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Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
H
I see issues and I want to discuss what they mean. I see an attitude of "just ban the new thing and we'll go back top the good old days" attitude about too much now. A Luddite position doesn't impress me, nor does a conservative one for the sake of preserving some frozen-in-time meta simply because it's the one you are used to and/or like.
Magic should be about some kind of change, regardless of if it's slow (Eternal formats) or fast (Standard).
The Attitüde of banning the new offensive cards is the same flawed logic which appeared with Vengevine. What needs to be done is negating the Auto-pilot option by overpowering stuff like Delver, TNN and TC like Tarmogoyf and Standstill got overpowered by later printings (in other colors) and preventing the printing of retarded brainfarts like Cruise without giving other colors equally powerful cards. Goddamn, it would have made totally sense (even flavorwise) to print a Delve Harmonize or Delve Suns Zenith, but not being able to imagine that BLUE cantrips and Fetches fuel BLUE raw carddraw with Delve was plain stupid.
WotC keeps making mistakes, but they need to start making those in other colors. Improve the colors instead of cutting one down is the most elegant solution which I keep supporting especially after I've witnessed the repeating pattern of discussion several times over my years on this platform.
People take offense on overrepresented archetypes too quickly and atm you can witness that players start to capitalize from the very linear and aggressive UR trend by playing storm which welcomes the cutting of Spell Pierces, Wastelands and stifles while not caring much for turn 4 Cruises because of being faster. This fact alone shows that the metagame is less stagnant than some users try to Paint it. We can point to the impact of Delver, Miracles, Batterskull, Gitaxian Probe, DRS, Decay, GSZ, Thalia and all those cards which had such a significant impact to the metagame that each of those altered the face of the format.
Picking on cards which last in decks for years like Brainstorm, Vial, Chalice or FoW is shutting your eyes from the change which happens around these cards. Chalice decks evolved from exclusive Sol Land + Metalworker decks to now ranging from the classic aggro MUD to Forgemaster MUD to Loam to 12-Post to Meerfolk. I see a whole lot of layers added to cards, which completely Fall under the table if people try to raise the Sentiment of "years ago everything was better and more diverse!"
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
Lemnear
The Attitüde of banning the new offensive cards is the same flawed logic which appeared with Vengevine. What needs to be done is negating the Auto-pilot option by overpowering stuff like Delver, TNN and TC like Tarmogoyf and Standstill got overpowered by later printings (in other colors) and preventing the printing of retarded brainfarts like Cruise without giving other colors equally powerful cards. Goddamn, it would have made totally sense (even flavorwise) to print a Delve Harmonize or Delve Suns Zenith, but not being able to imagine that BLUE cantrips and Fetches fuel BLUE raw carddraw with Delve was plain stupid.
WotC keeps making mistakes, but they need to start making those in other colors. Improve the colors instead of cutting one down is the most elegant solution which I keep supporting especially after I've witnessed the repeating pattern of discussion several times over my years on this platform.
Here's the thing though: Wizards doesn't really see these as mistakes. With the exception of TNN, none of those cards was made with anything other than Standard in mind, almost certainly. The weight of good Blue cards is so great though that they would have to either imbalance Standard by a wide margin against Blue or print some really strong non-Blue cards in Commander and other non-Standard sets. Now, in fairly recent times, they've actually succeeded in making Standard pretty balanced color-wise, but I can't see them just throwing Blue under a bus for 5 years or so. The commander sets on the other hand, well, I think they have just wanted to move product and hey, Blue sells. Even so, I don't think Wizards regards any of those as actual mistakes. They just have undue influence because of cards already present. Which is exactly my point, that Blue will continue to get cards and they will have disproportionate influence because the framework is already there to break them.
I have zero faith in Wizards printing real, strong, non-Blue cards for Legacy. I just don't. It would be amazing if they did, but I simply don't know they are capable of anything except a throwing a few darts and getting lucky. They could if they really wanted to, but the really don't want to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
People take offense on overrepresented archetypes too quickly and atm you can witness that players start to capitalize from the very linear and aggressive UR trend by playing storm which welcomes the cutting of Spell Pierces, Wastelands and stifles while not caring much for turn 4 Cruises because of being faster. This fact alone shows that the metagame is less stagnant than some users try to Paint it. We can point to the impact of Delver, Miracles, Batterskull, Gitaxian Probe, DRS, Decay, GSZ, Thalia and all those cards which had such a significant impact to the metagame that each of those altered the face of the format.
Picking on cards which last in decks for years like Brainstorm, Vial, Chalice or FoW is shutting your eyes from the change which happens around these cards. Chalice decks evolved from exclusive Sol Land + Metalworker decks to now ranging from the classic aggro MUD to Forgemaster MUD to Loam to 12-Post to Meerfolk. I see a whole lot of layers added to cards, which completely Fall under the table if people try to raise the Sentiment of "years ago everything was better and more diverse!"
But just like it made little sense to look at Vengevine as the problem with Survival, how much sense does it make to look at Treasure Cruise as the problem? Was Vengevine a mistake? In that light was Cruise a mistake then? I don't know.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
I would be shocked also if Wizards printed strong effective non Blue cards for Leg... What, Abrupt Decay? Oh...
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
H
All that has happened in the meta is that these Delve cards have made the most consistent preforming super-archetype, one based off cantrips, just even more clearly the best preforming super-archetype.
