[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

Neat suggestions.

I'mma try the Phyrexian Metamorph idea. I like there being an answer to Kira, Thrun, Progenitus, and Emrakul that's the same card, as well as something that lets me play more than four Meddling Mages. Not a whole lot of other things I'd need to copy, really, but the fact that he could randomly be an opponents' Divining Top or something could be pretty neat.

Dream Tides is pretty weird tech. I'd be afraid to rely on it to stop Thrun, as decks that run Thrun almost always have enchantment removal in some form. But it's a neat ability nonetheless.

Klaus your missing stoneforge mystic. Cut the ponder, and the shackles and run that card. It's clearly miles ahead of shackles, and it gives control a superior beater (Batterskull)

I feel that 4 Mistep is clearly too many.

It seems barely correct not to maindeck Wrath in Knightstill. It certainly doesn't make sense in U/w. Phyrexian Metamorph is an infinitely weaker and less versatile answer to Metamorph than Wrath. For all the memetic nonsense about how Wrath is bad, its main shortcomings are against Merfolk, and Metamorph is no better as an answer there, and far worse when you can stick it.

This might be a noob question but what is knightstill. Is it the new lists with stoneforge or did i miss something.

IBA is refering to the list he posted 1 or 2 pages back (featuring Knight of the Reliquary and Tarmogoyf).

I believe the Hatfields piloted a variant of UWg control list packing KotR as a resource/win condition fetching Mazes/Wastes etc.

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Originally Posted by mossivo1986

Klaus your missing stoneforge mystic. Cut the ponder, and the shackles and run that card. It's clearly miles ahead of shackles, and it gives control a superior beater (Batterskull)

I feel that 4 Mistep is clearly too many.

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tbh, I haven't tested Batter Skull + Mystic, but in theory it should be an extremly common scenario to go Mystic -> Skull and have Mystic removed the same turn, blanking the neat ability to cheat Skull into play.
I think I might give it a shot, but generally I clearly prefer to blank my opponents removal suite over rocking a combo that only works like 40% of the time. It's simply to fragile if you consider all you opponent's removal just stacks up over the game.
Thoughts?
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4 Missteps is the correct numer if you rely on resolving STPs through opposing Missteps as much as I do.

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Originally Posted by klaus

tbh, I haven't tested Batter Skull + Mystic, but in theory it should be an extremly common scenario to go Mystic -> Skull and have Mystic removed the same turn, blanking the neat ability to cheat Skull into play.
I think I might give it a shot, but generally I clearly prefer to blank my opponents removal suite over rocking a combo that only works like 40% of the time. It's simply to fragile if you consider all you opponent's removal just stacks up over the game.
Thoughts?

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Klaus i agree with you fully it did well at GP because it was unknown now people are running more cheap removal or artifact hate out of the board. I have been running a UWR list that did well at Bazzar of Mox 5 that i had add mental missteps to and been testing.

1 Academy Ruins
4 Brainstorm
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Eternal Dragon
4 Flooded Strand
4 Force of Will
1 Island
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Plains
1 Plateau
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Spell Snare
4 Standstill
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mental Misstep
4 Wasteland
SB: 2 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 3 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Sower of Temptation
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Divine Offering

the mental missteps were 3 spell pierces and 1 Nevinyrral's Disk disk. This list during testing has done well against a lot of the aggro decks and stoneforge decks but is a little weak to control. Any advice would be great

Just picked up some Jaces, want to try a fairly classic list out. Any glaring oversights in this one?

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Decree of Justice
1 Humility
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Wrath of God
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm

1 Academy Ruins
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Plains
3 Island
1 Celestial Colonnade

I would find room for a Volcanic/Underground/Tropical so you can set EE at 3.

Why isn´t there any discussion going on about the whole UW Stoneblade Landstill variants? Is this a different thread or isn't there any interest in the inclusion of Stoneforge Mystic, Batterskull & friends?

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Originally Posted by Tom T

Why isn´t there any discussion going on about the whole UW Stoneblade Landstill variants? Is this a different thread or isn't there any interest in the inclusion of Stoneforge Mystic, Batterskull & friends?

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I was planning to ask the same question as well. Is there a seperate thread for the UW Stonestill?

I was also wondering if it is optimal to run 4 MM? Thanks

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Originally Posted by paladin3056

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Originally Posted by Tom T

Why isn´t there any discussion going on about the whole UW Stoneblade Landstill variants? Is this a different thread or isn't there any interest in the inclusion of Stoneforge Mystic, Batterskull & friends?

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I was planning to ask the same question as well. Is there a seperate thread for the UW Stonestill?

I was also wondering if it is optimal to run 4 MM? Thanks

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I too was thinking the same thing. Search function doesn't reveal much.

As for the 4 MM - I think so, it hits so many targets in the format and having another way to react on turn 1 for free is always good :)

the reason this deck HAS to play misstep 4 is the namesake standstill ! lose the counterwar for vial against merfolk T1 and you will see why...

