[DTB] Vial Goblins

Anarchy costs 4. Serenity costs 2. They are both narrower and wider in different ways: anarchy can't even hit artifacts. Personally I'd rather have 2cc than 4cc, it makes a big freaking difference especially in legacy. And please do not use the cliche "doesn't get hit by counterbalance" argument, remember when that was rampant on the source? There was even a parody where somebody posted [SCD] Craw Wurm and one of the benefits was "High CC avoids counterbalance."

It's not valid. We don't bring in serenity for most counterbalance decks, and if we do, those decks usually board out counterbalance against goblins.

The metagame is changing and board-based control could reemerge. To judge so quickly is a mistake. Deck construction is much more complex than simply X and Y. It is not black and white for any metagame any of the 75.

I hate to say this but you really don't know what you're talking about.

Yes yes anarchy is pretty popular right now and has its benefits. But we are looking at this WAY too simply.

But we DO bring in Anarchy against the most CB decks. I don't want to hit CB (it is as you said not the biggest threat for Goblins). I want Anarchy to hit Progenitus, Rhox War Monk, Quasali Pridemage, Knight of the Reliquary Moat, Humility, Thopter Foundry in those decks.
I agree with you that I don't know much about W splash. I agree with you that Anarchy isnt completly out of CB's range. What I tried to say ( and I must correct myself here) is: It is more likely that CB hits Serenity than Anarchy.
I don't agree with you that most decks board out CB against Goblins (although it's not killer).
Another disadvantage of Serenity is, that it destroys Vials too.
Spell Snare hits Serenity and not Anarchy.
Serenity can be destroyed before your upkeep.
And imo the cc dont matter here because those decks we use Serenity or Anarchy against are slow, so you have enough time to gather 4 or even 5 lands.

Things that Anarchy destroys which Serenity doesn't:
- Baneslayer Angel/Exalted Angel/Magus of the Moat
- Rhox War Monk/Quasali Pridemage
- Knight of the Reliquary
- Mother of Runes/Serra Avenger


Sure, Anarchy doesnt destroy artifact, but I don't consider artifacts a bigger problem than those guys named above.

I hope you feel fine with the way I'm looking at it now that I corrected myself ;-)

FoulQ: Wouldn't Serenity screw with our vials?! How is that working out for you? I can only see Serenity played against Stax though. That's pretty narrow.

GoboLord: Bolt is better than nameless inversion in the mirror match. Sorry I always consider the mirror, that's why I had to compare their casting cost without Warchief. Your build will have no solutions to a turn 1 lackey where as mine will have my lightning bolts.. I agree that outside of this, nameless inversion and lightning bolts have the same type of functionality and that they can remove the creatures of the same size. What I am saying is although nameless inversion raises consistancy, you trade that for speed. Speed is what I'm looking for. Lightning Bolt is the fastest and the most versatile.. Plow is the strongest. Nameless inversion is a goblin but ultimately does not give enough power to the deck like Lightning Bolt or Swords to Plowshare does.

Why are we talking about bringing in Anarchy to fight CBT? CBT isn't even a bad match up. They have a hard time against US. The only time anarchy would even be considered to come in is if they play progenitus but even then we could race them with our piledrivers..

PS: I mentioned Tarfire because it's a bad goblin card, not because I'm comparing it's ability to remove creatures. Also I see the advantages you see from Nameless Inversion. You can get it from Matron and Ringleader. That's why I keep mentioning it's a goblin card. The warchief thing though, that's not really an advantage as Lightning Bolt already has a cmc of 1... I just wanted to clarify that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jin

FoulQ: Wouldn't Serenity screw with our vials?! How is that working out for you? I can only see Serenity played against Stax though. That's pretty narrow.

GoboLord: Bolt is better than nameless inversion in the mirror match. Sorry I always consider the mirror, that's why I had to compare their casting cost without Warchief. Your build will have no solutions to a turn 1 lackey where as mine will have my lightning bolts.. I agree that outside of this, nameless inversion and lightning bolts have the same type of functionality and that they can remove the creatures of the same size. What I am saying is although nameless inversion raises consistancy, you trade that for speed. Speed is what I'm looking for. Lightning Bolt is the fastest and the most versatile.. Plow is the strongest. Nameless inversion is a goblin but ultimately does not give enough power to the deck like Lightning Bolt or Swords to Plowshare does.

Why are we talking about bringing in Anarchy to fight CBT? CBT isn't even a bad match up. They have a hard time against US. The only time anarchy would even be considered to come in is if they play progenitus but even then we could race them with our piledrivers..

PS: I mentioned Tarfire because it's a bad goblin card, not because I'm comparing it's ability to remove creatures. Also I see the advantages you see from Nameless Inversion. You can get it from Matron and Ringleader. That's why I keep mentioning it's a goblin card. The warchief thing though, that's not really an advantage as Lightning Bolt already has a cmc of 1... I just wanted to clarify that.