The fact of the matter is that all these cantrips are going to continue to make every possibly good new Blue card even better. This will stagnate the format, since so many people are simply sold on the idea that Brainstorm and Ponder are somehow sacred to Legacy for whatever random reason they have decided upon, and now new Blue cards are just "too good." In that case, shouldn't Vengevine have been banned rather than Survival? Simply banning the new Blue kid on the block every time seems hair-brained to me, honestly.
Where do we go from here?
I think that Treasure Cruise has actually hidden how good Monastary Swiftspear and Dig Through Time are relative to the pre-Khans metagame. They definitely aren't bad cards, and Swiftspear is probably the powerful closer that I've always felt has kept UR Delver a step behind the other Delver decks in terms of quality, even without Cruise.
I absolutely acknowledge that the Brainstorm/Ponder-led "cantrip cartel" shuts less consistent strategies out of the meta, and I think that this is an acceptable trade-off because to me, losing to inconsistency is like losing to Turn 1 Workshop --> Trinisphere on the draw. You didn't get outplayed, or even really out-brokened. You just didn't get to play Magic at all. I'm of the general view that more consistency is a good thing, and that decks like Lejay's Sylvan Plug are a great thing for the format because it, like Tezzerator (which I realize is blue, but it doesn't play cantrips), tries to achieve the important goal of making Chalice decks more consistent, and does it fairly well.
I playtested a lot over the holidays (I had a bunch of vacation days stockpiled at the end of the year) and the thing that really shook me was just how good the Cruise shell is, even relative to the cantrip cartel pre-Cruise or the cartel with Dig Through Time. While my testing did reveal some problems with how some decks seem to be adapting (not nearly enough Jund players appear to have gone to 4 MD Red Blasts with more in the board), Cruise has really forced the format into such a high velocity state that doesn't compare at all to the pre-Khans format and decks that aren't playing lots of one and zero-mana spells are at a severe disadvantage. This puts even more pressure on decks to be packed with powerful redundant elements and/or cantrip into them to keep feeding their graveyards for Cruises, or be absolutely buried in card advantage.
More than one person has suggested that Brainstorm is more powerful than Treasure Cruise in the past few pages. I disagree, and think that this arises from confusion of power with utility. While the power level of many Legacy staples (LED, Stoneforge Mystic, Tarmogoyf, Tendrils, Show and Tell, Entreat the Angels) is very high, many of the format's other key spells actually have fairly small effects on their own, and this set includes the cantrip cartel. While Brainstorm and Ponder are very useful in enabling you to find your powerful cards reliably, all they do is let you trade one mana and a card for one card from your deck and (usually) information about upcoming draws. Brainstorm in particular really needs other cards (shuffle effects) to do something powerful, and even then the power of the Brainstorm/shuffle interaction is limited to the difference between the power of the cards you draw and the cards you put back. Brainstorm has added utility in hiding things from discard and being an instant-speed way to dig for a card you need, and these both contribute to its power level, but even taking those things into account, it's not like it's giving you +2 on raw card advantage the way Cruise is. The difference between Cruise and equally powerful draw three effects is that it has a cost-reduction mechanism (Delve) that requires you to fill your deck with cheap spells rather than a clunkier build-around mechanism like Cascade that forces you out of things like cheap countermagic.
In short - I think that change is good, I think that Dig and Swiftspear are great additions to the format that actually broaden the number and color of viable tier 1 decks. I initially thought that about Treasure Cruise too, but at this point I think it's likely too good. As for Survival, that's a topic for a different post.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
H
But just like it made little sense to look at Vengevine as the problem with Survival, how much sense does it make to look at Treasure Cruise as the problem? Was Vengevine a mistake? In that light was Cruise a mistake then? I don't know.
The question is: what removes the Problem? Did Brainstorm or Ponder ever break the format or did something unfair on itself? Not really if you ask me. Is drawing three cards for a mere blue mana and pushing opponents against the wall with pure cardadvantage more of a problem? I believe it is. If you remove Cruise, the Problem described is solved. Banning Brainstorm? Players move to Preordain and still cast Cruise turn 4 to crush their opponents with the advantage. Compare this to Survival, if you remove Vine, the next creature takes it's slot (or Retainers + Griselbrand), but of you remove Survival, the Problem is solved.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
Lemnear
The question is: what removes the Problem? Did Brainstorm or Ponder ever break the format or did something unfair on itself? Not really if you ask me. Is drawing three cards for a mere blue mana and pushing opponents against the wall with pure cardadvantage more of a problem? I believe it is. If you remove Cruise, the Problem described is solved. Banning Brainstorm? Players move to Preordain and still cast Cruise turn 4 to crush their opponents with the advantage. Compare this to Survival, if you remove Vine, the next creature takes it's slot (or Retainers + Griselbrand), but of you remove Survival, the Problem is solved.
Well that is a large part of why i have an issue with both options and am still trying to find a solution that addresses both sides.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
I would be shocked also if Wizards printed strong effective non Blue cards for Leg... What, Abrupt Decay? Oh...
Lo and behold the only deck that consistently top 8s with abrupt decay in 8+ round events is BUG delver and in storm and elf sideboards.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
H
Well that is a large part of why i have an issue with both options and am still trying to find a solution that addresses both sides.
Why is retainers -> legend any better than just reanimating it? Survival is still subject to being countered. It also suffers from being nailed by needle effects, decay and things that hose searching. All the graveyard hate applies in both cases. Why is survival any worse than getting griselderp or omnichimp dumped in via show and tell? I just fail to equate the 'brokenness' of survival with any of the dumb blue enabled shit that currently runs loose in this miserable format.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
I would be shocked also if Wizards printed strong effective non Blue cards for Leg... What, Abrupt Decay? Oh...
wow a 1 x 1 card that requires 2 color and and limited target...is BROKEN!!!!
