[Deck] The Rock

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Originally Posted by damionblackgear

Sculler has been used for some as a replacement for Bob (forgot who, it's a couple pages back) and may be useful in that slot until you can get Bob.

I am also using also Moxen but they're not needed. I use Mox for fixing more than acceleration. I am thinking of dropping the 1x top in place of something else as I'm tired of putting mana into it. I feel that my 2cc slot is cluttered and Dark Tutelage may be a better call. Have you run a couple matches with it? How has it preformed for you?

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That would be me :wink: I used a full set of Sculler because I didn't have Bobs at the time, and I was also using 3x Thoughtseize/2x Iok/2x Liliana/3x Hymn all in the maindeck. I didn't realize it, but the meta-game I was diving into was swarming with combo. I took first in my first tournament there because of the insane hand disruption. I was also playing a full 3x Sylvan Library because I didn't have Bobs. I needed the bodies for pressure because believe it or not Bob does make a difference in combat, especially if he is feeding you discard/removal to keep the game state in your favor.

Fast forward a month and I've got my set of Bobs sleaved up, but I end up dropping the Hymns for Scullers. I found that Hymn is only good in narrow cases, mostly against decks like RUG Delver and Burn. Sculler had always performed amazing for me, so I had no reason to cut in that department. Curve Thoughtseize>>>Sculler>>>Liliana and live the dream, baby.

In regards to Dark Tutelage, it's just plain wrong. If you have access to :b::b: then you are much better suited to using Phyrexian Arena instead. I think both options are wrong if you have access to more Sylvan Library's. I tried Arenas for a little while, but it got incredibly awkward. A time walk on turn 3 with underperforming value was really lousy. Sylvan Library at least gives you the equivalent of a Top activation and the option to draw into more gas. I'd rather draw one card that is the best of my top 3 than get an extra card that might not even matter. With Bob, you're getting the body and a significant threat if left unanswered. Whenever I've resolved a Sylvan Library it hs been the stone cold nuts. Play 3-4 of those before you try something like Dark Tutelage or even Phyrexian Arena. It curves out better and only hurts you mildly more than Dark Confidant. The important part is that it feeds you insane card quality as long as you play at least 7-8 fetchlands and a few other shuffle effects (GSZ, Knight.) If you rock some sort of lifegain in the maindeck, like if you're doing SFM + Batterskull/Jitte, then Library gets even better. Padding your life to allow for extra cards is pretty sweet.

My current quandry is my lack of Goyfs...I have 2 now, but I think getting up to 3 would be ideal.

Current list:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Tidehollow Sculler
2x Tarmogoyf

3x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Lilana of the Veil
2x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Vindicate
2x Sylvan Library
1x Sensei's Divining Top

4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Misty Rainforest
2x Bayou
2x Scrubland
1x Savannah
1x Dryad Arbor
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Treetop Village

(maindeck = 61 cards. I'm playing 22 lands with 61 in the main...it feels a little low, even with Deathrites and GSZ. I might have to drop to 1x GSZ to make room for land #23. Testing will tell.)

Sideboard:

4x Natural Order
1x Progenitus
1x Empyrial Archangel
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Pithing Needle
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Gaddock Teeg
3x Surgical Extraction
1x (flex spot, could be Umezawa's Jitte, Engineered Plague, Golgari Charm, Tormod's Crypt, or Oblivion Ring)

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Originally Posted by Kich867

If you don't already run Sylvan Library, and are dissatisfied with spending mana on Top, just play like 3 libraries. They're so much better than anything else. Even if your 2 drop is cluttered, that card will single handedly win you so many games it's silly. If you play it and it isn't countered or destroyed by your next turn, you know you're in a super good position because: A: They probably don't have it, B: Your clear to drop dudes, C: You have a fucking Library out and you're going to win the game.

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Testi-FY, brother. 100% agree. It should be renamed 'Stone Cold Nuts I Win Enchantment'

Going into my signature. Word.

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Originally Posted by damionblackgear

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In that list, Matt, do you have an idea of what the pyroblast is supposed to be? Is it actually a Pyroblast?

