Massacre is crap against Elves. Costs a ton because they probably don't have a Plains out, and is dead vs. Teeg. Would rather play Infest, I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdingo
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Massacre is crap against Elves. Costs a ton because they probably don't have a Plains out, and is dead vs. Teeg. Would rather play Infest, I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdingo
I don't think that it is crap, i see alot they fetch into bayou,then into Savannah(I mean they don't know that the ANT player plays a Massacre) but i would board it in. It can hit them.;)
When it hits its take a lot speed.
And why i should play Infest? 3 mana? that's crap in my option.
Without Gaddock Teeg in Hand (and no Birchlore Ranger or Deathrite in Play) there is no reason to fetch for savannah for elves. So massacre is dead vs an good opponent and/or teeg. If an elf-player fears massacre he can also bounce savannah via quirion ranger in his turn (your upkeep etc.). I fought against 3 storm combo decks (2x ant, 1x spanish inquisition) at gp strasbourg and never lost with elves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdingo
Pyroclasm is - in my opinion -the best way (besides cost, but hey - only two mana) to fight hatebears/swarms without mother of runes/counter protection.
Agree
yeah Pyroclasm is probably the best Option for slow down elves. But the important thing is: Keep Fast hands against elves. Then you don't need that.
Totally agree. Infest is just too expensive, I'm back to Pyroclasm myself (playing a version w/ B. Wish).Quote:
Originally Posted by MD.Ghost
idk i mean teeg/thalia + mother is gg with pyroclasm, infest at least kills all this. im currently testing prosak list -1 preordain+1 grim tutor (without burning wish) and im afraid of not having answers g1 agains that kind of play
Most of the time I am playing the BW-Lists, but that Prosak-list seems interesting to me at the moment (currently testing with -2 Preordain, +1 Grim +1 Therapy and the Trop main instead of 1 Island to increase SB-Space). Yeah, when you had the luxury before to BW for an out to a mother/hatebear-lock it seems like a step back to play straight UB (with a tiny PiF-Splash). But after boarding you have Decays and/or CoV to solve this kind of problem, which should usually be enough (I play a 3/2-split at the moment). So, show your ballz and just win G2+3 :cool:. Sadly ANT often doesn't have the raw speed to win before Thalia/Teeg appears (like TES for example).Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberTooth
If Hatebears/Mother-locks are common in your meta, play Dread of Nights, but this would eat at least 3 SB-Slots.
Xantid Swarms seem necessary right now against Show and Tell. It's the best way to fight Leyline of Sanctity without boarding in too many dead bounce spells (and it's good against them even without Leyline in play).
Yeah it seems difficult to beat a deck with a bunch of counterspells and Leyline without any sort of Silence effects. Swarm is a pretty bad topdeck though if you're trying to find protection to go off right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
Isn't RR pretty hard to produce in ANT? Most of the time you're going to be shipping the turn anyway unless you have a Petal in play that you can burn. Pyroclasm is a fine option, but I'm just dubious that 2RR is realistic in one turn. And then if you do have to ship turn, not being able to Dark Ritual out Pyroclasm could potentially be an issue with Thalia in play.Quote:
Originally Posted by dune2k
Another option to consider if you think Clasm is a realistic option: Grapeshot. TES uses it as a split card Pyroclasm // mini Storm when we've beat down with Empty for 10 or so. It works well at both jobs.
When I played ANT, I always played a Virtue's Ruin in the board. Why has that fallen out of favor? The only hatebears you're worried about are white (possibly in addition to green). I know I've lost to a Canonist suited up with a Sword of Light and Shadow with a Infest in hand, and I've also lost to a Knight of the Reliquary swinging for lots with Infest in hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberTooth
Pardon the n00b question, but I'm just getting into ANT and I'm trying to figure out how to sideboard and this matchup in particular is seeming difficult for me. What are you boarding out in order to bring in some quantity of bounce spells AND xantid swarms? Are you just giving up on discard and trying to be faster than them? Or are you trimming Preordains?Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
In my limited sideboarding I have been having real trouble figuring out what can get cut when you need to bring in more than like 3 cards.
Greatly prefer virtue's ruin to infest in general. The cost is easier at 2B vs. 1BB and it kills KotR as well, because kotr fetching bojuka bog at instant speed is basically FoW against us. But right now I don't run virtue's ruin because maverick isn't common enough in my area and without maverick in the meta the card is quite useless in comparison to other options.
Going to try a different sideboard tomorrow with swarms, it will likely be -2 thoughtseize -1 chain of vapor +3 xantid swarm. Top floating FoW is a concern as well as the leyline and show and tell issue (it might be just me but I always get turn 2 griselbrand against me via SnT and I fucking hate that card landing against me so much.) Show and tell has been picking up in popularity and losing to that deck makes me want to die when they think they're so clever with their very easy to assemble combo of fatty + enabler.
Also, lose to elves combo? With ANT? The ANT pilot is either bricking off quite hard or is incompetent. Elves is slower and we can pick them apart with hand disruption. Pyroclasm is a giant crutch against them that we don't really need. Duress takes GSZ, glimpse, and NO preboard. Therapy is great if you know how to use it against them. Postboard bounce and abrupt decay is enough. The only remotely hard thing game 1 is an active DRS and even that can be played around because they shouldn't combo off through your discard on them or you can tutor chain them out or have enough mana to go tutor -> tutor -> PiF -> win. The only shot they have is a discard heavy board in games 2 and 3 and potentially mindbreak trap and other such hate that can be played around or through via proper cantripping and not keeping loose hands.
