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Well, along with Piledrivers BC certainly is a removal spell (not to mention the ridiculous amount of damage ic can potentially deal), but that situation never came up during testing. Most often I developed a boardposition and then kept Borors Charm in my hand to react, in case my opponent wants to do something funny.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScatmanX
The burn-damage was entirely irrelevant so far. As I said: I play Boros Charm very reactively.
Boros charm may be worth consideration in goblin deck,as many other non-goblin spells. The problem is that to run these spells we are abandoning our old mana denial strategy ... gobolord's list runs only 3 wastelands, it is nearly impossible to disrupt the opponent manabase with them.
Someone could answer that mana denial today is less effective due to deathrite shaman and that rishadan port is no more a good card. It is probably true, but the problem i am facing is that in my opinion goblins without mana-denial strategy is no more a competitive deck. It is mainly mana denial that make aether vial a fantastic card, together with other cards like mogg war marshal that allow us to earn time in the first turns and removals. Goblins is a tempo deck (aggro-tempo) : if it runs no more mana denial it becomes a simple aggro deck that cannot compete with other, more efficient aggro decks.
As long as I am running aether vial i will be running 4 wastelands and 3-4 rishadan ports, unless we find a more efficient plan to slow down our opponents , and i don't see any at the moment.
If you see alot of Noble Hierarch/Goblin Lackey/ Deathrite Shaman/ Grim Lavamancer, Tarfire is your card.
I felt very similar to you, however abrupt decay kind of screws up the vial/port strategy. I can't tell you how many games I've played against Rock and Bug, where I start with vial turn 1 and port turn 2, then they just abrupt decay my vial in response.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoCop 90
While abrupt decay isn't back breaking or anything in legacy, it REALLY hurts goblins.
I also have to disagree with you on goblins being a simple aggro deck without port. We can cheat goblins into play and we win with good board/card advantage cards. Port helps with board position. but you don't need it to be successful (we still have wasteland and you don't have to follow Gobbolord's exact list, if you want 4, use 4.). I think rather you are looking at the deck too one dimensionally.
Gobbolord, I'm glad you had some time to test it, I unfortunately haven't yet (I have an infant son right now, so my time is limited). From your results so far, boros charm looks to have some real potential here. I especially love the combat tricks you can do with it and more than that I love that it seems very flexible and useful in many match ups.
I think when I do get around to testing it, I want to try using white a bit more with the core cards. Something with Thalia, Boros charm, RiP somewhere in my 75.
I haven´t seen anyone considering Chalice of the Void as an anti-Reanimator.
Actually I use it like one, because all the main spells on Reanimator is 1 mana.
It forces them to discard they´r creatures and use 2 mana reanimate spells to play.
That gives you time to waste/rishadan they´r mana in order to get more control.
Another thing, how about Goblin Slider?
Is a verry good defensive card. It helped me against active Jitte´s and mass removals like Pyroblast/Pyrokinesis.
It has a good synergy with Krenko, Mogg War Marshal and Matron (since you are not using her 1/1 body for much)
I can post my list later If it helps me make more sense later on this points.
Solid start I'd say.Quote:
vs Enchantments: Krosan Grip is really the one-stop shop here, although Disenchant, Seal of Cleansing and Oblivion Ring are inferior but servicable options
vs Combo: Depends on the combo.
a. Graveyard decks: best=Rest in Peace, decent=Leyline of the Void, Relic of Progenitus
b. Storm decks: best=Chalice of the Void, Thalia, decent=Thorn of Amethyst
c. Tell decks: best=Confusion in the Ranks decent=Oblivion Ring, Stingscourger
vs Hyperefficient Creatures: best=Swords to Plowshares, decent=Pyrokinesis, Dismember, Tarfire, Lightning Bolt
Yes?
Some I can think of that were left out:
Enchant Hate:
-Back to Nature (1G for a board wiper is solid.)
-Nature's Claim (1CC make this one appealing but that's about its only redeeming factor.)
Storm Hate:
-Pyrostatic Pillar (at least for ANT makes it impossible for them to go off)
-Root Maze (not amazing but forcing them off of artifact mana can make all the difference, and even forcing belcher into play tapped can give us one extra turn to answer)
-Cabal Therapy (great against any combo really especially in games 2 and 3 when you know what you're up against)
-Extirpate/Surgical (this could potentially be a catch all hate card. Most decks run very few but very reliable kill conditions. If we can strip even one part of it from their deck that could mean game for us.)
