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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dissection
Keeping Jace isn't that unreasonable, it really depends on the 75. I'm playing a hyper velocity predict build with no Jaces at the moment and actually cut StP vs Elves for example, as crazy as that sounds.
EtA has very little reason to be in the deck though.
Here's something I've been wondering about. I play two Surgical Extraction in the SB over RiP as there are four Snaps in my build, the deck leans heavily on them. Last week at my LGS I extracted Decays with a CB in play G3 vs Storm, pretty much ending the game. Does anyone consider it reasonable to bring in Extraction vs Decks boarding into Decay for CB? I'm not talking about decks already packing decay MD, there I will side them out. I'm thinking specifically Elves where CB can be so devastating. I don't think so as it's going to require drawing, playing and surviving to get two into play, but would like hear others opinions.
EDIT: Thinking about it more this is waaay too narrow, the matchup is already good, no need to jeopardise it by bringing in cards that can be dead.
Nope, I think it can be reasonable, depending on how many (and how good cards) your board consists off.
Sometime you can snare (I guess you play that, due to velocity Predict list) an tutor and luckily take that. It's not unreasonable, at all, I think.
I think Jace depends if they are on Order or Chaos elves (NO or No NO Kappa) elves. Against Chaos elves, I would rather rip jace than have him post board; same with EtA.
What do you board versus Elves, since you can afford to board out StP? If they are on Teeg, which more and more elves players are, at least the two I play against locally, terminus is just not good enough. At least, terminus is pretty bad when you are staring down a teeg. You can often set up with EoT sword teeg and Drawstep terminus.
What's your current list?
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Quasim0ff
Nope, I think it can be reasonable, depending on how many (and how good cards) your board consists off.
Sometime you can snare (I guess you play that, due to velocity Predict list) an tutor and luckily take that. It's not unreasonable, at all, I think.
I think Jace depends if they are on Order or Chaos elves (NO or No NO Kappa) elves. Against Chaos elves, I would rather rip jace than have him post board; same with EtA.
What do you board versus Elves, since you can afford to board out StP? If they are on Teeg, which more and more elves players are, at least the two I play against locally, terminus is just not good enough. At least, terminus is pretty bad when you are staring down a teeg. You can often set up with EoT sword teeg and Drawstep terminus.
What's your current list?
I bring in Surgical vs Storm usually anyway, I was more talking about Elves and any other combo that are SBing in three of four decays for CB. I've convinced myself it's pretty foolish now, was just thinking out loud.
Good point about differentiating between Chaos and NO Elves. I've just played vs NO elves with this list. So far I've seen very, very few NO lists play Teeg, though I'll keep it in mind more. I didn't have a Wear//Tear MD until recently and played 3 Predict. I want the third Predict back but am not sure what to cut really, possibly a Spell Snare but it's really important for CotV these days.
I SB vs NO Elves as follows.
-4 Swords to Plowshares
-2 Spell Snare
+2 Izzet Staticaster
+2 Wear//Tear
+2 Flusterstorm
Against Chaos Elves I would keep at least a couple of StP in for Teeg, you're right on that. Maybe this is all incorrect, but my thinking was to Terminus the board asap, land a Mentor then Force/Counterspell anything fetching a Craterhoof while Mentor overpowers the board. That's how the games have played out so far.
Current list is below. It's not lost at my LGS so far, but results just from a LGS need to be taken with a grain of salt obviously.
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Monastery Mentor
4 Ponder
4 Terminus
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
2 Predict
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
1 Wear//Tear
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
1 Plains
SB:
2 Blood Moon
1 Wear//Tear
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Izzet Staticaster
1 Cavern of Souls
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dissection
Keeping Jace isn't that unreasonable, it really depends on the 75. I'm playing a hyper velocity predict build with no Jaces at the moment and actually cut StP vs Elves for example, as crazy as that sounds.
EtA has very little reason to be in the deck though.
I still don't understand how Jace can interact with the board. Bouncing an elf doesn't feel impactful at all. When you tap 4 Mana to play Jace, that seems like a good time for elf player to jam a Choke. Jace can serve only about 2 purposes: float via CB to stop a Natural Order, or Jace-storm to put Terminus back onto the library. At least EtA can make tokens to block, I rather draw a counter instead of Jace in this MU.
I wonder what's the point of anticipating whether it's chaos elves or regular elves. Unless you see a strange elf, there is no way of knowing if the elf player intends to hide his build.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
I still don't understand how Jace can interact with the board. Bouncing an elf doesn't feel impactful at all. When you tap 4 Mana to play Jace, that seems like a good time for elf player to jam a Choke. Jace can serve only about 2 purposes: float via CB to stop a Natural Order, or Jace-storm to put Terminus back onto the library. At least EtA can make tokens to block, I rather draw a counter instead of Jace in this MU.
I wonder what's the point of anticipating whether it's chaos elves or regular elves. Unless you see a strange elf, there is no way of knowing if the elf player intends to hide his build.
Jace is the follow up play post Terminus, just as Mentor is too for other builds. You're not going to jam Jace T4 every time either, if you have top/cb established you work towards finding another CB to be safe from one decay, set up the top of the deck then Jace can take over. It's not ideal, but if you are short of other win cons it's necessary. Better than EtA at least imo which is dead until later in the game. At that point it doesn't matter what you use to win.
