Perhaps Maverick. Gonna try 2 Rough Main in the flex slots and up the Elemental to 2 in SB.Quote:
Originally Posted by MethadronGer
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Perhaps Maverick. Gonna try 2 Rough Main in the flex slots and up the Elemental to 2 in SB.Quote:
Originally Posted by MethadronGer
Thoughts on the following list that finished 13th out of 342 at SCG Colombus?
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=62707
The maindeck is original, with only 2 Goyf and 3 Stifle. I also like the Ground Seal and Young Pyromancer in the SB.
Has anyone posted a detailed sb plan for each of the decks to beat recently?
I'm curious what people take out against different decks, and if people change on the play vs the draw.
I'm kinda curious how people are trying to deal with TNN. I used to board out FoW, but I have been thinking about keeping it in more to have more hard counterspells to it.
In combo match ups, I also know a lot of people will take out bolts, but I have been usually taking out a combination of Bolts and goyfs for the combo match up.
Are people running a couple TNN in the board, or are people still sticking with things like Jace/Clicque?
I just tried Sasan's deck tech... well half of it at least. I ditched the mainboard rough and counterspell last second for 2x spell pierce because I saw 4 regular combo players come in. This is my current list:
Instant (26)
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
1x Dismember
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Spell Pierce
3x Spell Snare
4x Stifle
Sorcery (4)
4x Ponder
Land (18)
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Tropical Island
3x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland
Creature (11)
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Nimble Mongoose
3x Tarmogoyf
Enchantment (1)
1x Sylvan Library
Sideboard (14)
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Artifact Mutation
2x Flusterstorm
2x Golgari Charm
1x Life from the Loam
2x Pyroblast
2x Rough/Tumble
2x Submerge
1x Underground Sea
1x Grafdigger's Cage
MU were:
Jund lost in 3
Doomsday won in 2
Esper Stoneblade won in 2
Dredge won in 3
Not too sure how good the golgari charm plan is since I never really had to use it. The stoneblade list game 1 I just saw stoneforge and snapcaster. I wasn't sure if he had TNN or was just playing a more conservative list and decided to not risk siding in possibly dead cards.
As for the TNN dilemma that RUG decks are in what about skullcrack? It seems really good if we swing with Tarmogoyf, but trading a goose for a TNN seems really bad.
I'm thinking about trying the Sapphire Charm plan to deal with Batterskull and/or go over other creatures. Another thing that I found while digging for phasing cards what about Vision Charm? It seems like it has potential to just buy a turn by nerfing all of the opponents lands on their upkeep.
I keep some Bolts in, as combo players might bring in Xantid Swarm. Yes, yes, "but Swarm is bad against deck with Bolts" and "but they won't bring in Swarm because of your Bolts" and "you shouldn't keep Bolts, because they won't bring Swarm in" and all other next level next-levelling... Simply take out the secondary removal and keep three to four Bolts, it's enough for their 2-3 XS and it still may finish them or lower their life total before AdN, if they keep it in.Quote:
Originally Posted by that0neguy
I take out Mongooses, esp. when I anticipate EtW and thus bring in Roughs. Mongoose is low impact slow card, while Goyf may kill in few swings.
I also keep in 2-3 bolts in almost any combo mu even if they don't have annoying creatures like xantid swarm.
They are 2 ways to beat combo:
Either you gather a powerful hand with infinite counterspells ,land a creature and win slowly or you just try to race them.
The second version is especially good against slower combodecks such as mono u omnitell.
The key to victory is to land 1-3 creatures(delver and goyfs),counter their cantrips to force them to topdeck perfectly and finish them in 4 turns.bolts increases the clock.
- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -
Also flash creatures are quite powerful. I sometimes bring even the Elemental, if there's a card to take out for it.
I never board out the full set of bolt against TES or ANT. Cause so they never can drain them down to 3 or less life with Ad Nauseum.
For me the decision to keep in bolts doesn't depend on xantid swarm at all. To me, keeping in bolts is usually the go to plan. I usually like to take out 2-4 Tarmogoyfs before I start to take out any bolts. My logic being that I never need to cast more than 1 tarmogoyf, and I would rarely ever need to cast a tarmogoyf early. If I have 4 Goyfs in, there is a decent chance they are just sitting in my hand, not wanting to tap out for them. Bolts can still mess with their math with ad nauseum. The MU is also usually strong enough that you don't need to bring in more than 4 cards (3 REB and a Flusterstorm in my case)
Against sneak and show it is usually a bit trickier, because you still don't really want to tap out early for tarmogoyfs, but bolts have a much more marginal role here as well. There have been G1s though where I have blocked a greisbrand with a delver and then bolted it before damage to prevent them from gaining 7, and then swinging back with a lethal goyf or mongoose. If you board out goyfs though, the plan to keep bolts in can be less powerful as well though. I have been going -2 bolts -2 goyf +3 reb +1 flusterstorm.
What about TNN? All we can really do is REB it, or keep them off 3 mana right? Do you guys keep FoW in for those MUs?
Oh, I think I should do the similar and cut one Goyf. Do you keep Mongooses? Ppl like them, as they're one drop, but it takes eternity before they grow so I tend to cut them. My idea is that the first turns are about control and only Delver has any meaning, because it is cheap and fast. Once you'll gain control over the game, you rahter wish to play the 3/4 Goyf thn 1/1 Mongoose.Quote:
Originally Posted by that0neguy
Also, I play Needle and Cage in sb, so I took those in when they matter. Cage is not the best card against PiF decks, cause they may win with IT chain or simply EtW for a lot, but I still like how it covers one angle, the gy combo. Needle is obvious.
