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Hello carefulmug, welcome onboard! :)
Yep, I think that if meta moves more towards the creature decks, additional burn will be necessary. The only thing I dislike in your list are the three FowS (but there's nothing one may do about it), no Snares (I guess that Thalia, Spirit OTL, Goyf, SFM, Counterbalance and other spells need to be kept in check) and the Chain Lightnings, which should be Forked Bolts, as you noted.
Thank you for the welcome.
Regarding Spell Snare, the SFM, SotL, and Thalia issue is ideally resolved by the additional burn. If opposing Goyfs and Counterbalances are problematic, there is a case to be made for Snares, indeed, and I believe they take Spell Pierce's slot.
Yes, those creatures are solved by burn (well, except for Goyf, you must use the combat step to get rid of it), but as Legacy meta is very wide, I would feel strange to not have an answer to cmc2 spells that are able to win on spot, be it Counterbalance, Burning Wish or anything else. the fact that Snare also hits annoying creatures is a cherry on top. It's too versatile to not use it, at least as a one of.Quote:
Originally Posted by carefulmug
3 Fows? Sry that is a nogo my friend as Fow is an excellent tempo counter which helps to get rid of anything.
Cut Pierces/Snares/Goyfs first before you cut forces.
I would probably run a list with 3 Goyfs 4 fows 3 Spell Snares 2 Forked Bolts and 2 Dismember (to get rid of goyfs,germtokens,tombstalker)
An additional copy of rough/tumble can be put in the sb.
I like dismember in general as it gets you back in the game even if your opponent is far ahead with goyf.
- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -
@Carefulmug
I like your list but for most of the same reason you're running chain lightnings to deal with 2cmc threats like Stoneforge, Bob, Spirit of the labyrinth, etc snare does the same thing minus the extra reach. It just seems like snare might be better. Patriot Aggro and D&T have their mana denial plan which can leave us without red. At least with Snare it can be cast off both of our lands making it much harder to disrupt. Dismember is another choice I really like due to the easy mana and it deals with nearly every problem creature aside TNN, Kotr (tentatively depending on size/combat).
Another card I would recommend trying is Sylvan library instead of a fourth Goyf (thanks @Sasan). At first I wasn't too sure but after going T1 goose, T2 library against Esper Stoneblade and continuing to either fetch/ponder to see 3 new cards every turn I was sold. It's like pondering/ brainstorming every turn.
If you Bolt or Snare a Bob or SotL does not make the biggest difference Tempo-wise, but CL is plain bad against SFM, Goofy, Infernal Tutor and Rest in Piece.Quote:
Originally Posted by Contract Killer
I wouldn't advise playing with 3 FOWs and more burn. As much as possible we want to use our mana to advance the game state while delaying our opponent Snare can ba strong but it also has it's limits. It can't counter show and tell, sneak attack, planeswalkers, batterskull, most sweepers etc. However, if you can guarantee that you'll be facing only decks from the DTB then you can definitely include snares.
edit: changed 2nd sentence from delaying us to delaying opponent :)
There are some serious arguments in last few posts. I'm convinced that no less than 4 FoWs should be played, and I'm also back in a camp of as few burn as possible (meaning, quite ironically, that in a particular metagame - be it Elves or DRS - this might mean up to seven Bolts).
For a blind metagame, I'd advice to use something like this:
base:
4 FoW
4 Bolt
and then:
2 Pierce (PWs, Terminus, DRit, RiP, StP...)
1 Snare (Thalia, Counterbalance, IT, SFM, Goyf...)
2 Forked Bolt or Tarfire (I'm not really satisfied with the latter, but I need to test it more; usual targets are DRS, MoR, Symbiont, Bob...)
1 choice slot (seventh burn, Rough, Sylvan Library, w/e)
I'm quite unimpressed with Sylvan Library, but I need to admit I played it just for a while. On paper it looks strong, but then on some other paper, it's a CA+CQ card that needs turns to function. And I'm still not sure if tempo deck wants to move into mid-late game.
Gonna out tonight, gonna try Thresh with 2 Tarfires and 1 Rough/Tumble. I hope I won't be disappointed. I somehow loved to play Forked Bolt instead, but as I don't have the Chinese ones (they're so hard to find!) and I wish to test the Tarfire again, I'm fine with the list.
I think you should consider this card for those spots:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...tions=rotate90
It handles everything from DRS/Delver up to Tarmogoyf/Tombstalker/Griselbrand
@lemnear: i saw dead/gone a lot in tokyo last year when team america was a very popular DTB there.
Bouncing a tombstalker or germ token was great.
However,dismember does solve the same problems.
- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -
True. I cannot estimate, how the lifeloss affects the mirror thoughQuote:
Originally Posted by sawatarix
@Bad Decks Player
You only need Sylvan library against games that go long like Stoneblade control, miracles, jund, etc. The ability to out draw them to find more removal, threats, or answers is amazing.
For example playing against stoneblade I knocked him down to 12ish with a single goose. After exhausting his Stoneforge mystic and Liliana only to be met by snare and force he used supreme verdict. The next turn sylvan found me another threat immediately. It's so much card advantage when you just need to keep jamming threats or need to draw removal.