Teeg is MD from Chaos Elves, so you're likely to see it G1. So you'll keep StP in.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Yea I definitely board wrong for the MU (I really should take out ETA and put in Mentors if only in a defensive role). I think it's more me just psyching myself out because this Elves player is a fucking great Elves player and I get away from the fundamentals.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutthroatCasual
Yea I definitely board wrong for the MU (I really should take out ETA and put in Mentors if only in a defensive role). I think it's more me just psyching myself out because this Elves player is a fucking great Elves player and I get away from the fundamentals.
Going by your lists a few pages back, this is what I'd be looking at for SBing against NO Elves.
This is +8 -7, I'm not quite sure if there is another cut from the MD, or if one of these SB cards shouldn't come in really. Moat could be the weakest of these.
+2 Wear//Tear - Null Rod, Needle, Choke and Library.
+2 Flusterstorm - NO and GSZ.
+2 Mentor - Swap for Jace.
+1 Containment Priest - Obvious.
+1 Moat - Seems great, but quiet slow. Tapping out leaves you open to Rec Sage unless you have FoW backup, and you've probably had to use it on a NO already by T4.
-1 Clique - Not bad in the matchup, but the cards you're bringing in are better.
-1 Pierce - Fluster is better. It may not catch their SB hate, but Wear//Tear covers them and Fluster is live after a big Glimpse turn or can catch a NO off Cradle sometimes.
-2 Jace - Mentor is a more efficient win con.
-2 Entreat - Too slow and clunky.
-1 CJ - See above.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
In my experience, and hearing from the Elves player, if I can get even just 2 Brainstorms out of Jace, I can really pull ahead since it can find me STPs as well as Terminuses.
I agree Moat is the weakest card to bring in, since they do have DRS which goes under it, and Ruric Thar which means I need exactly Karakas if I don't want my PTEs/Terminuses to kill me. I actually did resolve a Moat in G3 but he had DRS and after I landed Moat he played Ruric Thar and I was at 12, then I Terminused, took 6, and he bounced DRS with Symbiote but not before activating it once to put me to 4, then his turn he played DRS again + another Symbiote and I didn't have double STP.
The guy also said Flusterstorm doesn't work too effectively since he's not going to be chaining spells together via Glimpse (he sides all of them out) in post-board games, so if he's just casting NO or GSZ for his turn, he can make more than enough mana to pay for Flusters. Pierce is also pretty lousy in the MU for this reason, but I'd rather be able to hit an early Pithing Needle on Top (he did this G3 and it really, really hurt) or Sylvan Library, neither of which Flusterstorm hits.
Taking all that into account, would this board plan work:
+2 Wear/Tear
+2 Mentor
+1 Priest
+1maybe Moat (since if I'm planning on protecting this, then ETA or Jace will have to be my wincon)
-1 ETA
-1 Jace
-1 Clique
-1 CJ
-1 Ponder?
-1maybe Counterspell
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Let me tell you a secret most elves players discover eventually with regards to the miracle matchup: you can't win through the classical way. You simply just get smacked into the dirt from terminus which Is terrible for them. Hence why they board out ALL their order versus us. Also why they board out some number of Cradle. Their best card is, unsurprising, symbiote.
Chaos elves isnt a particularly favored matchup. They play teen they play karakas, they play cavern of souls and they are all grind and no combo kill.
I would never, ever, ever board out swords. One of their best cards against you is actually, how crazy as it might sound, dryad Arbor.
I only play 1 izzet SC however, which might make up for the 4th one. Against chaos and any decent elves pilot, fluster is actually pretty bad. They don't commit to anything and their gsz is likely going to find either part of their combo: symbiote or visionary. They are a grindy midrange deck consisting of decay, duress effects and small green dudes after board.
Sendt fra min LG-D802 med Tapatalk
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Quasim0ff
Let me tell you a secret most elves players discover eventually with regards to the miracle matchup: you can't win through the classical way. You simply just get smacked into the dirt from terminus which Is terrible for them. Hence why they board out ALL their order versus us. Also why they board out some number of Cradle. Their best card is, unsurprising, symbiote.
Chaos elves isnt a particularly favored matchup. They play teen they play karakas, they play cavern of souls and they are all grind and no combo kill.
I would never, ever, ever board out swords. One of their best cards against you is actually, how crazy as it might sound, dryad Arbor.
I only play 1 izzet SC however, which might make up for the 4th one. Against chaos and any decent elves pilot, fluster is actually pretty bad. They don't commit to anything and their gsz is likely going to find either part of their combo: symbiote or visionary. They are a grindy midrange deck consisting of decay, duress effects and small green dudes after board.
Sendt fra min LG-D802 med Tapatalk
Okay? Aside from basically reiterating what I said about Flusterstorm being bad in the MU and giving an example of how Symbiote is fucking annoying, how does this add to the discussion about board plans?
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutthroatCasual
In my experience, and hearing from the Elves player, if I can get even just 2 Brainstorms out of Jace, I can really pull ahead since it can find me STPs as well as Terminuses.