I'm sure you will win when you topdeck it, and you are very happy if you have 2 in your starting hands.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
nedleeds
Why is retainers -> legend any better than just reanimating it? Survival is still subject to being countered. It also suffers from being nailed by needle effects, decay and things that hose searching. All the graveyard hate applies in both cases. Why is survival any worse than getting griselderp or omnichimp dumped in via show and tell? I just fail to equate the 'brokenness' of survival with any of the dumb blue enabled shit that currently runs loose in this miserable format.
I don't know, I am not 100% sure it's terrible for the format, but I'm not sure it's fine either. I sure don't have the time to test all the possibilities right now...
I am really talking about the ban Cruise/ban Brainstorm dichotomy though. I think there is some merit to both sides, but I am unconvinced of a "right answer."
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
There probably isn't a right or wrong answer, only opinions. The only fact I've got from where I sit is watching Atlanta's once active legacy weeklies decline from 25-35 three years ago to not firing. With about 75% of the participants still owning or having access to legacy cards. One can only lose to the same tired brainstorm decks over and over before it's more exciting to watch paint dry.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
A bunch of bolts flying around:
-Doesn't increase consistency so the deck plays like decks that don't run it
-Can be countered by running Goyfs (pretty much)
-Can be countered by running Jitte
The fact that hugely popular cards counter the strategy of "Bolts" decks make your scenario unrealistic. The difference between that and people trying to turn the tables on Brainstorm is that even if you run 4 SotL and 2 Chains, they will likely cantrip twice before you can play your answer, which they can then answer with a 1-2 mana card that they found much easier with the card you're trying to counter.
In other words, the problem is that the counters they've printed for the card don't arrive on time; which means the best counter to it is to run it.
It's much like Psychics in Pokemon. The best way to deal with them is to run them (because you get resistance while getting the benefit of having hugely powerful nigh-unresistable dudes) and then stuff in targetted attacks against them. In the early generations, however, there were no resistance types that worked (because ghosts were also poison) and the premier Psychics were also the fastest guys in the game (barring ~3 pokemon.) Further, the few attacks that were strong against Psychics were less powerful than the Psychic moves themselves.
Because you can't counter Psychics with non-Psychics effectively you end up running them. (There is an argument for normals due to tankiness depending on generation.)
In response to this problem they added:
-Dark (2x damage, 100% resist) and Steel (50% resistance) to the types
-Added Bug, Dark, and Steel moves (over time) that were higher power
-Fixed Ghosts/Ghost moves
-Added Ghosts that weren't also weak to psychics
-Changed the basic rules of the game (Special became S. Def and S. Attack)
This doesn't mean that the meta game had a purely optimal team, as at least a couple of your team members were going to be countering the meta-game or be the strongest non-psychics you can muster (for whatever synergy.) The field was somewhat diverse, but you *always* had Alakazam in your team. It was just a thing you did (this is coming from someone who's more interested in the history of the game and not someone who's competitive in it.)
This isn't to say BS is quite the same, but it's an analog as to why it's run more and more (which the data shows) and it's something that wizards needs to find a non-blue answer for that doesn't take forever. Whether or not that is banning remains to be seen. It's either very powerful on it's own, or it finds the counters to it's counters. There needs to be a non-blue spell that Notion Theif's until end of turn, or a flash-SotL, or something that hoses it to the degree that it's a risk to run it while a boon to run the thing they printed.
Answers on permanents don't work if they can just be killed easily or hurt the deck against everything else; so they need something that hoses it on the stack or that doesn't die to every-removal-spell-ever-printed while being desirable. SotL seems great, but it flops hard against a third of the field because it's a hoser. If there were instead something at 1-mana, or that were a weaker hexproof creature, or did anything useful against D&T, Maverick, etc.. then it start being a lot more effective since a lot of it's conditionals would go away.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
The question is: what removes the Problem? Did Brainstorm or Ponder ever break the format or did something unfair on itself? Not really if you ask me. Is drawing three cards for a mere blue mana and pushing opponents against the wall with pure cardadvantage more of a problem? I believe it is. If you remove Cruise, the Problem described is solved. Banning Brainstorm? Players move to Preordain and still cast Cruise turn 4 to crush their opponents with the advantage. Compare this to Survival, if you remove Vine, the next creature takes it's slot (or Retainers + Griselbrand), but of you remove Survival, the Problem is solved.
I wonder how many decks would replace TC with DTT if TC was banned.
Brainstorm's dominance has been discussed to death for years now. It was a problem before, it is a problem now, and it's only becoming worse with every new blue-related card that's going into the blue shell in the future. Be it "Manifest is kinda nifty - better abuse it with Brainstorm!", Monastery Mentor producing an army of Mini-Swiftspears or whatever they have in store for us in the future. Blue has been steadily on the rise ever since Delver was printed and I can't see an end to this trend until something actually impactful is done.
I don't think the problem is going to be resolved until they either
a) ban multiple blue cards that enable this kind of bullshit or
b) they print powerful hate cards that can go into a vast number of maindecks that symmetrically hates on card drawing (think what DRS did as GY hate impactwise).
Although I doubt hate would do much, since the situation is similiar to "threats > answers". And they aren't going to print enough cards in non-blue colors that don't go into blue decks that could resolve their consistency issues.