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I'm 100% sure that's a joke Pyroblast for the showboats. He places first WHILE playing 61 cards AND it being almost uncastable.

-Matt

Thanks for the replys.

@damionblackgear - I looked up your vids and learned a lot from them. Amusing commentaries nontheless.

As for the updated list...

4 Wasteland
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Savannah
3 Bayou
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Swamp

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze / Sigarda

3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sylvan Library

2 Lilianna of the Veil

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Duress
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Raze, it looks okay although I'm not a fan of combining the GSZ build and the Stonefirge build. Also, your black mana curve is a little light needing 2for Liliana, maybe a savannah should be a scrubland?

No Dark Confidants hurts.

Raze, maybe Maverick would be better suited for you until you get Bobs and Goyfs. The Maverick players have even been testing running Thoughtseize, Abrupt Decay, and replacing Hierarch with DRS; it may be what you're looking for.

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Originally Posted by RaZe

Thanks for the replys.

@damionblackgear - I looked up your vids and learned a lot from them. Amusing commentaries nontheless.

As for the updated list...

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Happy that I could be of assistance. Don't worry about combining the two, it works. It does lead to a more complex decision tree. It'll be discouraging, but it's worth it. You'll find that you'll notice a lot of other branches in other decks as well.

I do think that your manabase could use some minor adjustments. More so, I'd suggest that you swap a Bayou for a Scrubland. It'll help you play around Submerge a well as provide a way to not be wasted off a color (1 of each). More fetches would also help as you are running DRS and more fetches increases the potential for it's use on turn 2.

I'm also running 14-ish creatures so I know that'll work with the Equipment. I'd try to fit in the Bob's as they come. They do help quite a bit in the regards of having an attacker as well as gaining additional creatures.

Stick it out, regardless of what nae-sayer(s) may say. The mixing works very well when you're use to it as well as provides additional lines of attack that many decks have difficulty adapting to. Remember to always make adjustments that make it harder to lose without sacrificing ease of win. Keep an open mind about what's a staple (everything changes). Overall, I think you'll like your choices and will enjoy the deck (keeping SFM and/or GSZ or not). I recommend you change decks at the point you think it's optimal. We're never optimal.

Yeah I don't mean to imply that you can't do GSZ and Stoneforge. I just think that each option plays better apart. I think if your going Stoneforge, than you also go Lingering Souls and probably Cabal Therapy as well. It's a more grindy build for sure. That's just my opinion.

Damion, I'm a big fan of your videos as well, helps me see how this deck interacts with a variety of other decks (not just my meta).

dballard - no worries. I'm the devil's advocate.

In other news, there's a "Junk" deck on the SCG stream. No list as of yet.

-Edit- List

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Originally Posted by damionblackgear

dballard - no worries. I'm the devil's advocate.

In other news, there's a "Junk" deck on the SCG stream. No list as of yet.

-Edit- List

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Blind Obedience is nice tech against the Sneak and Show decks using Emrakul/Griselbrand, I have to say. Might be better than Oblivion Ring, in all honesty. Plus, once it's in the play, the Extort mechanic does work if you have the time.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Blind Obedience is nice tech against the Sneak and Show decks using Emrakul/Griselbrand, I have to say. Might be better than Oblivion Ring, in all honesty. Plus, once it's in the play, the Extort mechanic does work if you have the time.

-Matt

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great against ANT too.

i have been away from magic for quite a while now, would someone care to tell me about the extort mechanism, as i am not entirely sure how it works

thx

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702.99. Extort
702.99a Extort is a triggered ability. "Extort" means "Whenever you cast a spell, you may pay . If you do, each opponent loses 1 life and you gain life equal to the total life lost this way."
702.99b If a permanent has multiple instances of extort, each triggers separately.

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It's a smaller ability that allows you to Nickle and Dime your opponent per spell, as long as you have an open mana to pay it's cost. It's probably not all that relevant but, it could buy you a closer game every now and then.

Wizard's Explanation.

Apart from being good against ANT, Obedience also completely murders Elves' ability to combo out.

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Blind Obedience is nice tech against the Sneak and Show decks using Emrakul/Griselbrand, I have to say. Might be better than Oblivion Ring, in all honesty. Plus, once it's in the play, the Extort mechanic does work if you have the time.

-Matt

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I'm not a fan of it against Sneaky Show - it pretty much stalls them for a turn. Against Show & Tell -> Emrakul/Griselbrand, O-Ring is better since it actually removes Griselbrand/Emrakul. The only time Blind Obedience is better is if we can swing for lethal that very turn while Emrakul/GB are tapped.

Against Sneak Attack, Blind Obedience only buys us a turn again since Sneak Attack has the Waylay trick available to it (at the end of our turn, they activate Sneak Attack, put Emrakul/GB into play tapped, untap on their turn and attack us). O-Ring is worse here if they have the extra mana to activate SA with O-Ring trigger on the stack, but if they're not expecting it (or able to play around it), O-Ring wins again over Blind Obedience.

That Junk list looks to combine the best elements of the SFM Junk lists and the KotR Junk lists by keeping the main components (SFM + KotR), but cutting the complementary pieces (Lingering Souls + GSZ) in order to make room. Seems risky cutting all that awesome utility (Souls and/or GSZ), but I suppose results speak for themselves. Nice Blind Obedience tech in the SB; may have to pickup 1 for my ETutor board.

I mean, a good S and T player with the right cards is going to beat us anyway. Oblivion Ring helps, but if they drop Sneak Attack off of Show and Tell, we're also boned.

Helping against Elves is relevant, though. I think we have to look at the cards and see how many matchups they're good in versus how few they're GREAT in. I'm sure O-ring is better against Sneak, but it's garbage against Elves, Combo, etc.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by sdematt

I mean, a good S and T player with the right cards is going to beat us anyway. Oblivion Ring helps, but if they drop Sneak Attack off of Show and Tell, we're also boned.

Helping against Elves is relevant, though. I think we have to look at the cards and see how many matchups they're good in versus how few they're GREAT in. I'm sure O-ring is better against Sneak, but it's garbage against Elves, Combo, etc.

-Matt

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Yeah, what I'm saying is that I don't think Blind Obedience is good against Sneaky Show at all. It barely does anything against either Show & Tell or Sneak Attack.

For me, I've never been that terribly worried about Elves simply because of the sheer amount of removal we can bring combined with sweepers from the board. Also, given that Sneaky Show / Omni Tell are much more prevalent in the format than Elves, I'd rather increase the matchup there as well.

Two quick thoughts.

What if Blind Obedience was meant more for a control match-up such as Miracles where it acts as additional reach as opposed to a control styled card in the Elves match? You can usually get them to a lower life total and would just need a couple quick spells to finish the job. We also have ample removal vs Elves. Does anyone know if he posts on the source or could provide some feedback into the discussion?

Anyone given any recent thought to tossing swords. I was digging through the archives of the old thread looking for some posts on why I had cut it before (replaced with edict). The reasoning there was that the format was almost no Aggro. That's a similar situation. We already can adapt better than some of the other decks but cutting swords is something that could change the entire dynamic of our lists. We would have Decay to cover the swords slot and most likely Pulse/Vindicate would remain to cover the top. It leaves us with as much removal as we had before but we become a little more susceptible to Reanimator (not a big deal) and Aggro decks (which are kind of MIA in a generalized meta).

As an Elves player I'd be irritated with Blind Obedience. It kills Glimpse combos, but also several cute tricks that are key parts of the deck's board control ability (like cracking a fetch for Dryad Arbor, block, bounce the Arbor back to hand). Moreover, I'm not necessarily very concerned with Rock decks - I have tons of card draw, some pseudo-immortal creatures and such. All in all good stuff, because it doesn't give you time. I play big dudes that give me a new hand and other funsies, board in Decay and so on. Obedience just gives you more time to deal with the absurd portions of the deck that reinforce it's ability to play the fair game into something that crushes other fair decks. Without the absurdity, well...