Creature Hate:
-Goblin Grenade (trading 2 for 1 usually isn't good, but the versatility of being able to go to the face is amazing, coupled with its high damage)
-Perish (wipes Tarmo, DRS, and elves if you're meta has those in bulk I'd definitely look into this one)
-REB/Pyro (kills delver, clique and SCM. Bonus points for hating on Jace, SnT, and a few other oddball problem cards)
I think the big problem we're going to face during deck-building is going to be that Goblin Ringleader is our best friend, greatest asset, and yet single biggest detriment. The entire concept of 'It needs to be a goblin or its hitting the bottom' is a problem. Because looking at the hate options it would be effortless to cram some of these in to solve our issues. But because they aren't Goblins we're forced to run 4 if we want any reliable chance of seeing one (only running 1-3 leaves it to open to incidentally shove a vital hate card to the bottom of our library.)
I'm starting to debate cutting Ringleader to be honest. Or at least playing significantly tighter with him. Holding him until all options are exhausted. But as it stands now he may be on the chopping block for me.
Hi everyone! It's been a while since I've posted here, shame to see that goblins isn't a DTB any more but you roll with the punches I guess.
I've played at a small tournament yesterday and was testing some new Gatecrash cards (Legion Loyalist in particular) and I have to say | was genuinely impressed with the little guy. There aren't many cards that can help you win the game against two Batterskulls on board but this little fellow helped me do just that. True, Krenko might have helped a little but I denying your opponent 4/4 lifelinking walls on defence is very good. The other battalion abilities didn't matter as much but I'd say that he is worth it just the "tokens can't block" clause.
Hi guys,
so my last post is a way back but there are some things I have to say. The last weeks (before Gatecrash was released) I tested many games against BUG und Jund and one of the best cards was Sparksmith. Of course, he doesn't have haste but these decks have to answer him asap. You also can destroy cards like Tombstalker oder Goyf if you want or only the little DRS.
GoboLord also mentioned cards like Dismember (or Swords) which also work pretty well. I like Sparksmith because he is a permanentremoval, a Goblin and very flexible.
At the last Tournament (46 people) I finished 6th with two Sparksmith and a plash W and B (SB: 4 RiP, 2 Thalia, 1 Leave no Trace and 3 Earwiq Squad). All these cards did their jobs very well and I would directly play it again this way.
So, after the tournament I played a bit with Boros Charm. Hmm...you can do many funny things with it. You often don't need the 4 dmg thing unless you have 2-3 BC in hand (in my case in about 5% of the games).
Pro: Indestructible often (depends on meta) > double strike. The charm is a flexible card which will find always something to do.
Con: I don't like to fetch to early on Plateau. The other thing is, you will never play it turn two (the turn you're Lackey will run through the DRS), because you have played turn one a Cavern. So, it doesn't solve this problem in the early game.
At last it isn't a Goblin, it couldn't be tutored and is reactive. Surely, this kind of cards can do well but I didn't not feel, the Charm makes things better as other Goblin cards in main.
I agree with GoboLord, you shouldn't play more than 2 or 3 copies of it.
One last thing: In Germany or at TS I often red: "Abrupt decay...mimimi". Yes, this card is annoying, but it's nether the end of Goblins nor a card every opponent plays.
So far from me. I hope my intentions became clear, my English isn't the best.
I have also found Loyalist to be a decent 1-of or 2-of. Against decks that spam out dudes like lingering souls or Elves, he allows us to alpha strike without the opponant being tapped out. I have recently swung a number of times with one or two giant trampling Drivers through a hoard of elves which would have beaten me the next turn. Also, because the trigger is declared at the attack step, it stops us from losing to a well timed Abrupt Decay to kill him and send our goblins into Goyfs or whatever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Annatar
Speaking of Abrupt Decay, a number of people have been talking about it always destroying vials. Vials do help us a lot, but do we not win if we trade 1 for 1 with all of their cards. Vial is card disadvantage because we play it to cheat out guys but don't actually get any board presence from it. Perhaps against some decks it is now simply a removal target to get rid of the spells that would kill, say, Warchiefs or Chieftains. At least against Jund, I am fine with that trade-off.
One last question. Looking at the last several tournaments on SCG, I noticed not only the lack of Goblins, but also a limited number of BUG and especially ANT. Is it ok, in the current meta, to board out storm hate, which is a super bad mu with hate, and put in more graveyard hate which kills BUG and hurts Jund? Seems like we could sacrifice an already bad mu to help win the most common ones...just some thoughts. Shoot them down if they need to be.
Well, in short, saying that Aether Vial is card disadvantage just isn't true. It does provide us with quite a lot of "mana" and allows us to deploy multiple threats at once. Depriving us of that forces us to play "fair" and that's just what other decks want, especially Jund. It is true that it doesn't do much the turn it enters the battlefield, but ot is a card that, given time, will grant as a very tangible mana advantage over our opponents, and that's before I even start taking into account Wasteland and Rishadan Port. In matchups where you just don't have time to wait to tick up vial, against most combo decks, it is a bad card. Against anything else it's a house.Quote:
Originally Posted by Potdindy
I've been struggling recently with goblins so needed drastic overhaul, i decided mana control route was just not working so ports were dropped, and wastelands, and vials restricted to 3Quote:
Originally Posted by Annatar
my deck turned around and beat everyone at the local tourney, instead of just losing, my aggro list
3 vial
4 tarfire
4 lackey
3 MWM
2 Piledriver
2 Warren Instigator
1 Tin Street Hooligan
2 Stingscourger
3 Gempalm
4 Matron
3 Warchief
2 Chieftains
1 Krenko
4 Ringleaders
2 SGC
16 mountains
4 caverns
SB
4 Chalice of void
3 pyrokinesis
3 relic of progenitus
3 thorn of amethyst
1 goblin tinkerer
1 boartusk liege
quotes of the night
opponent griselbands to 2 life i respond with tarfire, quote 'but no one plays tarfire, that is ridiculous.' i win
opponent double e. plagues me when on 5 life i tarfire him down to 3 and am left with a 1/1 krenko which i manage to hit him once with down to 2. He realises he is in trouble and sure enough i ringleader into a matron into a tarfire, quote ' but i double e. plagued you!' i win
The list is aggressive into lackey and instigators dropping into SGC and krenko with chieftains for +1/+1 and warchiefs for cheap ringleaders and cheap alpha strikes through piledriver. it worked!
You are right...I should have thought more before posting that. What I meant to say was in response to a few suggestions of taking out the vials. At best you are correct that the vial kicks butt...I love playing Ringleaders for free then spitting out other guys with my open mana. However, my meaning was that at worst, they are using one of the format's best removal to get rid of a 1cmc artifact. You are correct that vial is so good, especially with mana-denial and I just wanted to reaffirm this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Annatar
Is leigon loyalist a must-have in goblins lists or is it just a nice 1 or 2 of to have? Is it optional to have it or is it a big thing for goblins?
Hi there, great job with that nice looking list. I like those 4 Tarfires. I will try something like that next time I'm playing goblins.Quote:
Originally Posted by orcanmail
With all these Punishing Jund Decks running around makes me think of Punishing Mav. which was a real badass to us. The only time we could get them was, when they got mana screwed, which is kinda hard with DRS. So maybe Sulfuric Vortex is a good SB option again. Especially when splashing white and playing StP. Trade your 5/6 Goyf or 7/7 KotR vs. wait...nothing, since lifegain is forbidden.
Vortex also is a must answer for Abrupt Decay, with all their Bobs around causing loss of life...
I still don't like to play a tribal spell in a goyf heavy meta, but Sparksmith and StP sound like a good option, although I haven't given up on Punishing Goblins yet, since it provides green splash for TSH and Grips, which are a blast!
I'm not really sold on Sparksmith as a removal spell just yet, and not just because he takes a turn to get going. Gempalm pretty much does the same thing without kicking you in the nudgers along the way, but I probably will try it. What are other people's impressions on that card?
Any cool new tech against Sneak & Show? Last time I visited Angel of Despair was a thing. Is there something better at our disposal now?
After extensive testing and tournament play, came to the conclusion that Confusion in the Ranks is strictly better. I've reported the testings late last year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Annatar
Another old/new subject:
Do you guys side out Lackey against Jund? Only on the draw or on the Play as well?
If your list does not run Tarfire/P.Fire, would it make you side differently?
Thanks.
Just an idea,
Assuming a mono red aggro deck packing 4 tarfires already, how about dropping vials completely for 4 Lightning bolts as the then only non goblin cards in the deck. This would give 8 bolts for removal and finishing off opponents that the gobbo horde of creatures just fell short of doing the 20 damage themselves.
This might be a crazy idea but would it be possible to make a Goblin mixture between Zoo and Merfolk? The list would be RWB with 4 Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Lightning Helix and Path to Exile. The remainder of the deck would be filled with goblins lords (Chieftain, Goblin King, Mad Auntie and maybe even Wardriver) and other efficient fast goblins (Legion Loyalist, Goblin Piledriver). This would of course mean that we would have to let go of Ringleader. Maybe we would still be able to run Matrons combined with a small amount of toolbox goblins.
In short: The reach, removal and speed from Zoo combined with the muscle from Merfolks.
Honestly, the idea is littered with all kinds of wrong. You can't really compete speed-wise with Merfolk's lord package. Whereas most of their lords cost two mana, almost all of our lords cost three. Merfolk could afford to run that kind of setup (lots of lords with no "card advantage" engine whatsoever) because it had access to free counters, or at least very effectively costed ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatara
If you take out Goblin Ringleader and the rest of the tutor package you have practically no incentive to play Goblins over Merfolk, or any other aggro deck for that matter. The pay-off of such a thing is as close to non-existent as you can get since this wouldn't improve any particular matchup but would just make the deck worse in general.