To sum up the situation:
- the blue cantrip shell outperforms the rest of the field in terms of consistency
- the blue cantrip shell feeds all kinds of stupid shit, be it Miracles, Delve, UR Delver triggers, etc
- the only deck that can match the blue cantrip shell in terms of consistency is Elves, due to running two tutor engines and two card draw engines
- D&T is the closest thing we have to an anti-cantrip deck, and it's T1.5 at best (as witnessed due to its On/Off status in the DtB) due to its own consistency issues
- while other decks can win, too, chances are you're gimping yourself if you aren't running one of the decks mentioned above
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
WotC keeps making mistakes, but they need to start making those in other colors. Improve the colors instead of cutting one down is the most elegant solution which I keep supporting especially after I've witnessed the repeating pattern of discussion several times over my years on this platform.
Is there any reason why you so elegantly skipped the parts of my previous posts where I called for more non-blue CA and CQ tools? Or is it just because it doesn't fit into your picture of me as a Brainstorm-hater?
Btw, I like how both you and Teveshszat were so much concentrated on my supposed hatred of the card and the pro-ban calls, that you completley missed that nowhere in my 16-paragraph long post there was ANY SINGLE mention of The Instant That Shall Dwell Alone. Not. One. I guess reading before quoting is not your main characteristic.
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Why is retainers -> legend any better than just reanimating it?
I'd also love to know the answer. I think that the answer will be the "powerful plan B of tapping creatures sideways", but while this is truly powerful, namely with Vengevine in picture, it' hardly the most broken strategy in Legacy, especially considering how diluting the deck with situational cards and crappy cmc3 1/1s makes the whole plan B pretty unreliable, mainly if you wish to incorporate any protection against combo, be it Cabal Therapy or w/e the particular cards, which make the deck even more unpredictable.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
Barook
b) they print powerful hate cards that can go into a vast number of maindecks that symmetrically hates on card drawing (think what DRS did as GY hate impactwise).
I would prefer te see a carddraw-hatecard being printed, instead of the banhammer on brainstorm/TC.
This ain't a new card invention forum, but this would be a nice hate card:
LAND
tap: add a colorless mana to your manapool
tap, sacrifice: until end of turn, target player discards a card instead of drawing a card, for each card he draws.
It has a usage (colorless mana), negates brainstorm hard if sacced in response, but comes at a cost; costing you a landdrop.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
nedleeds
Lo and behold the only deck that consistently top 8s with abrupt decay in 8+ round events is BUG delver and in storm and elf sideboards.
Sean, if Decays cost weren't so restrictive (colors and cmc), wouldn't we sit here and talk about it as a "tool for blue decks"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nedleeds
Why is retainers -> legend any better than just reanimating it? Survival is still subject to being countered. It also suffers from being nailed by needle effects, decay and things that hose searching. All the graveyard hate applies in both cases. Why is survival any worse than getting griselderp or omnichimp dumped in via show and tell? I just fail to equate the 'brokenness' of survival with any of the dumb blue enabled shit that currently runs loose in this miserable format.
Entombs, Careful studies, Fatties, Reanimates and Exhumes take how many spots? About 20? S&T, SneakAttack, Emrakul and Griselbrand make 16. Survivals + Retainer + Griselbrand/Emrakul take up 6. Pretty easy to squeeze in certain decks, no? Opponent drops needle on Survival? Respond by fetching Reclamation Sage! Opponent has 'yard-hate? Stomp him by chaining creatures. Survival is pretty resistent and compact.
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Originally Posted by
Bed Decks Palyer
Is there any reason why you so elegantly skipped the parts of my previous posts where I called for more non-blue CA and CQ tools? Or is it just because it doesn't fit into your picture of me as a Brainstorm-hater?
Btw, I like how both you and Teveshszat were so much concentrated on my supposed hatred of the card and the pro-ban calls, that you completley missed that nowhere in my 16-paragraph long post there was ANY SINGLE mention of The Instant That Shall Dwell Alone. Not. One. I guess reading before quoting is not your main characteristic.
I clearly adressed the point a page back. Card selection/draw is blue territory and the color having the cream of the crop in this section is intended. Giving other colors matching CQ and CA tools is hilarious as calling for blue Creature- and artifact-removal.
I don't care for your essay-long post. I can remember your posts, rants and ban-calls throughout the last 20 Pages.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nedleeds
There probably isn't a right or wrong answer, only opinions. The only fact I've got from where I sit is watching Atlanta's once active legacy weeklies decline from 25-35 three years ago to not firing. With about 75% of the participants still owning or having access to legacy cards. One can only lose to the same tired brainstorm decks over and over before it's more exciting to watch paint dry.
Maybe the reason I'm less concerned is is that I've observed the opposite happen to our Cleveland weeklies. We're getting more 5-round events now than we were a year ago, and more people are buying in rather than playing what they have. Personally, I'd like to see several unbannings in the name of having more top decks, so I do think that cards like SotF would be safe. Similarly, I'd like to see Show and Tell gone, but there's no justification for that other than my distaste for the things its putting into play and the way in which it puts them into play. I also disagree that the meta is particularly stale, but again, people at my local events tend to switch decks week-to-week, and there are only a handful of people who play the same thing week in, week out, and in the three SCG Opens I played in this year, none resembled my local meta to any significant extent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nedleeds
Why is retainers -> legend any better than just reanimating it? Survival is still subject to being countered. It also suffers from being nailed by needle effects, decay and things that hose searching. All the graveyard hate applies in both cases. Why is survival any worse than getting griselderp or omnichimp dumped in via show and tell? I just fail to equate the 'brokenness' of survival with any of the dumb blue enabled shit that currently runs loose in this miserable format.