You ought to be running Repeal, so no, 4 Mental Misstep is not necessary or, in my opinion, optimal. I think a 4 Force/3 Misstep/3 Counterspell split on the countersuite is a reasonable starting point.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

You ought to be running Repeal, so no, 4 Mental Misstep is not necessary or, in my opinion, optimal. I think a 4 Force/3 Misstep/3 Counterspell split on the countersuite is a reasonable starting point.

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Misstep is the mainreason LS is experiencing a revival.
I'm too lazy to do the math, but being able to cast Standstill due to Misstep having cleared the way on turn 0.5/1/1,5 is a very common scenario in my testing.
Unless everyone starts cutting their 1-drops it's quite unlikely I'll be cutting a single Misstep in the future.

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Originally Posted by klaus

Misstep is the mainreason LS is experiencing a revival.
I'm too lazy to do the math, but being able to cast Standstill due to Misstep having cleared the way on turn 0.5/1/1,5 is a very common scenario in my testing.
Unless everyone starts cutting their 1-drops it's quite unlikely I'll be cutting a single Misstep in the future.

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That's simply not true. The reason landstill is seeing a revival is because Gerry T and Drew Levin piloted landstill, and some guy thought it would be a cool idea to run ancestral visions over standstill.

These type of things happen every few years. Some guy tries to reinovate the control deck, another guy plays ancestral visions because it's "super sweet"

The bottom line is that the speed-still approach is quite simply not as resilient as more traditional variants. You mine as well be playing UW tempo with a splash for some slightly better cards.

4 Mental Misstep is clearly incorrect, and if you can't see it; I don't know what to tell you Klaus. Landstill runs between 22-24 lands, not counter cow or dragon, adding in 4 misstep's clearly hinders your late-game. In my own opinion I feel like landstill shouldn't be playing misstep at all, but that's just me. If your opponent is playing vial the nominal percent of the time he draws it on 1 or 2 and he's goblins/merfolk/slivers/ some versions of maverick then I guess i'm just going to have to accept my responsibility to force it, and see if the force gets there. If not, I guess I just have to resolve my threats like normal, instead of falling for this trap that is a tempo war. Your not trying to gain tempo, your trying to break theirs. By playing into the misstep war, or a vial war your accepting that you cannot continue the game without dealing with such cards. I don't think this is the correct approach at all.

I agree with moss for most parts, but I'll disagree on that MM is 'useless' in Landstill.

For one, at least people are not dumb enough to cut Snares/Counterspells in favor of MM. This is definitely the wrong decision to cut Snares/Counterspells since there are many bombs that can't be answered without Counterspell/Snare/FoW. At the same time, MM functions very similarly to what Snare does. The question is: Are there enough targets and worthwhile threats that need to be countered by MM the way Landstill favors playing Snares? I think the answer is yes. For the time being.

MM hits Vials, Lackeys, Thoughtseize/Duress/Pierce, Ritual, High Tide, SDT, Nacatl and a TON more important spells (e.g. GSZ/Hierarch in Bant which accelerates to an unfavorable KotR/NOGenitus a turn faster). Moss, you are dead right in saying that MM isn't for Landstill if it's used as an edge to gain tempo advantage. This I agree with you dead on and people who pilot Landstill using MM with this mentality is doing it wrong (e.g. GerryT's UW LOLstill with repeals and Llawans and Submerge). However, I feel that most people who've come to see what MM does in the format (in tempo decks) can also observe what MM does if it's used outside of gaining an edge. In Landstill, when I play with MM, it's the same reason as I play with SNares: I anticipate a meta of relevant 1cmc bombs. Sadly the format is still filled with one. Landstill does fine without MM like it did in the past, but with MM, it frees the use of FoW for later game-breaking counter fights. I usually don't MM at every chance at get despite the feeling that it maybe a 'dead' card in hand. This train of thought is wrong. You use MM/Snare when the situation demands it (i.e. do you have EE in hand etc?). I think this is the key difference between maximizing the power of MM in control decks. For myself, I see MM in the same light as Snare, with the added benefit of actually powering out Standstills (this is a huge boon of MM but I primarily see it as a counterspell similar to Snare).

I don't think it's wrong to run 1-4 MM, just as I don't think it's wrong to run 1-4 Snares. I do think it is wrong if someone thinks that they need to play 4 MM to be a successful Landstill pilot. THe number of MM in your deck is directly correlated to what the strategy of the deck is employing, to which I agree with Moss that Landstill may or may not need it, depending on which approach it is heading. Moss pointed that the 'speedstill' approach of 1-1'ing and then playing an x-1 spell to gain late-game advantage is not as strong as the traditional approach. I don't necessarily agree with this, but I think that's one way of looking at it. At the same time, there are just about enough benefits of MM to justify or at least question if MM should be played like a counterspell that functions similarly to Snare. I personally like playing 3 MMs. If I don't draw them early game, too bad for me, but I know that I play 3 MM because I'm worried about 1 mana spells that do affect my game, whether it's early/mid/late-game. That's the reason you play cards in decks. If I'm playing MM just to gain a boost in the early game, then that's ENTIRELY the wrong reason to play MM in a control deck, because if you don't draw MM early, you lose. However, if your maindeck is playing MM to account for its deficiency to 1cmc bombs at any point in the game (not just early game), then MM becomes much justifiable to play, and has the additional bonus on answering early game 1cmc threats when you do draw MM early, or setup for a standstill.

