[Deck] The Rock

If Blind Obedience made lands come into play tapped, a la Root Maze tech, I'd be all for it. With our mana acceleration, as narrow as it is (Shaman, GSZ>>Arbor), is great way to just jump way ahead. Where it taps only artifacts and creatures, welp, that just doesn't seem that great to me. I've said this already: discard is incredible against Sneaky Show. They need to have 1) an enabler, 2) a fatty, and 3) disruption, usually Force. If you start the hand attack turn 1 and have a good density of discard effects (Seize, IoK, Hymns, Liliana, Sculler) you're going to be doing a fairly good job at dealing with most of their tech. Board in O-Rings and you should be in good shape.

For elves, I think Golgari Charm is probably the best all-around solution (or Zealous Persecution in the Lingering Souls builds.)

For me, I'm at a crossroads. I want to stick with Sculler and I have 3x Tarmogoyf now. That sort of squeezes out GSZ, which I have dropped to only 1 copy. I also have tech I just traded for with a pair of Mystics and a Batterskull. I want to play ALL of them, and Lingering Souls, too. There just isn't enough room.

Thoughts here? Help a brutha decide what to do with his threat density/package. A couple of non-negotiable points:

1) Not dropping Bobs
2) Not dropping Deathrites
2) Not going below 2x Sylvan Library

Beyond that, the deck is wide open for tweaks. I wish I could just look at all of the different lists side by side, that would be really, really helpful.

Couldn't you effectively drop 1 shamen for a GSZ? Then again I'm not a fan of the 4 shaman lists. You've dropped witness from your list?

Witness gave way for more Goyfs, which were the right move.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

For me, I'm at a crossroads. I want to stick with Sculler and I have 3x Tarmogoyf now. That sort of squeezes out GSZ, which I have dropped to only 1 copy. I also have tech I just traded for with a pair of Mystics and a Batterskull. I want to play ALL of them, and Lingering Souls, too. There just isn't enough room.

Thoughts here? Help a brutha decide what to do with his threat density/package. A couple of non-negotiable points:

1) Not dropping Bobs
2) Not dropping Deathrites
2) Not going below 2x Sylvan Library

Beyond that, the deck is wide open for tweaks. I wish I could just look at all of the different lists side by side, that would be really, really helpful.

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I think you toss the souls in the board in this case (going by the list on the last page). Shave your NO count to 3 and use your flex spot for Souls. It's tight to fit it all in without issues. You're running 61 (fyi, potential starting point edits bring to 60) in that list so fitting the last shaman in shouldn't be an issue. This is what I came up with for changes:

-1 Deathrite Shaman
-1 Knight of the Reliquary
-1 Tidehollow Sculler
-1 Inquisition of Kozilek
-2 Green Sun's Zenith
-1 Sensei's Divining Top

+1 Tarmogoyf
+3 Stoneforge Mystic
+1 Batterskull
+1 Jitte/Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard

-1 Natural Order
-1 Flex Slot
+2 Lingering Souls


Again, I went back to 60 per habit so nix the shaman line to keep 4.

Basically you're swapping the Sculler;Goyf ratio so that shouldn't cause an issue. The SFM may be a little clunky and will definitely need some tuning. I'm recommending the SoFI>Jitte because you're short a top. It's actually what I'm trying right now and if I could ever get the upload from this weekend to go I could show you how testing went. For now, you'll just have to take my word that it really didn't matter (not having the top).

The room for everything was just from shaving numbers down. The cutting of GSZ may end up being the bigger deal because it allows you to remove the arbor at little to no loss but in itself, it may be a catastrophe. I figured you were already consistent enough to allow it's removal (almost all 4's in the initial list) at minimal cost to performance (theory). I don't know if it'll be for a benefit but that's why we test.

Unfortunately, there are no real ways besides editing the window sized and queuing up the lists next to each other for changes (unless someone knows another way... spreadsheets don't count).

It's so hard to fit everything, so don't feel bad. I feel like Souls could easily be a sideboard card as well, depending on your meta.