RR is "ok" to produce. With a Thalia in play shipping the turn usually is the only way to cast the clasm or even infest, since your normally don't have enough mana that turn anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
Mom def. is a problem when running clasm, but when you are sure to encounter a lot of maverick you'd need to tune your deck differently anyways (DoN, maybe slaughter pact to board in etc). It's - at least in my deck - only there to have an out to the random maverick players you sometimes encounter or to wipe the board to survive another turn (it happens, but shouldn't be the case).
I'm a long time player of Esper Stoneblade, RUG, and Elves. I just traded my divining tops and a moat for LEDs, Infernal Tutors, and some other stuff. Just put the deck together today.
I tested earlier against RUG and Elves, and enjoy the deck immensely.
I just had a couple questions for experienced ANT players:
1) What are the benefits to ANT over TES? My thought is that it is easier to go off. By easier, I mean it appears to be a much less complex decision tree, and I personally like that, especially for long tournaments. So to that end, ANT would appear both easier and a bit more consistent, but less explosive. Is that about right?
2) How do I sideboard? Given that you rarely seem to produce redundant mana, spell pierce, daze, and the like are REALLY annoying. I know this must be the reason for Carpet of Flowers. I just didn't know what to board out.
So to be more specific, what are the typical cards that get boarded out? Also, Abrupt Decay - I imagine the real problem cards this hits are Thalia, Teeg, Chalice of the Void, and Counter balance. There is a fair amount of MUD where I play so it seems good against trinisphere too. When else does it come in?
Thanks in advance!
Congrats on taking the plunge! I've found storm much more rewarding than Stoneblade, hopefully you will too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainstormer
1) You're correct. ANT is easier because it's overall more linear on Past in Flames and isn't smooshing all the decisions into the mulligan and turns 1-2. People completely new to storm regularly do well with ANT. More cantrips help recover from small mistakes, you don't have Burning Wish opening up more lines to consider (in most builds nowadays), and you don't have to worry about colors really. That being said, no storm combo is exactly easy. As far as consistency, that's debated, but TES players feel that the consistency issue is overemphasized by ANT players. I know personally that I mulligan at about the same rate with both decks (not much). ANT is certainly less explosive. It's capable of turn 1-2 kills, but t3 is more likely.
2) I'm not honestly sure, but the reasoning I heard for Carpet was to reduce graveyard dependence, so some Cabal Rituals go. I think if ANT is good, it's because Cabal Ritual is a +3 and you can expect to have 3+ lands in play so redundant mana shouldn't honestly be a huge concern. But, taxing counters are one of the main reasons people on this board have talked about splashing W for Silence.
Uhhh, Abrupt Decay comes in when there are hate permanents? It seems like you figured it out...
Thanks! A lot of useful info.
So I have a sense of what to board in and why, but boarding cards out is my big issue! I'm not sure what the most expendable stuff is. Hopefully I can figure it out in time, once I have a better feel for the deck.
Welcome to the dark side. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainstormer
ANT vs TES: Admittedly having played a lot less TES than ANT, I find the complexity of both decks reasonably close. Figuring out the extra-angles Burning Wish allows you to take shouldn't really take much effort once your comfortable playing storm. The real thing that makes playing Storm difficult is how much planning you have to do to figure out lines that play around what the opponent could have and those remain the same for both decks.
As for the trade-offs, this is what I had in the pre-Strasbourg article and I still think it remains essentially true:
TES is able to profit more easily from early game openings. The maindeck Empty the Warrens, higher business count, and stronger Ad Nauseams (due to lower converted mana costs and Chrome Moxes) allow the deck to win faster than ANT usually does. Silence is also a much better card to protect yourself while going off than anything ANT can support because it punishes soft counters incredibly well.
What TES gains in speed, ANT regains in resilience. A more resilient mana base (basics, no Chrome Moxes, City of Brasses, or Gemstone Mines), more fetchlands to interact with your cantrips, and more cantrips in general as well as a game plan much more suited to rely on Past in Flames as compared to TES give ANT a much stronger turn 3+ game plan than TES.
As for sideboarding, you usually either switch protection packages (discard for permanent hate) or have to shave a few slots to make room. Things I generally consider for shaving: Probe, Preordain, Lotus Petal, Cabal Ritual, a minor amount of discard, the Grim Tutor. Also consider shaving a land in the fast combo mirror. Against no-discard tempo-decks, Ad Nauseam gets boarded out for Empty the Warrens in my list.
Welcome to the club! One thing thats best about this deck be it UBr or TES is that you only have one goal: EXPLODE, and then you win. No more combat tricks, none of the "will I counter this or that" type of thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainstormer
Just EXPLODE!!!
Thanks to your timely statements in another certain thread, I have also been playing storm. That said, I would like to know why there's such a discrepancy in tutor choice? Is there any general consensus on whether the cantrips, 1 grim tutor, or burning wishes are the best choice?Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
There is no consense. The question pops up every 2-3 pages in this thread lately. Please scroll a few pages back for the pro's and con's for each buildQuote:
Originally Posted by Maximus
The linked spreadsheet in my signature has some data regarding the quantitative differences between the decks, but unfortunately that doesn't really give much information about the qualitative differences between them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximus
It just straight-up doesn't make sense to me to play 4 Preordains before the first Grim Tutor and the 7th discard spell, but I haven't really tested the 16-cantrip list. I know Prosak's list has done well over many events, so it can't be awful.
I don't really see the point in running Burning Wish in a Cabal Ritual shell. It doesn't play nice with Cabal Ritual or Past in Flames, just like Chrome Mox (which coincidentally helps maximize Burning Wish).