On this point I agree with you. Giving G(W)x an engine will mostly put it on an equal footing with other decks as far as consistency is concerned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
H
I don't know, I am not 100% sure it's terrible for the format, but I'm not sure it's fine either. I sure don't have the time to test all the possibilities right now...
I am really talking about the ban Cruise/ban Brainstorm dichotomy though. I think there is some merit to both sides, but I am unconvinced of a "right answer."
I get what you're saying with both sides having good points, because they do, but I honestly think that the strange mix of collateral damage and not enough change from a Brainstorm ban would be worse. We'd lose some number of combo decks and Miracles (or, less likely, Miracles would adpot Scroll Rack), while blue-based midrange and control decks would just become a little bit less consistent by putting Preordain into the Brainstorm slots. In contrast, a Cruise ban would hurt (but likely not kill) UR Delver, while switching Blade players back to UWb from UWr and reducing the number of MD Pyroblasts substantially and opening up the meta at least a bit. One of the reasons I think unbannings are so necessary is that it's possible for green based decks to thrive with Earthcraft and Survival unbanned as they provide the color with a lot of power and neither is easily splashable into an existing top deck, while giving different tier 2 decks the tools that might push them over the edge.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Bed Decks Player
Wrong. No matter what's the exact setting in which you tap Grey Ogres, it's still competitive. You're playing to win (and have fun, chat, drink wine, etc.) You're not a part of heroes' companion that explores a dungeon while the story-teller sends the hordes and waves against your blades (collaborative game), neither you're looking for the part 4999/5000 in a PVC bag so that you and your wife may finish the picture of Manhattan (collaborative.)
You donīt get the point do you? Playing competetive has nothing to do with the actual Game I play. It only has something to do with the mindset. Beeing competetive is not deck related. It is related to the mindset you have when approaching a game. Most of the competetive gamers like to win in the best way possible against other players who also try to find
the most effiecient way to win. If the best way is tapping grey Orges we do this if the best way is playing Delver we do this too. This is the difference to casual players
who stick to their deck even if it canīt win a tournement anymore. We also love consistency in the most cases and each card who decreases luck because we want to win through a display of skill not luck.
To sum it up you could say the competetive players draws his fun out of the competition and the well achieved victory while a casual is drawing fun out of the fact that they can play their loved deck.
So when we approach a game we look how we can create a deck and use the mechanics of the game to create the biggest advantage for us. Since Magic is a resource management game we want to maximize the usage of each resource. And here you argument becomes wrong. Tapping grey Ogre canīt be competetive because you have to play him before. But as a competitive player you donīt have him in your deck because he is highy unefficient so if you have him in your deck you diqualified yourself from beeing competetive.
Since tapping grey orgres is less efficient than sneaking emrakul into play both canīt be equaliy effiecient and therfore canīt be equaly competitive. Also if I play with friends I donīt behave like I would when I play for win and even test new things without even the slightest thought for a win.
Just to mention. Yes I know you play a game of 2 and it seems that you play against your friend but this is not the case. You play with him. You donīt let him feel every mistake or stop time for his turn etc. You just want to have fun or test a deck with him. Maybe you also will switch to a less competetive (less optimized deck) to give him a chance.
Another example is a fighting Game player who have a tournement chracter who he can play to perfection switching to an not so well kown character because he plays with a friend for fun.
Quote:
Quote Originally Posted by Teveshszat View Post
We never cried about the card. What we mentioned again and again is that the reasons why you want it gone is the wrong. We also agrued about you lack of metagame knowlegde and understanding but never talked about to keep the card just because we like it.
Sorry, but I don't have a smallest clue what you wrote about.
What I tried to say is. We never said we want to keep Bs because it is BS. We tried to explain that the reasons why some want it gone are the wrong and that it would not help. The argumentation was and is based on the metagame in legacy and the cards we have to our deopsal. Also we explained why this metagame is not really stale and that we have a deversity in it.
Also I donīt need a post from you saying that you mean brainstorm because you mentioned it indirectly. The reason is that your talk about the boring stack interactrion and the fact that brainstorm is a card who does help with this on a high level in addtion to your former posts about brainstorm and the blue shell in whole just indicates that you include him when talking about stackinteraction. So as you said you never mentioed him directly but still talked about the card.
For surival just think abot the following things. Blizzards current goal is to make creatures more powerful so they get a greater impact in the Game. This allready brought us things like TNN or Grinselbrand. Now you get a a card for 2 Mana which only costs 1 green and which you can incooperate into a blue shell. This card when resolved tutors you emrakul or Grinselbrand each round and also a lot of other hate cards. A good line of play would be Land into survial into show and tell emrakhul.
This has nothing to do with beeing unpedicatable as a deck. I has something to do with a problem you must solve or you lose and this counts for all decks which are not fast combo.
Btw Vengevine was not the thing which killed you it was the surival making 20 dmg in 1 turn avaiable.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ingo
I would prefer te see a carddraw-hatecard being printed, instead of the banhammer on brainstorm/TC.