Mongeese probably aren't ideal, but I like them better than tarmogoyfs for the casting cost alone. Most of the time I think you really only need to bring in 4-6 cards at most. I think the most I would consider brining in would be 3 REB, 1 Flusterstorm, 2 Rough/tumble. I would take out all 4 goyfs before I took out geese. I don't really like the idea of going under 8 creatures.
Well, i do the opposite, I take out Mongooses. It takes too much time before they are big enough, and in the menatime they die to Rough. Yep, it's annoying to tap out for the Goyf, but you should be able to find an open window once you're at three mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by that0neguy
In my experience sneakshow and Ant have to be combat differently.
I: Sneakshow decks normally uses cantrips until turn 3-4 and then go off (most of the time by playing a solland followed by either show and tell or sneak attack.
Against this deck we can easily deploy tarmogoyf on turn 2 especially if we are on the play.
Tarmogoyf is a 3/4 immediately and knocks down our opponent dead in a few turns like delver does.
I board +3 Pyroblast +2 Spell Pierce + 1 Pithin Needle +2 Ancient Grudge
-2 Nimble Mongoose
-1 Tarmogoyf
-2 Dismember
-3 Spell Snare
Opening hands:
Don't keep bad hands!!
For example,i would keep this Hand against sneakshow:
Tarmogoyf
Scalding Tarn
Volcanic Island
Wasteland
Brainstorm
Daze
Lightning Bolt
While this Hand would be an immideate mulligan:
Force of Will
Force of Will
Tropical Island
Misty Rainforest
Stifle
Wasteland
Spell Pierce
Make sure you have business(creatures or cantrips to find any).A hand without action does not do anything.
II: Against Ant things look a bit different.
The best way to beat Ant is to screw their manabase and counter their cantrips if possible.
Stifles and Wastelands combined with Daze are the key here.
Spell Pierce,Spell Snare and Force of Will remain in our hand as they are hard countermagic (yes even spell pierce) until our opponent goes off.
In this scenario it is not that easy to tap out turn 2 for goyf because our opponent can take this opportunity to fetch for basiclands or simply just combo off very quickly which they can.
boarding:
+3 Pyroblast
+2 Spell Pierce
+1 Grafdiggers Cage
+2 Rough/Tumble
-4 Tarmogoyf
-2 Dismember
-1 Tropical Island
-1 Lightning Bolt
- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -
Maybe you could post your Sideboard?Quote:
Originally Posted by sawatarix
Sideboard:15
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroblast
2 Spell Pierce
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
2 Rough // Tumble
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Submerge
- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -
@ sawatarix: Yep, your microanalysis is correct. I just wish to add that the more time we give to ANT player, the better his chances for sculpting the hand are. Also, he may get himself out of the manscrew. So this is why I dislike Mongoose. But maybe it's the correct approach.
Concerning nimble mongoose and ********:
Gaudenis vidugiris who won legacy GP Atlanta a few years ago played 3 copies of though scour which i like.
It does have many little synergies with Brainstorm,Ponder,Delver,Tarmogoyf,Goose,Submerge.
I would give scour a chance again to "flip" our mongeese quickly, i'm just not sure about the slots we have to take out for it.
For reference,here you can find gaudenis' list.
(I would not cut stifle )
Any thoughts? :-)
- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -
I'm always a bit astonished when I see people siding out Goyf against combo: Goyf seems to me like a great card in these matchups, cause it represents fast clock for 2 mana.
Delver is just better of course, but if we don't draw it we need another clock, and Goyf seems better than Mangoose for this purpose: from my experience, reaching threshold vs combo decks is a bit slower than against aggro or control, so Mangoose will take too long to grow to an acceptable clock.
So, if I have to side out some creature, I always choose to cut Mangoose instead of Goyf.
I understand and agree that tapping out on our 2nd turn vs ANT can be problematic, but I'd surely prefer waiting until 3rd turn to cast Goyf (leaving 1 mana open) than casting Mangoose on my second turn and waiting several turns before it decides to grow up.
Yep, Mongoose is slow. I think I'll stay true to Goyfs.
Missing link: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=47548
On the Thought Scour: I got similar feeling as with Probe, it's a card that is more cute than good and I also don't know what to cut from md. Will you shave threats, answers or cantrips? And on the above list: three Bolts are simply bad.
Cutting Tarmogoyf against Combo in favor of more control elements is probably okay. Canadian Threshold used to function on only 8 creatures for years; there's no reason a Delver of Mongoose alone or together won't be sufficient. Bolts are usually only okay to cut against Show Decks, switched out for Pyro/REBs.
Anyway,
I've been thinking of methods for Thresh to better its poor matchups pre-board. Here's a list:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Chain Lightning
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
Essentially,
-3 G. Probe
-1 Fire/Ice
+4 Chain Lightning
Helps combat Elves, SFM, DRS, DnT, Merfolk, functions as reach against TNN match ups, and, to a degree, Lili, Jace.
Because the overall blue count has been dropped, and due to a slower meta, I also propose:
-1 Force of Will (To Sideboard)
+1 Spell Pierce
If SotL pushes DnT back to the forefront, the Chains should probably be Forked Bolts.
Thoughts?