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I see. We should take time to broaden our explanations a bit so that we dont misunderstand each other. That would make statements like "Inversion is horrible" and "Anarchy is out of CB's range" easier to understand

@ topic:
We (or at least I am) not talking about Anarchy fighting Counterbalance. I bring in Anarchy to fight the threats I just named. Most of those decks I bring in Anarchy against play CB. That's why I mentioned that Anarachy is not likely to be countered by CB. Examples are: NO Bant, Thopther Combo and some U/W-control subtypes.
I agree with you that they have (or should have) hard times against us, but Anarchy is (much like Perish) a boardsweeper for some decks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

I see. We should take time to broaden our explanations a bit so that we dont misunderstand each other. That would make statements like "Inversion is horrible" and "Anarchy is out of CB's range" easier to understand

@ topic:
We (or at least I am) not talking about Anarchy fighting Counterbalance. I bring in Anarchy to fight the threats I just named. Most of those decks I bring in Anarchy against play CB. That's why I mentioned that Anarachy is not likely to be countered by CB. Examples are: NO Bant, Thopther Combo and some U/W-control subtypes.
I agree with you that they have (or should have) hard times against us, but Anarchy is (much like Perish) a boardsweeper for some decks.

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Yeah, but being red, our goal isn't to sweep the board. All we want to do is dish the damage because that's what red does best. The only reason why anarchy will come in is because soemthing is stopping us from doing damage... ie. Absolute Law, Moat, Worship?... In any other case, we really don't need to bring it in..

Although if your ONLY arguing that 4cmc usually goes over CBT lock, then that's just stating the obvious. But thanks for that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jin

Yeah, but being red, our goal isn't to sweep the board. All we want to do is dish the damage because that's what red does best. The only reason why anarchy will come in is because soemthing is stopping us from doing damage... ie. Absolute Law, Moat, Worship?... In any other case, we really don't need to bring it in..

Although if your ONLY arguing that 4cmc usually goes over CBT lock, then that's just stating the obvious. But thanks for that.

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I really hate to post things twice because it only makes the thread bigger and more boring to read:

I'm not ONLY saying that Anarchy goes over CBT lock. As I said before, I play it to hit those guys as well:

- Baneslayer Angel/Exalted Angel/Magus of the Moat
- Rhox War Monk/Quasali Pridemage
- Knight of the Reliquary
- Mother of Runes/Serra Avenger

They (much like Moat and Humility) stop us from doing damage.
Sweeping the board helps us doing damage.
That's why we play Perish. Thats why we play Anarchy. That's why we play (mass)removal in general.

I dont know if it obvious enough now, but what I said was (and the stress is on the 2 things standing apart from each other):

#1
"Anarchy seems better than Serenity, because it hits (along with nasty Entchantments like Humility and Moat) creatures like [fill in what I wrote above]. That make Anarchy more flexible to me.

#2
Anarchy is less likely to be affected by CBT than Serenity cause of it's mana costs. This fact matters because some decks that I would bring in Anarchy or Serenity against, have CBT lock. I dont want to fight CBT with those cards.

Anyways, lets leave this discussion at this point until FoulQ finished his testing. Maybe he can tell us something about Serenity's pros and cons.

I'm going to have to chime in with Gobo strongly supporting Anarchy as a useful tool for goblins. The core engine of goblins - lackey/warchiefs/ringleaders/matrons/SCG - works extremely well at doing what it does, even if you have some slightly awkward non-goblin cards like anarchy around. What a card like anarchy, perish etc does is provide a lot more depth in situations where "doing what goblins does" just isn't cutting it, of which there are many in today's meta, which is why we're no longer the top deck.

If you play online you'll see a lot of D&T, and Anarchy is very useful there, and is one of the only ways of not being blown out by sofi besides artifact removal.

The one thing Anarchy won't do for you is come in against E-plagues. There's still a lot of them out there, and two of them are still usually game, unless you main deck a boartusk.

How would Patriarch's Bidding do against say zoo? Sorry don't know card tags.

Put one MB, and 2 in the SB. Sure it's a bit pricey, but zoo doesn't use any land destruction anyway. Just use every goblin humanly possible, even stingscourger and gempalm as chump blockers while you build up your mana base. Then drop patriarch's Bidding. They name what, Goyf or cats and get 3-4 back? You name goblin and get half the city back and alpha strike in for the win.

3BB
Each player chooses a creature type. Each player returns all creature cards of a type chosen this way from his or her graveyard to the battlefield.

All you do is put these tags, [cards ] and [/cards ], around the card name, except without the spaces.

So it would be like, [cards ] Patriarch's Bidding [/cards ], except without the spaces. Patriarch's Bidding.

Alright I was doing card and it was failing, didn't think to try plural.


// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [ROE] Mountain (1)
3 [R] Badlands
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [MPR] Wasteland
1 [P3] Swamp (1)
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [U] Taiga
1 [RAV] Forest (2)

// Creatures
2 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
3 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
1 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
1 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
1 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [MOR] Warren Weirding
1 [ON] Patriarch's Bidding

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [6E] Perish
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 2 [ON] Patriarch's Bidding


theres the list I'm thinking of running if I go with Patriarch's Bidding.

@ Gobolord

I totally agree with your #1 point regarding Anarchy. But personally,I prefer Anarchy more because it is on colour as well.

Patriarch's Bidding seems good in theory, but I'm skeptical that it will work.

At 5cc, it's going to be very rare that you can actually cast it before it's irrelevant. Lackey doesn't cheat it into play and Warchief doesn't reduce the cost. It cannot be Vial'd into play, either.

Against Zoo, you will likely be dead before you hit 5 land drops. If you are capable of getting to 5 land drops against Zoo and you are still alive, Ringleader will more than likely put you far enough ahead to out-resource and out-advantage them.

Against control, I can see it being good the first time as a surprise factor, but after that, they should be able to keep you from resolving a 5cc bomb.

I've never playtested it though, that's just me theorizing it. If you've playtested it and had good results, I can admit I'm wrong. If anything, I'd cut the 1 maindeck Bidding, and maybe put it in the sideboard (or not if your sideboard is super tight).

Bidding will be game winning in the late game and completely dead before that. One way to avoid its drawback is to play it sideboard with 3-4 burning wish in the main.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neuad

How would Patriarch's Bidding do against say zoo? Sorry don't know card tags.

Put one MB, and 2 in the SB. Sure it's a bit pricey, but zoo doesn't use any land destruction anyway. Just use every goblin humanly possible, even stingscourger and gempalm as chump blockers while you build up your mana base. Then drop patriarch's Bidding. They name what, Goyf or cats and get 3-4 back? You name goblin and get half the city back and alpha strike in for the win.

3BB
Each player chooses a creature type. Each player returns all creature cards of a type chosen this way from his or her graveyard to the battlefield.

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It wouldn't do well at all, if you make it deep enough into the game to play bidding then you are probably winning or close to it already. Most of the time its gonna sit in your hand while they beat your face in the early turns.

I'm actually testing it in the SB for the control matchup (landstill and the like), where it ends the game in a single shot if not countered, and it's surely better than sorcery speed creature removal.

@ Anarchy

I'm not saying Anarchy is bad. I'm just saying you guys seem to rely on it too much against the blue match up which I find to be in our favour. I side in anarchy against Quinn, Enchantress, Landstill all of the time...

But if you are comparing Serenity versus Anarchy, I'm already on the side of Anarchy since Serenity hits my vial and I don't like that..

@ Patriarch Bidding

I think Mogg War Marshal is enough against zoo. If you play this, they can name cats and bring in the nacatl/lynx/pridemage all back.. which is quite annoying..

I am building Rb gobbos with a taiga for k grips in the sb. Should i be running rishadan ports? It seems like a lot of Rb and Rbg goblin decks aren't running any anymore. Is there a reason for this?

Test living death instead. Block early and living death later. It's Bidding that clears their board, and opens the potential for an alpha strike. Any stingscourgers you decided not to pay for earlier can also bounce whatever threats they DO get back.

Bidding < Living Death in my opinion.

I'd like to clarify that I'm not advocating the use of either card in goblins, but I just want to discuss the advantages of each.

Can I get some feedback on sideboard options? Specifically, does anyone else play Leyline of the Void and and Leyline of Sanctity?

I think Leyline of the Void is great, because it's a card I've always wanted to mull into in dredge/lands/reanimator/ and makes them have to have an answer to it. It also forces thopterfoundry/sword, survival, and new horizons to play around it. It can't be countered when you start the game with it in play, and once it's in play it cannot be Stifled. That's a big plus over Crypt and Relic.


Leyine of Sanctity
I know some people are against using this SB as it would be "splashing white", but I don't think it really matters since you intend on mulling into it anyway against Belcher/ANT/Combo. It's going to be more effective and faster than discard or counter (which you would also have to mull to anyway), your opponent can't make you discard it (a la Mindbreak Trap) and it's sooo much faster than Pyrostatic Pillar or Thorn of Amethyst, but less susceptible to counter/discard. If you draw dead into it late-game it doesn't matter that much because, well, are any other anti-combo options worth playing once you've gotten past turn 2?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TossUsToLions

I am building Rb gobbos with a taiga for k grips in the sb. Should i be running rishadan ports? It seems like a lot of Rb and Rbg goblin decks aren't running any anymore. Is there a reason for this?

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2 Taiga's for KG has worked awesomely for me in the past. Also, I to be tricky I avoid playing them game one. It surprises plenty of people when you have removal for that [CARD]Propaganda[CARD] or [CARD]Moat[CARD] they sided in game 2.