Depends on the powerlevel of the card. The current hate cards aren't powerful enough to contain the blue cantrip shell, so new cards would need to be significantly more powerful to even have a chance to dent it. Which leads us to new problems:
Let's say they print a 1 mana hatebear with flash and some fancy stats/abilities aside from extra draw denial that makes it maindeckable without gimping yourself. You either draw it, while being at the mercy of your topdecks, and have high impact when you catch them, or you don't. It makes the nature of the games much more swingy, and I'm not exactly a fan of that. They would need multiple cards that share a similiar function to make the gameplan work consistently.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
Depends on the powerlevel of the card. The current hate cards aren't powerful enough to contain the blue cantrip shell, so new cards would need to be significantly more powerful to even have a chance to dent it. Which leads us to new problems:
Let's say they print a 1 mana hatebear with flash and some fancy stats/abilities aside from extra draw denial that makes it maindeckable without gimping yourself. You either draw it, while being at the mercy of your topdecks, and have high impact when you catch them, or you don't. It makes the nature of the games much more swingy, and I'm not exactly a fan of that. They would need multiple cards that share a similiar function to make the gameplan work consistently.
Wouldn't it be easier to just put a better Scroll Rack into a Commander set? I don't think that simply dropping the 1 to activate would be beyond the pale, and Rack + Shuffle is nearly as good as Brainstorm + shuffle. Any color can play swap and hide at instant speed, or manipulate their draws.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
Depends on the powerlevel of the card. The current hate cards aren't powerful enough to contain the blue cantrip shell, so new cards would need to be significantly more powerful to even have a chance to dent it. Which leads us to new problems:
Let's say they print a 1 mana hatebear with flash and some fancy stats/abilities aside from extra draw denial that makes it maindeckable without gimping yourself. You either draw it, while being at the mercy of your topdecks, and have high impact when you catch them, or you don't. It makes the nature of the games much more swingy, and I'm not exactly a fan of that. They would need multiple cards that share a similiar function to make the gameplan work consistently.
You never heared of powerlevel and cost-balance, do you?
Sidenote: how is such a card (a balanced Version) more acceptable to run in MBs than Pyroblasts, which fanned a shitstorm here?
Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
btm10
Wouldn't it be easier to just put a better Scroll Rack into a Commander set? I don't think that simply dropping the 1 to activate would be beyond the pale, and Rack + Shuffle is nearly as good as Brainstorm + shuffle. Any color can play swap and hide at instant speed, or manipulate their draws.
I heared Sensei's Divining Top is a card.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
You never heared of powerlevel and cost-balance, do you?
Sidenote: how is such a card (a balanced Version) more acceptable to run in MBs than Pyroblasts, which fanned a shitstorm here?
Edit:
I heared Sensei's Divining Top is a card.
A) He's saying that you can't print a balanced card that is mainable and hates on the cantrip shell and that, further,even if you could it would simply serve to make very swingy games.
B) Top doesn't get rid of garbage in your hand, nor is it instant speed, nor does it hide cards. It's no where near Brainstorm/Scroll Rack
The only real issue with Scroll Rack is that hand size matters and 2-mana often means a reasonably powerful spell in legacy; making it unrealistic without losing significant tempo in a lot scenarios.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tescrin
A) He's saying that you can't print a balanced card that is mainable and hates on the cantrip shell and that, further,even if you could it would simply serve to make very swingy games.
B) Top doesn't get rid of garbage in your hand, nor is it instant speed, nor does it hide cards. It's no where near Brainstorm/Scroll Rack
The only real issue with Scroll Rack is that hand size matters and 2-mana often means a reasonably powerful spell in legacy; making it unrealistic without losing significant tempo in a lot scenarios.
If you're going to use Scroll Rack you really need a way to get extra cards in hand to fuel it and then the question revolves around whether you really need to do anything else after you've gotten those extra cards anyway.
Land Tax + Scroll Rack was the classic combo and so far nobody has found a shell in which Land Tax is good enough to justify playing the basics required to fuel it.
If the blue shell gets nerfed then people will probably look at Land Tax as one of the options to gain card advantage again and then Scroll Rack becomes a real possibility.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
I don't care for your essay-long post. I can remember your posts, rants and ban-calls throughout the last 20 Pages.
Arguing from the postion of ignorance is an amazing stance, dood. I finally know why your posts make no sense. :laugh:
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bed Decks Palyer
Arguing from the postion of ignorance is an amazing stance, dood. I finally know why your posts make no sense. :laugh:
#INeverSaidThingsBeforeBecauseTheyAreNotInTheLatestPostMade
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FoolofaTook
Land Tax + Scroll Rack was the classic combo and so far nobody has found a shell in which Land Tax is good enough to justify playing the basics required to fuel it.
I'm mildly surprised there's no Loam deck built around it. Loam's card and Dredge both serve the SRack well; but I'd assume it has to do with Loam lists having high land counts and thus their selection from the grave is all they need. Might be fun to try though.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FoolofaTook
If you're going to use Scroll Rack you really need a way to get extra cards in hand to fuel it and then the question revolves around whether you really need to do anything else after you've gotten those extra cards anyway.
I don't think that this is necessarily true. Extra cards definitely help abuse Scroll Rack, but if you're using it as a sort of off-color Brainstorm (hand fixing, card hiding) they're not needed. Land Tax was valuable as much because it gave you a shuffle the next turn as it was for the lands, and Fetches fix the shuffle problem.
All that being said, Rack is probably too expensive foe most decks, especially aggro decks.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
You never heared of powerlevel and cost-balance, do you?
Well, well, well, what does this tell us about Brainstorm?
The current hate cards don't really cut it (due to sorcery speed and costing 2+ mana) and the required powerlevel to actually dent it would be deemed "too powerful" (and swingy). How exactly do you plan to balance Brainstorm then while it takes over the format more each year? You don't want to see it banned and you don't want maindeckable hate that is on par with its powerlevel.