I could see Blind Obedience, in a way, being good against say, Esperblade. Why? They gum up the board with tokens, which make your big dudes look not so good. Clearing them out is a serious pain in the ass. Blind makes pooping tokens slightly worse, since they cannot protect Jace THAT turn, and Batterskull's token will CitP tapped as well. This is interesting.

-Matt

It also helps delay Jund's Bloodbraid plus cascade.

I've lately been running into a TON of RiP decks. Generally Miracles and Death and Taxes. The tactic generally has been to hold my Abrupt Decay for dear life, but I still lose tons of momentum when Goyfs and Knights become awful cards.

It makes the likes of Golgari Charm more important, but has anyone experimented with something like Hero of Bladehold to act as pure beatstick? I see Sigarda get mention, is she plainly more powerful as a 1x? That 5-6 cc seems extremely high, especially when you lose DRS to RiP. Is Linvala relevant?

I'd probably want to swap out for SFM package, but I don't have it.

I'm also curious about those times that I get dream crushed by Leyline of Sanctity with a hand full of Seizes and Hymns, and possibly subbing in Bottomless Pit or something...

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Originally Posted by Claymore

It also helps delay Jund's Bloodbraid plus cascade.

I've lately been running into a TON of RiP decks. Generally Miracles and Death and Taxes. The tactic generally has been to hold my Abrupt Decay for dear life, but I still lose tons of momentum when Goyfs and Knights become awful cards.

It makes the likes of Golgari Charm more important, but has anyone experimented with something like Hero of Bladehold to act as pure beatstick? I see Sigarda get mention, is she plainly more powerful as a 1x? That 5-6 cc seems extremely high, especially when you lose DRS to RiP. Is Linvala relevant?

I'd probably want to swap out for SFM package, but I don't have it.

I'm also curious about those times that I get dream crushed by Leyline of Sanctity with a hand full of Seizes and Hymns, and possibly subbing in Bottomless Pit or something...

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RiP seems to be gaining popularity, I know. This is where Equipment and pure beatsticks do become more viable, I'd agree. I'm also running Charm in the board with the rise of the RiP decks so I don't have to hold Decay as often. You can also try Thrun. Uncounterable is also a big deal, since most of those decks run Swords/Path/Counterspells. Linvala, being a 3/4 flier, could also be good.

charm is also a great out to Humility as well, in case you're running Qasali :/

-Matt

@ Damionblackgear: I have shaved Swords to Plowshares to three. Don't think I want to lower. The rest of my removal consist out of four Decay and one Pulse. Also have one Pulse in the board. If I would take out StP entirely, I would consider Pulse and/or Vindicate. I already play Liliana main as a two of, so Edict would be a SB-option (that is if S&T would be really big in my meta -which is not the case-)

Curious as to how people feel about this:
Since I run KotR I use the one of lands like normal: Maze, Bojuka, ect. While trying to build a Karador EDH deck (since I have the duals/fetches) I came across this gem:

Volrath's Stronghold

Seems good for when we just get pumbled by Abrupt Decay. Also for setting up the top card of our library with something small if we're low on life with Bob on the field? (Specific situations I know, but it seems versatile/good.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kpicco

Curious as to how people feel about this:
Since I run KotR I use the one of lands like normal: Maze, Bojuka, ect. While trying to build a Karador EDH deck (since I have the duals/fetches) I came across this gem:

Volrath's Stronghold

Seems good for when we just get pumbled by Abrupt Decay. Also for setting up the top card of our library with something small if we're low on life with Bob on the field? (Specific situations I know, but it seems versatile/good.

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damionblackgear and mr safety already use it.
I have mixed feeling toward it, because it can only achieve it's "peak" in a kotr build where it can be tutored, but then I'm greedy and I'd want 4 wastelands AND maze.
Come to think of it, I think that I can blame my greed for not coming up with a version of the deck for too long... I want it ALL....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kpicco

Curious as to how people feel about this:
Since I run KotR I use the one of lands like normal: Maze, Bojuka, ect. While trying to build a Karador EDH deck (since I have the duals/fetches) I came across this gem:

Volrath's Stronghold

Seems good for when we just get pumbled by Abrupt Decay. Also for setting up the top card of our library with something small if we're low on life with Bob on the field? (Specific situations I know, but it seems versatile/good.

