
Again: I consider it an alternative for LIGHTNING BOLT and maybe as a SB card in a Rb LIST.
2 Anarchy
3 REB
4 Ley-Line
3 Perish
3 Nameless Inversion
So comparing it to PtE/StoP and Weirding doesnt make sense here.
It's still not as good as swords...
...which we dont play since testing revealed that Rb are R are the most successful versions. Thanks for your help.
Metas are always changing and decks are always changing. Over the course of legacy Rw goblins has actually been really damn successful. Don't count out a splash just because Rb and R were the most successful these last couple months. Keep an open mind about this stuff, just like you are asking people to do with the Gob Fish idea (although personally I think it goes against the core philosophies of what makes goblins a good deck).Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
Actually, white splash looks alright in today's metagame. Anybody seen people play serenity? If all these permanent like decks start popping up (stax, enchantress, etc.) along with already the aggro decks (STP + white has other good anti-aggro tools), the white splash is actually looking MORE attractive than the black.
In fact, I'll go cook up a list and test it out a little now.
I have played Nameless inversion in Rb goblins when it came out.It wasant bad, but there are so many better cards for that slot nowadays.
In the SB you suggested:
2 Anarchy
3 REB
4 Ley-Line
3 Perish
3 Nameless Inversion
Pyroknesis would be way better than Inversion. Bolt would be better also. Inversion is better in some situations? YES. But the versatility Bolt and Knesis provide make them way better.
I played W splash a while ago and had Serenity in SB. It was a good against Staxx, I didnt meet other decks where I could board it. Still, I think we dont need Enchantment/Artifact hate in SB. Anarchy does well against all critical Enchantments + it hits other things as well + its out of Counterbalance's rangeQuote:
Originally Posted by FoulQ