As far as your Pyroblast question is concered, it's a sideboard card and the fact that it's maindeckable now (same with Choke) is a sign that that there's something wrong with the format. However, a dude is a dude and can go into the red zone, it's never dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
btm10
I don't think that this is necessarily true. Extra cards definitely help abuse Scroll Rack, but if you're using it as a sort of off-color Brainstorm (hand fixing, card hiding) they're not needed. Land Tax was valuable as much because it gave you a shuffle the next turn as it was for the lands, and Fetches fix the shuffle problem.
All that being said, Rack is probably too expensive foe most decks, especially aggro decks.
Even if they printed an improved Rack variant, what are the chances blue decks don't get the most out of it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
I see that as a hint that they're going to banhammer TC at least in some formats.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
As far as your Pyroblast question is concered, it's a sideboard card and the fact that it's maindeckable now (same with Choke) is a sign that that there's something wrong with the format. However, a dude is a dude and can go into the red zone, it's never dead.
How is this a sign that something is wrong with the format? You wanted a punishing, cheap hate card for Brainstorm, and you've got one. It's nothing but arbitrary that Pyroblast has to be a sideboard card. People have maindecked StP for years, despite it being dead against combo, and no one ever complained.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
The current hate cards don't really cut it (due to sorcery speed and costing 2+ mana) and the required powerlevel to actually dent it would be deemed "too powerful" (and swingy).
We've also seen WotC, when it decides to design a bit more creatively and intelligently, demonstrate that cool cards can rein in other cards/strategies without being some combination of hamfisted, overpowered, or swingy. Deathrite Shaman is a maindeckable card that's helped put a check on graveyard strategies, without being too narrow in application or utterly deciding a game when it lands or doesn't land. The same can be done for Brainstorm.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
The fact that in terms of ubiquity, people are comparing a generic creature destruction spell like STP to a color hoser like REB/PBlast is kind of telling.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wonderPreaux
You wanted a punishing, cheap hate card for Brainstorm, and you've got one.
Except a good chunk of Brainstorm decks run it themselves to fight off other blue decks - for some decks, it's one of the main reasons to splash red.
A good hate card for Brainstorm needs to be cheap, fast and symmetrical - without the symmetry, it's just going to feed blue decks even more. We had that case exactly once before when Wizards designed an anti-Brainstorm card that fulfilled the the first two requirements, but lacked the symmetry - and we all know how Mental Misstep ended up in a blue clusterfuck.
As for the StP argument, what's more likely to encounter nowadays - creatures in any form or blue spells? Looking at the MODO meta, there are ~16% decks that don't offer reasonable StP targets in any form (no creatures, Emrakul, etc.) - I do count stuff like Angel or Marit Lage tokens as viable targets where StP isn't dead. So running StP is still a more reasonable choice than Pyroblast which has somewhere between 25-30% dead decks. But hey, who cares, blue has Brainstorm and can simply shuffle away the dead Pyroblasts in matches were it isn't needed while other decks like Jund just have to eat the dead draws.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tescrin
I'm mildly surprised there's no Loam deck built around it. Loam's card and Dredge both serve the SRack well; but I'd assume it has to do with Loam lists having high land counts and thus their selection from the grave is all they need. Might be fun to try though.
Life from the Loam and Scroll Rack are both slow to develop. In combination they'd be good but they'd be anti-tempo until way out in the mid-game. Probably too far out to be competitive. LftL isn't even used much anymore because it has no real effect until turn 3 and often turn 4.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
Except a good chunk of Brainstorm decks run it themselves to fight off other blue decks - for some decks, it's one of the main reasons to splash red.
A good hate card for Brainstorm needs to be cheap, fast and symmetrical - without the symmetry, it's just going to feed blue decks even more. We had that case exactly once before when Wizards designed an anti-Brainstorm card that fulfilled the the first two requirements, but lacked the symmetry - and we all know how Mental Misstep ended up in a blue clusterfuck.
As for the StP argument, what's more likely to encounter nowadays - creatures in any form or blue spells? Looking at the MODO meta, there are ~16% decks that don't offer reasonable StP targets in any form (no creatures, Emrakul, etc.) - I do count stuff like Angel or Marit Lage tokens as viable targets where StP isn't dead. So running StP is still a more reasonable choice than Pyroblast which has somewhere between 25-30% dead decks. But hey, who cares, blue has Brainstorm and can simply shuffle away the dead Pyroblasts in matches were it isn't needed while other decks like Jund just have to eat the dead draws.
A decent amount of the reason that blue decks run Pyro/REB is also to target the Cruise,TNN, Delver cards, threats that blue has no business having as far as color identity goes. That's the main problem with blue, they have different sorts of threats they shouldn't have, so tempo/control decks, that are commonly blue, play the unit hate card that efficiently answers a number of threats.
re: stp, it's not a matter of likelihood relative to one another, brainstorm vs pyroblast. the 9%-14% difference doens't change the similar dynamics. stp is a cheap, fast, asymmetrical answer to a likely threat, so is pyroblast, why is one ok and not the other? Further, please try and avoid fallacious arguments of implying absolutes like the idea that brainstorm is omnipresent to remove dead cards.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Because one is a generic answer to most creatures of any color while the other only answers cards of a certain color. If main deck choke were a popular thing it would be a little more obvious, but when a color specific hoser is highly played, you know it's an issue
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Save Brainstorm, Save the format.