I agree Moat is the weakest card to bring in, since they do have DRS which goes under it, and Ruric Thar which means I need exactly Karakas if I don't want my PTEs/Terminuses to kill me. I actually did resolve a Moat in G3 but he had DRS and after I landed Moat he played Ruric Thar and I was at 12, then I Terminused, took 6, and he bounced DRS with Symbiote but not before activating it once to put me to 4, then his turn he played DRS again + another Symbiote and I didn't have double STP.
The guy also said Flusterstorm doesn't work too effectively since he's not going to be chaining spells together via Glimpse (he sides all of them out) in post-board games, so if he's just casting NO or GSZ for his turn, he can make more than enough mana to pay for Flusters. Pierce is also pretty lousy in the MU for this reason, but I'd rather be able to hit an early Pithing Needle on Top (he did this G3 and it really, really hurt) or Sylvan Library, neither of which Flusterstorm hits.
Taking all that into account, would this board plan work:
+2 Wear/Tear
+2 Mentor
+1 Priest
+1maybe Moat (since if I'm planning on protecting this, then ETA or Jace will have to be my wincon)
-1 ETA
-1 Jace
-1 Clique
-1 CJ
-1 Ponder?
-1maybe Counterspell
Imho, 1 Wear / Tear is enough for that MU. Every hatepiece they find / play makes them slower, which favors you. And seeing that you actually only want to kill Choke, one should be enough. Mentor I don't like as it is only stalling the board. As wincondition, EoT Entreat is far more effectiv. Moat is good. Yes they do have DRS and Reclamation Sage. But Moat will stall the board. So if it's in your sideboard, put it in. Priest is also ok I guess. Even better with Moat as they now have to find their Sage without GSZ.
So I'd board in 1 Wear / Tear, 1 Priest, 1 Moat and board out 1 land (2 if you're on 22), 1 CJ and 1 Clique. Counterspell you want to keep as it's a hardcounter for Choke.
While it's not that good a matchup anymore, I don't see why there's so much panic in here. Control their keyspells, then sweep the board with Terminus. Additional help from Staticaster (highly recommended for every sideboard btw) or Explosives / Pyroclasm makes the MU postboard pretty good. Just see that you don't get choked out in a bad spot ;)
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Your opponent sides out glimpses? That's a first for me though... That card is bonkers versus you, as it will likely draw you enough gas to keep going after a terminus. I've found that they don't try to win with glimpse in the same fashion as order elves tries to - it's just not to end up empty handed after a terminus.
I would personally keep in Judgement. Some times you need more than 2 removal spells for their needle, chokes and libraries.
How many of you have played against chaos elves? It's not even comparable to regular elves.
*Pyroclasm and explosives are actually better than terminus as what is killed stay dead [emoji14]
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Just checking in real quick, will add more detail later, but...
Dragonslayer_90 and I both spiked top 8 in the first GPT for Columbus that we had last night. Field was relatively small, but extremely competitive.
We both played 74/75 of the same cards, with him playing the sideboard I provided for him, but myself opting for a slightly different sideboard card, hedging in one direction over another.
We both ended up losing in the top 8 by getting mised in unfavorable matchups, he got boseiju'd by OmniTell and I got t2 killed with Force backup by infect game 1 and game 3 (I won game 2 with the help of the aforementioned sideboard card difference =P)
I'll be doing a more detailed write up of the list that we played later on today, still struggling in the morning to speak and think coherently =P (I just poured orange juice in my girlfriend and I's morning coffee, if that gives you any indication of how I'm doing =P)
Some quick notes: I did a ton of background research for what I expected at this event and made a snap metacall that resulted in our lists, with heavy help from Exallium, another Miracles source member, in a very key sideboard contribution. I strong believe that the lists that we played were the best decks in the event, bar none, and we got kinda mised in the top 8, which I'm willing to accept as still a resounding success.
I ended in the number 1 seed, undefeated, and Dragonslayer was second seed, with only a single draw in his case, otherwise also undefeated.
Alright, I'll stop teasing, here's the list!
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Predict
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Terminus
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
1 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
2 Entreat the Angels
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Wear // Tear
SB: 1 Council's Judgment
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Stoneforge Mystic
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 1 Izzet Staticaster (Dragonslayer had second surgical in this slot instead, which I think is actually more correct, but I didn't anticipate much in the way of lands at this field, and it proved to pay off significantly)
Will be happy to answer questions later on today, plus a more detailed report.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mort-
Imho, 1 Wear / Tear is enough for that MU. Every hatepiece they find / play makes them slower, which favors you. And seeing that you actually only want to kill Choke, one should be enough. Mentor I don't like as it is only stalling the board. As wincondition, EoT Entreat is far more effectiv. Moat is good. Yes they do have DRS and Reclamation Sage. But Moat will stall the board. So if it's in your sideboard, put it in. Priest is also ok I guess. Even better with Moat as they now have to find their Sage without GSZ.
So I'd board in 1 Wear / Tear, 1 Priest, 1 Moat and board out 1 land (2 if you're on 22), 1 CJ and 1 Clique. Counterspell you want to keep as it's a hardcounter for Choke.
While it's not that good a matchup anymore, I don't see why there's so much panic in here. Control their keyspells, then sweep the board with Terminus. Additional help from Staticaster (highly recommended for every sideboard btw) or Explosives / Pyroclasm makes the MU postboard pretty good. Just see that you don't get choked out in a bad spot ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Quasim0ff
Your opponent sides out glimpses? That's a first for me though... That card is bonkers versus you, as it will likely draw you enough gas to keep going after a terminus. I've found that they don't try to win with glimpse in the same fashion as order elves tries to - it's just not to end up empty handed after a terminus.
I would personally keep in Judgement. Some times you need more than 2 removal spells for their needle, chokes and libraries.
How many of you have played against chaos elves? It's not even comparable to regular elves.
*Pyroclasm and explosives are actually better than terminus as what is killed stay dead [emoji14]
Thanks for the insight, both of you. The next time I get a chance I'll try this plan out!
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutthroatCasual
In my experience, and hearing from the Elves player, if I can get even just 2 Brainstorms out of Jace, I can really pull ahead since it can find me STPs as well as Terminuses.
I agree Moat is the weakest card to bring in, since they do have DRS which goes under it, and Ruric Thar which means I need exactly Karakas if I don't want my PTEs/Terminuses to kill me. I actually did resolve a Moat in G3 but he had DRS and after I landed Moat he played Ruric Thar and I was at 12, then I Terminused, took 6, and he bounced DRS with Symbiote but not before activating it once to put me to 4, then his turn he played DRS again + another Symbiote and I didn't have double STP.
The guy also said Flusterstorm doesn't work too effectively since he's not going to be chaining spells together via Glimpse (he sides all of them out) in post-board games, so if he's just casting NO or GSZ for his turn, he can make more than enough mana to pay for Flusters. Pierce is also pretty lousy in the MU for this reason, but I'd rather be able to hit an early Pithing Needle on Top (he did this G3 and it really, really hurt) or Sylvan Library, neither of which Flusterstorm hits.
Taking all that into account, would this board plan work:
+2 Wear/Tear
+2 Mentor
+1 Priest
+1maybe Moat (since if I'm planning on protecting this, then ETA or Jace will have to be my wincon)
-1 ETA
-1 Jace
-1 Clique
-1 CJ
-1 Ponder?
-1maybe Counterspell
Fluster is still good to catch a GSZ or NO, both of which you don't want resolving. I much prefer it in the matchup over pierce as Elves often have access to two mana between Quirion Rangers with Dryad Arbor and Wirewood Symbiote with DRS, Birchlore, Heritage etc. It's just not reliable at all. They will build up the storm count for you, you can help it too. Whether it's worth boarding in, I've always found it effective personally. Maybe others have different results. It's also obviously very dependant on how many cards you have to bring in.
I wouldn't cut Counterspell or Ponder. CS is a generic answer to everything they're doing, and Ponder finds Terminus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Quasim0ff
Let me tell you a secret most elves players discover eventually with regards to the miracle matchup: you can't win through the classical way. You simply just get smacked into the dirt from terminus which Is terrible for them. Hence why they board out ALL their order versus us. Also why they board out some number of Cradle. Their best card is, unsurprising, symbiote.
Chaos elves isnt a particularly favored matchup. They play teen they play karakas, they play cavern of souls and they are all grind and no combo kill.
I would never, ever, ever board out swords. One of their best cards against you is actually, how crazy as it might sound, dryad Arbor.
I only play 1 izzet SC however, which might make up for the 4th one. Against chaos and any decent elves pilot, fluster is actually pretty bad. They don't commit to anything and their gsz is likely going to find either part of their combo: symbiote or visionary. They are a grindy midrange deck consisting of decay, duress effects and small green dudes after board.
I completely agree on your assessment of Wirewood and Arbor being their best cards in the traditional sense of the matchup. When your win condition is Jace, you have to StP the Dryad as Terminus doesn't answer it. But I'd argue differently when Mentor is the kill. Many of their cards become completely obsolete in the face of an army of monks. It gives the matchup a very different angle where you can put it away after just one Terminus.
On Fluster, yes it's not ideal vs Chaos, but I don't think it's necessarily bad vs a good or a bad Elves player when on NO. It seems to me that Elves pilots rarely expect it. It's not any kind of 'trump', but it's much needed early interaction for GSZ or NO.
Chaos Elves is indeed a different beast and I need to work out a SB table for that. I would leave in at least two StP over the pair of flusters.
Perhaps I was wrong to SB out swords, though there are two Staticasters coming in. What would be your suggestion from the list posted above? I've just found them inneficient in the past.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutthroatCasual
Okay? Aside from basically reiterating what I said about Flusterstorm being bad in the MU and giving an example of how Symbiote is fucking annoying, how does this add to the discussion about board plans?
Chill, not everything is directed at you. He made some good points and we're now talking about the matchup in general, not just with your SB.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mort-
Imho, 1 Wear / Tear is enough for that MU. Every hatepiece they find / play makes them slower, which favors you. And seeing that you actually only want to kill Choke, one should be enough. Mentor I don't like as it is only stalling the board. As wincondition, EoT Entreat is far more effectiv. Moat is good. Yes they do have DRS and Reclamation Sage. But Moat will stall the board. So if it's in your sideboard, put it in. Priest is also ok I guess. Even better with Moat as they now have to find their Sage without GSZ.
So I'd board in 1 Wear / Tear, 1 Priest, 1 Moat and board out 1 land (2 if you're on 22), 1 CJ and 1 Clique. Counterspell you want to keep as it's a hardcounter for Choke.
While it's not that good a matchup anymore, I don't see why there's so much panic in here. Control their keyspells, then sweep the board with Terminus. Additional help from Staticaster (highly recommended for every sideboard btw) or Explosives / Pyroclasm makes the MU postboard pretty good. Just see that you don't get choked out in a bad spot ;)
I don't think a single Wear//Tear is enough for the matchup. They're bring in multiple needles (usually two), a Null Rod, a Sylvan and most likely a couple of Chokes. All of these you want to kill, I don't understand your point about only wanting to hit Choke?
In my experience Mentor doesn't just stall the board, it overwhelms it and wins. Though this is really where the difference in builds becomes apparent. I've been on 19 lands, 3 Predict etc. There are triggers flying everywhere. I remember hearing from Julian somewhere (I think a podcast on Miracles?) say they way Elves win is small chunks of 3 damage at a time or so, Mentor completely invalidates that.
I'm still not sold on Moat. After board they're grinding you out, not setting up an alpha swing. It's just so slow and clunky, and they have ways around it as well as ways to kill it.
There's no 'panic', but seems like some differing opinions on the matchup so it's good to talk about it. I completely agree with Staticaster having a place in all SBs. If only to make SBing vs Storm SO much easier. You no longer need to leave in a couple of StP for Swarm/Bob, or Terminus for Empty. This beautiful pinger does it all!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Quasim0ff
Your opponent sides out glimpses? That's a first for me though... That card is bonkers versus you, as it will likely draw you enough gas to keep going after a terminus. I've found that they don't try to win with glimpse in the same fashion as order elves tries to - it's just not to end up empty handed after a terminus.
I would personally keep in Judgement. Some times you need more than 2 removal spells for their needle, chokes and libraries.
How many of you have played against chaos elves? It's not even comparable to regular elves.
*Pyroclasm and explosives are actually better than terminus as what is killed stay dead [emoji14]
I've just asked two friends of mine, both have been playing the little green men for a good few years how they SB vs Miracles and they both take out Glimpse too. Which surprises me as I thought you'd leave it in to build post Terminus too. But the reasoning is it just makes you overcommit into said Terminus, though NO isn't a huge lot better in the MU either. They then shave on Heritages and Nettles.
Judgment is too clunky, I'd have a second Wear//Tear over it for sure.
I've not played vs Chaos Elves, I believe you when you say it's a different beast and I assume much harder. I'll try and get some games in vs friends.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
@Minniehajj
Congratz, nice list! I really like it . I have been testing something very similar lately:)
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Hey guys a few questions about SB and how to play some matchups.
Context, I’ve played a ton of paper Legacy in the past and recently found out my old MTGO cards appreciated in value and was able to buy into the format again. Running Leagues mostly trying to get a read on the format. I’ve been running into what I assume everyone else is and I feel good against the various combo decks, but I have been struggling with the Eldrazi and Shardless Sultai match ups. I’ve tried a few different builds, including main deck Mentors, but I’m looking for SB slots to shore up those two matchups and general lines of play. I’ve run through the thread and I’m looking for input on tech like From the Ashes, Moat/Humility, Back to Basics, and Meekstone/Ensnaring Bridge.
Lately I’ve felt like I needed more ways to interact early so I dropped a Jace. 2 Mentors, and a Clique for the Spell Pierce’s and Spell Snares. Below is my current list any feedback would be awesome.
4 x Swords
1 x Council’s Judgement
4 x Terminus
2 x Entreat
4 x Brainstorm
2 x Ponder
2 x Spell Pierce
2 x Spell Snare
3 x Snapcaster Mage
4 x Counterbalance
2 x Jace TMS
4 x Force of Will
4 x Top
2 x Arid Mesa
4 x Flooded Strand
4 x Island
3 x Plains
3 x Scalding Tarn
3 x Tundra
3 x Volcanic Island
SB
2 x Rest in Peace
3 x Flusterstorm
1 x Vendellion Clique
2 x Pyroblast
3 x Blood Moon
2 x Wear//Tear
1 x Supreme Verdict
1 x Moat
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Minniehajj
Just checking in real quick, will add more detail later, but...
Dragonslayer_90 and I both spiked top 8 in the first GPT for Columbus that we had last night. Field was relatively small, but extremely competitive.
.......
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Wear // Tear
SB: 1 Council's Judgment
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Stoneforge Mystic
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 1 Izzet Staticaster (Dragonslayer had second surgical in this slot instead, which I think is actually more correct, but I didn't anticipate much in the way of lands at this field, and it proved to pay off significantly)
Will be happy to answer questions later on today, plus a more detailed report.
First of all, congratulations. I look forward to reading your report.
You may cover this question when you go over your match ups, but why did you feel that a 2nd surgical is better than the staticaster?
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Misersoneof
First of all, congratulations. I look forward to reading your report.
You may cover this question when you go over your match ups, but why did you feel that a 2nd surgical is better than the staticaster?
Did the quick report here:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...945#post940945
Short answer to this, I think Lands will be highly represented, as most loam decks will be, to help fight this eldrazi menace, and I think that surgical is instrumental against any loam deck, especially without having access to blood moon.
Mackan is playing Supreme Verdict in this slot instead, and he also top 8'd and won 2 different events from this past weekend, so I'm sure that's also a great option in this slot
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
So... if Eldrazi and Infect are rampant in your LGS, would Reprisal be on anyone's radar? It can be flashbacked And it escapes Chalice on 1.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Against Infect, I don't like that it costs 2 mana. Once you use it once, they'll never pump higher than 4, and they can easily get 3 (Exalted + Pendelhaven).
Against Eldrazi, maybe as a 1-of? It does cost 2 mana. And since they go wide as well as medium-sized, this might not be fast enough to keep up, especially when you need 4 mana to flashback, at which point I'd rather just play a Supreme Verdict since nothing regenerates Eldrazi.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutthroatCasual
Against Infect, I don't like that it costs 2 mana. Once you use it once, they'll never pump higher than 4, and they can easily get 3 (Exalted + Pendelhaven).
Against Eldrazi, maybe as a 1-of? It does cost 2 mana. And since they go wide as well as medium-sized, this might not be fast enough to keep up, especially when you need 4 mana to flashback, at which point I'd rather just play a Supreme Verdict since nothing regenerates Eldrazi.
Allow me to clarify, if Infect player is chipping your with 1 or 2 poison counter per turn, he's making the correct play. I am referring the case when he wants to rush you, like Invigorate + Berserk, or become immense, then Reprisal would work. Reprisal would be a SB card at best, I'm Not saying you should replace StP.
The beauty of Reprisal Is the CMC 2. 4 Reality Smasher and 4 Thought-Knot, that's 8 targets guaranteed at the least. Verdict is a sorcery speed 4 CMC card that would just get removed by Thought-knot. You need to float Verdict and Terminus, which can be difficult if Chalice is preventing you from playing SDT (or brainstorm in response) in the first place, not to mention Thorn could push Verdict to CMC 5.
Imagine running 3 Reprisal and 3 EE, EE would take care all the chalices as well as Endless Ones. When EE refuses to show up, you can chain Reprisal + Snapcaster until you find EE/Wear/Disenchant to unlock yourself. Keep in mind, in the SB games, your Council's judgement and Terminus are magnets for Warping Wail, don't all-in on these sorcery spells.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I played some Legacy in Gothenburg last weekend...
I entered three events with the same 74/75 as Alex/Min/Sith have been playing. In the sideboard flex-slot I ran a Supreme Verdict over Izzet Staticaster/Surgical Extraction/Ham Sandwich.
I wanted an unconditional wrath in a field with a lot of Tarmogoyf, Merfolk and Eldrazi.
Here's a short report.
Event 1 (7 rounds+top8)
Elves (W)
Brave Sir Robin (W)
4-color Delver (W)
Manaless dredge (L)
Grixis Tezzeret (W)
Burn (W)
Eldrazi (ID)
T8:
Manaless dredge (L)
Event 2 (6 rounds+top8)
Esper control (W)
4-color Delver (W)
Shardless BUG (W)
Ant (W)
Miracles (ID)
Tin-Fins (W)
T8:
Eldrazi (W)
4-color delver with Stifle (W)
Miracles (W)
Event 3 (3 rounds single elimination)
Jund Nic-Fit (W)
Shardless BUG (W)
Merfolk (W)
16-2-2
If you have any questions feel free to ask.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dissection
Mulligan.
not even close. It's a functional 5 card hard w/o blue sources.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dissection
There's a few outside factors you have to consider when looking at this
while they say on the play vs. unknown opponent game 1, I have to think about the rest of the cards in my deck, I have to consider the variable of wasteland, etc.
For example, if I were playing Joe's list, I'd mulligan this hand in a heartbeat because the number of miserable draws are astronomical. Cavern, second karakas, etc. we absolutely have to find brainstorm and blue source to make this hand playable and the ability to do so is pretty hinged on deck construction
assuming top resolves w/ fow backup.
I think, even playing my list, it's a difficult decision and I think I'd personally mulligan this hand because while I could functionally draw into other cantrips, etc, it's just not a real hand without brainstorm. Finding that specific brainstorm and a blue source is going to be difficult. I'd think about it a fair bit, but, in the end, I think I'd mulligan this hand in favor of the scry for a mulligan to 6.
A few other things, if I were on the draw, I would 100% keep this hand
If I could scry, and randomly have one card from this hand removed to be a mulligan to 6, on the play, I'd keep.
Very interesting puzzle, thanks for the link!
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Mull. It doesn't even have an STP.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Quasim0ff
Mulligan.
not even close. It's a functional 5 card hard w/o blue sources.
That's an incredibly short sited way of viewing it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Minniehajj
There's a few outside factors you have to consider when looking at this
while they say on the play vs. unknown opponent game 1, I have to think about the rest of the cards in my deck, I have to consider the variable of wasteland, etc.
For example, if I were playing Joe's list, I'd mulligan this hand in a heartbeat because the number of miserable draws are astronomical. Cavern, second karakas, etc. we absolutely have to find brainstorm and blue source to make this hand playable and the ability to do so is pretty hinged on deck construction
assuming top resolves w/ fow backup.
I think, even playing my list, it's a difficult decision and I think I'd personally mulligan this hand because while I could functionally draw into other cantrips, etc, it's just not a real hand without brainstorm. Finding that specific brainstorm and a blue source is going to be difficult. I'd think about it a fair bit, but, in the end, I think I'd mulligan this hand in favor of the scry for a mulligan to 6.
A few other things, if I were on the draw, I would 100% keep this hand
If I could scry, and randomly have one card from this hand removed to be a mulligan to 6, on the play, I'd keep.
Very interesting puzzle, thanks for the link!
You raise some of the main points on my mind, mostly the emphasis that it's an unknown opponent and the relevance of the knowledge of the list. If this was Joes list, I think I'd mull too, but it's still close. Top is just that good in the deck.
But let's assume it's one of the 'hybrid' builds, a few Cliques and a single Karakas but with Ponders etc. Personally, I keep it. Against an unknown opponent, especially on the play, what I want is a basic land, a top and a FoW. Entreat and Terminus are dead for a while, and no blue is far from ideal obviously, but you have 4 looks to find just a live card to play 'on curve' depending on the matchup. A blue fetch is number one as it will dig you so much deeper into the deck whilst also turning on many more draws. StP and Terminus are also 'live' draws vs creature decks without finding a blue source.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutthroatCasual
Mull. It doesn't even have an STP.
My main argument for keeping, which coincides with what CutthroatCasual says, is that it's an unknown matchup and we are a reactive deck. You say it doesn't even have a StP, but what if you're playing against Belcher? Until we have the information what the matchup is, we want to land a top and develop land drops. Force of Will gives us some protection against combo and depending what we find from the top of our deck with top it can be used quite aggressively should it be needed.
This is a great question they've posed, and seems like a lot of people are split on it. The natural instinct is to assume the Miracles are essentially a forced mull already, but that really diverts away from the actual playability of the hand which is about card quality over quantity given our lack of information.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dissection
That's an incredibly short sited way of viewing it.
You raise some of the main points on my mind, mostly the emphasis that it's an unknown opponent and the relevance of the knowledge of the list. If this was Joes list, I think I'd mull too, but it's still close. Top is just that good in the deck.
But let's assume it's one of the 'hybrid' builds, a few Cliques and a single Karakas but with Ponders etc. Personally, I keep it. Against an unknown opponent, especially on the play, what I want is a basic land, a top and a FoW. Entreat and Terminus are dead for a while, and no blue is far from ideal obviously, but you have 4 looks to find just a live card to play 'on curve' depending on the matchup. A blue fetch is number one as it will dig you so much deeper into the deck whilst also turning on many more draws. StP and Terminus are also 'live' draws vs creature decks without finding a blue source.
My main argument for keeping, which coincides with what CutthroatCasual says, is that it's an unknown matchup and we are a reactive deck. You say it doesn't even have a StP, but what if you're playing against Belcher? Until we have the information what the matchup is, we want to land a top and develop land drops. Force of Will gives us some protection against combo and depending what we find from the top of our deck with top it can be used quite aggressively should it be needed.
This is a great question they've posed, and seems like a lot of people are split on it. The natural instinct is to assume the Miracles are essentially a forced mull already, but that really diverts away from the actual playability of the hand which is about card quality of quantity given our lack of information.
Sorry, I was about to leave.
Game 1, this is just not good enough. You are playing 12(10) cantrips, top included, so the mere argument that you "have a turn 1 top with force" is just not enough.
You have no protection against some of the most common decks; Delver (Swords), Storm (Interaction (Force is in no way enough)) and you can cast one spell in your hand.
For that hand to even be remotely playable we need the following:
1) Not just die to any of the top decks in the format, combo wise. This hand does nothing for this to happen.
2) Draw brainstorm.
3) Draw a fetchland.
4) Stabilize with no interaction for the first few turns.
I am in no way going to keep a hand with a karakas and a plains. I'd be more likely to keep it with double plains, to be honest. This hand is, together with everything else it has going against it, very weak to wasteland.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
That opening 7's merits are
1. Fow and a Blue card, stops abusive turn 1 play
2. Has 2 lands
3. SDT
The issue with that opening 7,
1. Effectively a 5 cards hand
2. CB is merely a FoW pitcher, not even close toward casting it
3. Drawing a Brainstorm or seeing a Brainstorm in the Top 3 is not even good enough, you still need to find your Blue source or fetch.
Instead of focusing on the 7, let's think about the 6. Assume we mulligan, what would happen? The worst case scenario is that your 6 has zero lands. If you run 20 lands Miracles, it's certainly possible. Say your 6 is a one-lander, you still get to scry. Let's say your 6-cards-one-lander is a blue source land/fetch, and you either have a cantrip in your other 5 cards or coming from the scry card; then, you are immediately better than that sad 7, even if those 5 cards don't have a SDT.
Look, the opening 7 stated is effectively a 5 with SDT as part of the 5. You're pretty much playing lottery for your first SDT activation. If you're stuck upon first activation (no fetch, no cantrip), you're stuck. Sure, you're safe-guard from turn 1 Chalice, turn 1 Vial, turn 1 whatever, but you are not going too much further from there.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I would keep it. Top on play + force and blue card of course is a very strong reason on play versus unknown opponent. 2 lands is something favorable too. Karakas may help against lands, reanimate or death and taxes. Its a substantial hand against miracles, death and taxes, belcher, show and tell, even eldrazi and reanimate, but not good against delver and infect.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
How long have you been playing Miracles? Because FoW + blue card does not mean auto keep. If even ONE of those lands was an Island (any kind), that hand is keepable. But as it is, it's garbage, even with the Top, which puts you down a turn because you'll be spinning on upkeep to find a blue source.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
As a D+T player, I'd give a Miracles player that hand any day. You're playing a Wasteland target on your second turn and have a bunch of dead cards in hand. If there's not a fetch in your top 3, you most likely just lose. It might beat a hand totally dependent on a Vial + Thalia, but there's no way you should go all in on that. Especially in the scry-rule era where mulligans are far less punished.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutthroatCasual
How long have you been playing Miracles? Because FoW + blue card does not mean auto keep. If even ONE of those lands was an Island (any kind), that hand is keepable. But as it is, it's garbage, even with the Top, which puts you down a turn because you'll be spinning on upkeep to find a blue source.
Hey, i'll ask you to please pay attention only to the thread and dont use argument from autorithy ("how long do you play..") to support your position. Believe it or not, but most of those present in this topic (including me), have been playing this deck for years. The question is so doubtful that both PVDDR (a very good miracles player) and Saporito chose to stay with his hand, but i did not used it as an argument. For the discussion, BBD would mulligan: "A deck with Ponder, Brainstorm, and Sensei's Divining Top is good at mulliganing, and this hand is really bad. You'd have to find a blue source and a brainstorm to make this hand do anything. One Force of Will by itself isn't enough. I normally keep any hand with top, but this hand is just too bad for me, and the beautiful thing is tjat Top can also just be in your 6 card hand! Also, don't play non-basic plains in your deck. This hand is a perfect example of why almost every land should produce blue mana".
I agree with you that "FoW + blue card does not mean auto keep", but that it not the single reason to keep this hand on play against a unknown opponent and meta.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dissection
The deck runs plenty of filters and cantrips which should help when mulliganing. The best value would be to stick Counterbalance into play without having to force it away, which probably isn't an option until turn 4 or turn 3 at the best. Force of will on turn one is good, but where do you go from there? Either way, the path to closing out the game is far off without blue mana and keeping this just doesn't make sense to me.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stefanogs
Hey, i'll ask you to please pay attention only to the thread and dont use argument from autorithy ("how long do you play..") to support your position. Believe it or not, but most of those present in this topic (including me), have been playing this deck for years. The question is so doubtful that both PVDDR (a very good miracles player) and Saporito chose to stay with his hand, but i did not used it as an argument.
I agree with you that "FoW + blue card does not mean auto keep", but that it not the single reason to keep this hand on play against a unknown opponent and meta.
First of all, if you look at the comment section of CFB site, BBD has already said Mulligan.
Second, I am not certain about the assessment of PVDDR (a very good miracles player). PVDDR is a great PT-level magic player, but there are many experts, who are not on PT, has a lot more experience and enjoy some degree of achievement in Miracles, arguably more so than PV.
If you want to go by credential, I would go by Reid Duke, BBD, Schönegger, and Lossett over PV. I would question why should Legacy Miracles players care about PV so much. Saporito who?
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
First of all, if you look at the comment section of CFB site, BBD has already said Mulligan.
Second, I am not certain about the assessment of PVDDR (a very good miracles player). PVDDR is a great PT-level magic player, but there are many experts, who are not on PT, has a lot more experience and enjoy some degree of achievement in Miracles, arguably more so than PV.
If you want to go by credential, I would go by Reid Duke, BBD, Schönegger, and Lossett over PV. I would question why should Legacy Miracles players care about PV so much. Saporito who?
1. As I said, i did not want to use credentials to justify if i would or not keep this hand, but only exemplified that some people with experience would keep it (while others do not - like BBD).
2. Just clarifying (for the love of nationality...), PV may not be playing the SCG or Bazaar, but legacy is his favorite constructed format and he even did top 8 on GP Paris 2014 with Miracles.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I think that's a greedy keep. It's fine against Delver, since you have plenty of time to hit a blue land, and all of your Swords and Terminus are live draws. It's beyond terrible against combo, though. You need to hit double blue for Counterbalance, and the miracles in hand truly are dead. If you have to pitch Counterbalance, it just gets worse.
As I see it, if Legacy is 60% midrange/creature decks, and 40% combo, that hand is 60% to be just barely keepable, and 40% to be unplayable. A mulligan with a free scry seems much better.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Mull fo'sho.
Terminus is dead, EtA is dead, CB is dead other than being a pitch card, thus FoW'ing or not FoW'ing both makes it a virtual 4-card hand. Plus you have no interaction beyond FoW until the end of the early game.
Another aspect that wasn't mentioned yet: :u: + BS isn't enough, since you need to be able to cast BS AND shuffle EtA + Terminus away, meaning you need to find :u: AND a fetch.
So yeah, *insert "nope meme".
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I would mull this hand too. but this case feels a little too extreme. Lets make it a little more interesting.
1) What if the Karakas was a Tundra?
2) What if the Karakas was an Island?
3) What if the Karakas was an Arid Mesa?
Would any of this circumstance change your decisions on mulling?
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
If an apple were an orange, would that change things?