Less talk, Knappstill-ish list that I've been testing and bringing to my playgroup for more testing tomorrow:


60 UWr Scepterstill
24 Lands (23+1Edragon)
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Plain
2 Island
3 Tundra
1 Plateau
2 Volcanic Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
2 Wasteland
1 Eternal Dragon

6 Win
1 Isochron Scepter
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor


13 Permission
3 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

9 Removal
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lightning Helix
2 EE

9 Draw
4 Brainstorm
1 Top
3 Standstill
1 ETutor


15 SB
2 REB
2 Negate
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Peacekeeper
1 Path to Exile
1 Humility
1 flex slots (2nd Scepter being played here right now)


This list has a very strong matchup against aggro decks, in particular SFM/Merfolks/Bob/Goblins/Elves/Zoo. The weaker matchups are mid-range Rock/KotR decks, which have to be played more tightly given the loss of sweepers maindeck. 1 Scepter in the MD was the last testing I've done about 6 months ago, and it worked great when you drew it with something to imprint (over 14 hard spells to imprint).

The 2nd Scepter is brought in against decks with little artifact removal (Merfolks/non-GWx aggro/Control/Combo). 2Negate/2REB in control mirror along with 3 Cliques has been pretty solid, Relic + Peacekeeper against GY-based decks e.g. Dredge/Reanimator and Negates/Peacekeeper/Humility/REB against Show/NOBant decks. Path comes in against Tombstalkers/KotRish decks. So far the list seems too tight and I've been trying to squeeze the 4th Standstill. I decided on the lone ETutor instead of the 4th Standstill to reduce the awkward situation where I open with no MM/FoW against Vial decks.

@Lightning Helix. I've tested Fire//Ice in its place. In all honesty, Fire//ICe is stronger these days due to huge prevalence of Bobs/Cliques/NORug/Merfolks/Tribal/SFM, but I still end up prefering Helix (due to Zoo in my meta), and the ability to race control/aggro/combo when you imprint Helix on a scepter. I remember the good days where I would race 5-power merfolk Lords with Helix to the face when going to time. Helix also surprises opposing Jace if they decide to brainstorm (somewhat narrow but it has that option, and it kills Nacatls as well).

Will let you know on testing. I made a promise to quit playing Landstill for awhile, but I just can't help but sleeve it out again.

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4 Mental Misstep is clearly incorrect, and if you can't see it; I don't know what to tell you Klaus. Landstill runs between 22-24 lands, not counter cow or dragon, adding in 4 misstep's clearly hinders your lategame as it takes away card quality later in the game. In my own opinion I feel like landstill shouldn't be playing misstep at all, but that's just me.

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I think it is just you. Does the fact that any deck ending in "-still" sucked ass between the debut of Triton's Minions and MM's printing not indicate to you it's necessity as a 4-of? Gerry may have started the trend, but the best players in the world (i.e. the pros) universally used a full set in their various whatever-still control decks in Providence. Those who've written about it even testified that it had become another automatic slot alongside Brainstorm and Force of Will for said decks. Just like that, pure(r) control became viable again overnight.

Powerful 1-drops exist in Legacy, many of which can mark the beginning of the end for slow [Ux] control if they're not dealt with quickly and efficiently. Sometimes, those 1-drops aren't cast on the first turn which means Misstep, contrary to popular acknowledgment, is not dead on turns 2+. If it's reeeally a problem, you can just Brainstorm (a very Misstep-able spell) it away with one of the 4 JTMS you should also be running. "Traditional" lists still suck now as much as they did starting in 2008, which is why they're still not top 8ing events and still not being played except by the handful of self-titled old guard players who can't help but remember what Landstill was like in Type 1.5 when it was "super sweet," always forgetting the entire last 3 years.

@ Metalwalker: May I remind you that you shouldn't run any less than 3 EE?

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I personally think that SDT (as a three of ) + Path to Exile is a better early-game plan than Mental Misstep + Spell Snare.
As Moss said you're not particularly furthering your own gameplan with Misstep (and Spell Snare) that is hitting your land-drops and then smashing with 4cc bombs. SDT, on the other hand, ensures your land-drops while digging for a sword/EE.
If Mental Misstep enables Standstill, that's another point I admit, but I don't think that MM enables Standstill on a consistent basis, since you're not the only one running MM.

I don't know what Moss is suggesting, though.