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Stronghold was part of the original Rock builds and was a staple then. The current version uses it from time to time but it's usually cut again after the meta it's needed for is gone. It may be that time again. Here's the link to the previous thread --> Link <-- It may be old but we've gone almost full circle from about 3 years ago so the opinions from that time may be useful as well. That's also the time frame that Stronghold stopped being a staple in the decks.

Also, I think I'm going to try cutting swords again and seeing how it goes. Abrupt Decay will fill it's slot and I'll re-add the missing Pulse. The mention of edict was because that's what was used at the time and it's also a 2cc spell.

Volrath's Stronghold is powerful, but it's still a colorless mana producing land in a deck that regularly needs GB/GW/BB mana.

As others have pointed out, it's best in the KoTR builds and is a lot less necessary if you're running the Lingering Souls builds.

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Originally Posted by Sughayyer

damionblackgear and mr safety already use it.
I have mixed feeling toward it, because it can only achieve it's "peak" in a kotr build where it can be tutored, but then I'm greedy and I'd want 4 wastelands AND maze.
Come to think of it, I think that I can blame my greed for not coming up with a version of the deck for too long... I want it ALL....

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What other "build" is there but a KOTR build? The deck actually really needs Knight, and you certainly wouldn't need to run 4 wastelands if you ran KOTR. Having a land package is one of the only outs this deck has to S&T and it helps deal with GY strategies as well. Tutoring Maze is also a huge deal for buying some time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kich867

What other "build" is there but a KOTR build? The deck actually really needs Knight, and you certainly wouldn't need to run 4 wastelands if you ran KOTR. Having a land package is one of the only outs this deck has to S&T and it helps deal with GY strategies as well. Tutoring Maze is also a huge deal for buying some time.

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I've been having success with the SFM + Lingering Souls build whereas others are still on the KotR + GSZ plan. I've run both builds before, and I can assure you that in a grindy, attrition based meta, the KotR + GSZ build dies a horrible, horrible death. There's literally nothing worse against a Jund opponent than to play your KotR, get it Abrupt Decayed eot, then they drop BBE and you lose.

KOtR was and is one of my favorite creatures. However, in this meta full of removal spells he does *nothing* if he doesn't untap, and he can't protect itself very well (the sejiri steppe stuff is terrible, I tried, liked it in the first 2 days then hated it). Lingering souls has a direct impact on the board, renders opposing lilianas useless (nullifying the first 2 abilities) and has the option of being recast.
That said, a lot of time we need BIG beaters. That's when tarmogoyf comes in.

Now I'm thinking.... if we run tarmogoyf (big guy, good vs combo and closes the life gap between us and the opponents) and lingering souls, couldn't we cut smf and leave, say, a jitte and a sword (or 2 jittes) in the deck? I don't think we'd miss batterskull. We could go 3 shaman, 4 bob, 3 goyf, 3 knight, 3 souls, 3 equipments and 2 gsz.
I'm also tempted to run hymn to tourach maindeck again. Reasoning: a few months back, I'd rather choose a card that would make a difference against my deck to take away. Now all decks I see have A LOT of things that are troublesome... so a hymn will never take away "meh" stuff... I'll also check the old thread to get some ideas.

I appreciate the help fellas, and I think I have a starting point for the deck for now.

-1 Sculler (two seems more right than 3 in the maindeck, unclogs the 2cc slots)
-1 Sylvan Library (split with SDT to further unclog the 2cc slots)
-1 Inquisition of Kozilek (2 in the maindeck now)
-1 Knight of the Reliquary (with GSZ, I can still find them often enough and they aren't performing as well with a format stuffed full of Deathrite Shamans. Still good, especially when you untap against greedy mana bases and you go for the Waste-lock)

That frees up 4 slots for Stoneforge Mystic x2, Batterskull, and Jitte

Side note @damianblackgear: I don't want to trim to 3 Deathrites, it is useful as NO fodder. I can pull off a turn 3 NO more reliably. Ditto on GSZ, it fetches Dryad Arbor/Deathrite which allows my fetchlands to settle the mana with Bayou/Scrubland/Savanna.

List:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
3x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Tarmogoyf
2x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Tidehollow Sculler

2x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Vindicate
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sylvan Library
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Batterskull
1x Jitte

4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Misty Rainforest
2x Bayou
2x Scrubland
1x Savannah
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Treetop Village
1x Dryad Arbor

Sideboard:

3x Natural Order
1x Progenitus
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Choke
2x Pernicious Deed
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Lingering Souls


This is where I'm at right now. I dropped the V-Stronghold because 5 colorless lands in this deck is brutal. When you mulligan 3 land hands because *none* of them produce colored mana, you have a problem. I am playing a lower curve now, but I still feel a little awkward with only 22 lands. I don't mind the 61 card list, as long as that 61st card is land #23. I'm going to test this out for now...but I feel bad without that 23rd land. I won't go to 62 cards, that's just foolishness. I'd drop to 2x Knight before I did that.

I think you could safely drop 1 Sword and either stay there or add in an additional land.

Your manabase looks so dangerous. I was shocked you could fit everything you did into the list, but running 22 lands with that many colorless / comes into play tapped /can't tap lands?

I would cut a waste for a bayou..and try to fit another land in. Otherwise I really like that list. I'd probably move batterskull to the board and bring SOFAF in instead, and cut a Stoneforge Mystic. You only ever really want to see one, and they're just fetching an equipment for your better beaters. So imo, cut one SFM, and one waste, for like, a bayou and a savannah or something.

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Originally Posted by Sughayyer

KOtR was and is one of my favorite creatures. However, in this meta full of removal spells he does *nothing* if he doesn't untap, and he can't protect itself very well (the sejiri steppe stuff is terrible, I tried, liked it in the first 2 days then hated it). Lingering souls has a direct impact on the board, renders opposing lilianas useless (nullifying the first 2 abilities) and has the option of being recast.
That said, a lot of time we need BIG beaters. That's when tarmogoyf comes in.

Now I'm thinking.... if we run tarmogoyf (big guy, good vs combo and closes the life gap between us and the opponents) and lingering souls, couldn't we cut smf and leave, say, a jitte and a sword (or 2 jittes) in the deck? I don't think we'd miss batterskull. We could go 3 shaman, 4 bob, 3 goyf, 3 knight, 3 souls, 3 equipments and 2 gsz.
I'm also tempted to run hymn to tourach maindeck again. Reasoning: a few months back, I'd rather choose a card that would make a difference against my deck to take away. Now all decks I see have A LOT of things that are troublesome... so a hymn will never take away "meh" stuff... I'll also check the old thread to get some ideas.

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Heh here's the maindeck of a build I've been idly fiddling around with. I've been playing other decks right now in my local Legacy tournament, so I haven't actually put this one to the test yet, but I may sooner or later.

I call it "All the Good Things" Junk.

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [U] Bayou
3 [B] Scrubland
1 [5E] Swamp (1)
2 [R] Savannah
3 [MPR] Wasteland
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [M13] Forest (3)
2 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [JGC] Maze of Ith
1 [LG] Karakas

// Creatures
4 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
3 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
2 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
2 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [DKA] Lingering Souls
2 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil

Maybe +1 Tarmogoyf, -1 Knight can make the mana curve slightly better, but I really wanted to have KoTR against the Show & Tell decks. With only 21 mana producing lands, it may also be correct to cut the Maze, but I figured since I'm going greedy anyways, I might as well just leave it as is for now. Plus, I still have 2 GSZ to help accelerate some.

Currently, I actually prefer Tops over Sylvan because although Sylvan is amazing, I'd rather all together avoid the whole Abrupt Decay problem on my library manipulation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kich867

I'd probably move batterskull to the board and bring SOFAF in instead, and cut a Stoneforge Mystic. You only ever really want to see one, and they're just fetching an equipment for your better beaters.

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As someone who plays 4 SFM + 1 Batterskull + 1 Jitte maindeck, I can assure you that I almost never only want to see 1x SFM for the entire game. I generally want to see 3, often times all 4, during the course of a game. Obviously, the other cards in my hand will dictate what I want, but in most cases, when I open with 2x SFM and 1cc discard and/or spot removal, I get a warm fuzzy feeling inside.