Guys, guys, guys, this is some old tech. I played Dead/Gone in my sb three years ago... when I confused it for Rough/Tumble. :laugh:
Seriously, good idea. I don't remeber how it went back then (I think I returned Iona with it), but it might be a good tool. What I like about Dismember is the ability to play a Goyf-killing card from a Wasteland. What I dislike about it is lifeloss and not enough versatility. This card kills DRs, removes Goyf, neutralizes BSkull/Grisly and [fixed]. Really interesting!
Btw, what's the opinion on Assault/Battery? Yep, a 3/3 slon for four ain't The Best Creature of Legacy (TM), but it may help when there's nothing else to do (midgame?). And Assault still kills DRS and throws a sorcery in gy to feed the Goyf.
I'm quite tempted to try some insane split of splits like
1 Assault/Battery (to kill the elf and to have a midgame beater)
1 Dead/Gone (to kill the elf and to remove midgame beaters)
1 Rough/Tumble (to kill ALL the elves and to... well... remove endgame Tombstalkers?)
Yes, I guess that for attrition matchups this must be perfect. My main concerns with those matchups are: why we should try to beat them on their terms and ground - I'd rather out-tempo them -, and if the mus are too usual, why we don't switch to another deck? (Well, coz I don't have any other deck after I sold most of my stuff? Ok, but that's another story...)Quote:
Originally Posted by Contract Killer
@Bad Decks palyerQuote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
The thing is we're not trying to beat them on their own terms. You only need to use it for finding answers or more threats. It still fits into our game plan because it gives us the edge we need against decks like Jund with excessive removal.
I swear that was the reason to run Mongeese, test with TNN and Sawatarix trolling Control/Jund with Kai ... erm ... Thrun, the last TrollQuote:
Originally Posted by Contract Killer
I thought about Thrun, too. I think I found it somewhere in this thread, so it looks like it was some of you, guys.
I dislike his casting cost, but I may try him out. I loved Troll Ascetic, but it's nowhere good as it was six years ago. so maybe I'll give Thrun a chance.
Also, I'm still considering some funny split of flex slots, something to troll a bit (although not that brilliantly as Thrun can):
Assault//Battery
Dead//Gone
Fire//Ice
:really:
As a sidenote: I guess that as long as I have all the money cards for NO RUG except for NO alone, I may also to build it and try (alongsdie Progenitus) Thrun and... Primeval Titan. :cool:
I haven't tried TNN yet, but from what I've read it's just plain bad in RUG. Half the time you can't cast it the other half you don't want to because you can't protect it with your spell pierce etc to make sure it resolves. Rug doesn't want to be paying 3 mana for a creature because it's too slow and we can't really keep disruption up simultaneously. To put it simply Nimble Mongoose is getting worse with the amount of playable board wipes in legacy Terminus, Supreme Verdict, Toxic Deluge, Liliana (might as well be a board wipe for us).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Thrun just seems bad again same reason as TNN but I could be proved wrong.
@BedDecksPlayer:
I feel Fire//Ice is the preferable card of those three when it comes to Mainboard inclusion. Fire is an instantaneous forked bolt and Ice cantrips while removing to FoW. The maneuverability is highest.
To the board, what are current opinions regarding what seemed the standard
3x Gitaxian Probe
1x Fire//Ice
2x Spell Pierce
plan? It struck me as aggressive and fast, helping to end games before we lose power in our soft counters and land disruption.
Also, has anybody experimented with Ensnare in SB? I'm running 2x in place of Rough//Tumbles and it has been very powerful in racing TNN and a variety of other scenarios that we would usually lose to, such as Griselbrand, Craterhoof, Germs, Emrakul. Against Team America and BUG thresh, it breaks through Goyf and Tombstalker stalemates. All while being "free", instant speed, and pitching to Force.
Also. NO RUG might be fun to experiment with again. The Format has slowed down to around Mental Misstep era, no?
Quote:
Originally Posted by carefulmug
I'm not playing RUG right now 'cause I'm testing Patriot, but last time I played it I used this configuration and I loved it.
As you noted, Fire//Ice seems the best "extra-Bolt" to maindeck because of its versatility, while Gitaxian is great in this deck: it makes us reaching threshold faster, and above all it gives information on opponent's hand, which is vital in RUG since we can follow very different strategies depending on what the opponent is playing.
Probes were usually the first cards I boarded out in games 2&3 because they had already performed their primary role, but I think they are vital in game 1.
So here's something I've been wondering what's people stance on probe? Originally I thought it was horrible and that I would rather want more steam. After trying it out I learned how powerful it can be in sequencing plays that normally you wouldn't due to being cautious or whatever.
4 delver
4 goose
3 goyf
1 Sylvan Library
4 FOW
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dissmember
3 Spell snare
2 Spell pierce
STOCK 18 land package
Now after trying this configuration I've come to the conclusion that if you can read your opponent, know what to play around that you don't need probe. I mean how many times have you probed and it be irrelevant against Jund having abrupt decay or show and tell having the perfect hand? Probe has both done wonders and bricked for me I'm just curious what people think about it. Another thing right now in particular I think Spell Snare seems really powerful across the board.