Why did I create another B&R thread? Because I'm afraid this suggestion will be lost in the discussions. I have been Brainstorming since Dream Halls and Time Spiral were Standard-legal. Brainstorm wasn't as good then as it is right now because of the lack of shuffle effects, there weren't any fetchlands and Brainstorm is basically the only filter spell available.
There has been much talk going on since 2011, during the Snapcaster Mage and Mental Misstep era, that blue decks are dominating the format. Mental Misstep got axed, but B&R discussions continued and Brainstorm became the subject of debates. Here's my take on the timeline and how the format gradually deteriorated over time into what we currently see in DTB section.
2007 - Ponder was printed
2009 - Zendikar fetch lands
2011 - Preordain got printed
2014 - Treasure Cruise printed
WotC admitted mistakes were made: Jace TMS (in standard), Vengevine, Necrotic Ooze, Mental Misstep caused imbalances and corrective actions were taken. Right now, Brainstorm is not the sole culprit. It's the newer cards that breaks it in a sense. We cannot just get rid of Brainstorm because the card puts the format in balance. Others have already stated that it is a pillar in legacy: What should "define" the Legacy format? by H.
Without Brainstorm, the format loses diversity as numerous decks will turn into a giant pile of random old/new-bordered cards. Legacy becomes less appealing overall and less interactive since Force of Will also needs this card in order to keep things in check.
Brainstorm > Preordain > Serum Visions is fine, win-win scenario. As I have argued, Ponder has a shuffle + draw effect which makes it stronger than Brainstorm on certain occasions. My proposal:
Ban Ponder and Treasure Cruise.
Edit:
So, the thread I created was deleted and the contents merged into this one. I was hoping to find out if the general public agrees with the proposed changes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bed Decks Palyer
There are five decks in DTB section... :rolleyes:
Before Treasure Cruise how many where they? How many are in the Established section and thrive because of Brainstorm?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
You don't execute innocent party's to save guilty ones.
Exactly, I'm with you. Read my post again regarding Ponder and Treasure Cruise.
I am not viewing Brainstorm as a sacred cow at this point, rather as the kill switch to many legacy archetypes.
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Re: Save Brainstorm, Save the format.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
death
Without Brainstorm, the format loses diversity...
There are five decks in DTB section... :rolleyes:
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
As a fan of Brainstorm (ie, wanting to keep it) I want to say your post is stupid.
It just makes zero level of sense to do what you are suggesting. If it comes to ahead that the card is really the problem, you don't give it a free pass, you fix the problem. Look at it this way, if I am constantly fighting with my brothers and causing issues in the home, it should not be my bothers that are asked to move out, it should be me as the cause of the problems.
You don't execute innocent party's to save guilty ones.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
Well, well, well, what does this tell us about Brainstorm?
The current hate cards don't really cut it (due to sorcery speed and costing 2+ mana) and the required powerlevel to actually dent it would be deemed "too powerful" (and swingy). How exactly do you plan to balance Brainstorm then while it takes over the format more each year? You don't want to see it banned and you don't want maindeckable hate that is on par with its powerlevel.
As far as your Pyroblast question is concered, it's a sideboard card and the fact that it's maindeckable now (same with Choke) is a sign that that there's something wrong with the format. However, a dude is a dude and can go into the red zone, it's never dead.
It does obviously tell nothing about Brainstorm. It just tells me that you are just as uncreative and powercreep loving as WotC. Why denial instead of a punisher machanic? 1R - Flash - 2/1 - when [name] enters the battlefield deal damage to target player equally to cards that player drew that turn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Megadeus
The fact that in terms of ubiquity, people are comparing a generic creature destruction spell like STP to a color hoser like REB/PBlast is kind of telling.
Because having "cardtype" as the defining factor is any more basic than "color" if you look at MTG on a fundamental level? Fuck the fact that Duress and Spell Pierces are maindeckable despite of not hitting creatures and no one's whinning about that. Fuck the fact that Pyroblast is permanent PLUS stack interaction. Fuck flexiblity as reason to MD cards. Because "creatures" is the big, acceptable exception among all cardtypes, right?
Funnily, you consider "creatures" the defining core of most Legacy decks so that MD Plows are acceptable. What if I consider "blue" the defining core of most Legacy decks so that MB Pyroblasts are acceptable?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
As for the StP argument, what's more likely to encounter nowadays - creatures in any form or blue spells? Looking at the MODO meta, there are ~16% decks that don't offer reasonable StP targets in any form (no creatures, Emrakul, etc.) - I do count stuff like Angel or Marit Lage tokens as viable targets where StP isn't dead. So running StP is still a more reasonable choice than Pyroblast which has somewhere between 25-30% dead decks. But hey, who cares, blue has Brainstorm and can simply shuffle away the dead Pyroblasts in matches were it isn't needed while other decks like Jund just have to eat the dead draws.
Yeah, go try undermine the fact that Jund with MD Blasts just won a big tournament because of all those "dead draws" it can avoid with cards like SDT, Sylvan Library or Mirri's Guile.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Megadeus
Because one is a generic answer to most creatures of any color while the other only answers cards of a certain color. If main deck choke were a popular thing it would be a little more obvious, but when a color specific hoser is highly played, you know it's an issue
How many times do this point needs to be adressed? About 4 times within the last 17 pages by me alone including this post? "color" and "cardtype" are both fundamental aspects of the games design, but you choose that 1 of 8 card types is any more relevant than 1 of 5 colors
Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bed Decks Palyer
There are five decks in DTB section... :rolleyes:
You and your excellent understanding of how the DTB section works :rolleyes:
