[Deck] Goblins

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Originally Posted by Annatar

Honestly, the idea is littered with all kinds of wrong. You can't really compete speed-wise with Merfolk's lord package. Whereas most of their lords cost two mana, almost all of our lords cost three. Merfolk could afford to run that kind of setup (lots of lords with no "card advantage" engine whatsoever) because it had access to free counters, or at least very effectively costed ones.
If you take out Goblin Ringleader and the rest of the tutor package you have practically no incentive to play Goblins over Merfolk, or any other aggro deck for that matter. The pay-off of such a thing is as close to non-existent as you can get since this wouldn't improve any particular matchup but would just make the deck worse in general.

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Merfolk was viable when it had mostly 3 mana lords.

Don't forget that we have efficient creatures like Goblin Guide, Lavamancer and Loyalist. We also have semi two mana lords in Goblin Wardriver and that kicker +1/+0 goblin with haste. We can also run Lavamancers without any trouble. Cards like Goblin Guide are creatures that Merfolks simply doesn't have any access to.

A guide, piledriver/wardriver, chieftain/king/auntie are a really fast clock surely when combined with burn. Also opposing creatures would simply be burned or removed with Path to Exile.

The lord plan will only kick in after turn three, we use other cards the first few turns.

There is no way that Merfolk could ever compete with our reach. We can pack the same amount of removal as a Zoo deck, while still reaching critical mass with lord just like they do.

/edit: concern the way the meta game is developing.. I'd be happy if Vial Gobvantage would even be tier 3.

/redit2: It's also not as if Wizards hasn't been printing any good goblins cards as of late.. the problem is that they don't fit into vial variants.

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Originally Posted by Avatara

Merfolk was viable when it had mostly 3 mana lords.

Don't forget that we have efficient creatures like Goblin Guide, Lavamancer and Loyalist. We also have semi two mana lords in Goblin Wardriver and that kicker +1/+0 goblin with haste. We can also run Lavamancers without any trouble. Cards like Goblin Guide are creatures that Merfolks simply doesn't have any access to.

A guide, piledriver/wardriver, chieftain/king/auntie are a really fast clock surely when combined with burn. Also opposing creatures would simply be burned or removed with Path to Exile.

The lord plan will only kick in after turn three, we use other cards the first few turns.

There is no way that Merfolk could ever compete with our reach. We can pack the same amount of removal as a Zoo deck, while still reaching critical mass with lord just like they do.

/edit: concern the way the meta game is developing.. I'd be happy if Vial Gobvantage would even be tier 3.

/redit2: It's also not as if Wizards hasn't been printing any good goblins cards as of late.. the problem is that they don't fit into vial variants.

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I think you should post a decklist instead of arguing about a theoretical list. What you are proposing is radical enough to warrant a decklist before it can be seriously discussed.

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Originally Posted by Avatara

Merfolk was viable when it had mostly 3 mana lords.

Don't forget that we have efficient creatures like Goblin Guide, Lavamancer and Loyalist. We also have semi two mana lords in Goblin Wardriver and that kicker +1/+0 goblin with haste. We can also run Lavamancers without any trouble. Cards like Goblin Guide are creatures that Merfolks simply doesn't have any access to.

A guide, piledriver/wardriver, chieftain/king/auntie are a really fast clock surely when combined with burn. Also opposing creatures would simply be burned or removed with Path to Exile.

The lord plan will only kick in after turn three, we use other cards the first few turns.

There is no way that Merfolk could ever compete with our reach. We can pack the same amount of removal as a Zoo deck, while still reaching critical mass with lord just like they do.

/edit: concern the way the meta game is developing.. I'd be happy if Vial Gobvantage would even be tier 3.

/redit2: It's also not as if Wizards hasn't been printing any good goblins cards as of late.. the problem is that they don't fit into vial variants.

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Honestly this looks more like a Modern goblin list, sans the piledrivers and matrons of course. Goblin Grenades would be better here too, I guess.

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

I think you should post a decklist instead of arguing about a theoretical list. What you are proposing is radical enough to warrant a decklist before it can be seriously discussed.

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Ok here's a rough list:

4 Goblin Guide
3 Legion Loyalist
4 Goblin Wardriver
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Mogg Warmarshal
4 Goblin Chieftain
3 Goblin King
3 Mad Auntie

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
1 Goblin Grenade
3 Lightning Helix

2 Mountain
4 Badlands
4 Plateau
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire

Sideboard:
4 Rest in Piece
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I hope that this can start some discussion and yes it does look like a Modern Goblins list. Vial Goblins is a very narrow list and maybe thinking outside the box every once in a while will do it some good.

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Originally Posted by Avatara

Ok here's a rough list:

4 Goblin Guide
3 Legion Loyalist
4 Goblin Wardriver
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Mogg Warmarshal
4 Goblin Chieftain
3 Goblin King
3 Mad Auntie

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
1 Goblin Grenade
3 Lightning Helix

2 Mountain
4 Badlands
4 Plateau
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire

Sideboard:
4 Rest in Piece
...

I hope that this can start some discussion and yes it does look like a Modern Goblins list. Vial Goblins is a very narrow list and maybe thinking outside the box every once in a while will do it some good.

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Challenge accepted! It is indeed a VERY rough list. I like your concept, but you have almost no card advantage in your list. I can understand the reasoning to drop Vial, but no Lackey? No Instigator? No Ringleader or Matron? And something very important in a format were free counters are played: Why do you not play Caverns???? If they counter your first threat, you are in troubles. Could you explain a bit more your choises and the reasoning behind them?

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Originally Posted by Avatara

list.

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I'm a fan of goblin burn, and have assembled some over time, so here are my advices:
- Play 4 lackey. T1 lackey is a great play on this deck too. specially if you follow it with something like: T2 Guide, Bolt your dude, drop chieftain.
- Swap Helix for Searing Blaze. It is an awesome card.
- Goblin King is actually quite bad. Even Warchief seems better, allowing you to play Piledriver and Chieftain/Wardriver on the next turn. It also enable some T3 kills with lackey.
- 4 Paths are not needed. You can burn most creatures nowadays. If you really want them, run 2-3, and the rest on the SB.
- The deck should not need C.A., much like burn.
- Grenade it's the tits, but maybe 1-3 is the correct number.

Good luck on the concept =]

Edit: Caverns does not sound all that good there, specially with only 18 lands. There are quite a lot of non-goblin cards there, and lots of times you need to play more than 1 at a turn.

im just wondering but is this deck's gameplan against combo to race it or side things like cabal therapy and thalia against combo?

both gameplans are valid. It depends on your build as well. If you're going mono-red it might be better to race.

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Originally Posted by Darklingske

Challenge accepted! It is indeed a VERY rough list. I like your concept, but you have almost no card advantage in your list. I can understand the reasoning to drop Vial, but no Lackey? No Instigator? No Ringleader or Matron? And something very important in a format were free counters are played: Why do you not play Caverns???? If they counter your first threat, you are in troubles. Could you explain a bit more your choises and the reasoning behind them?

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That's more like my suggestion

4 Tarfire
4 L bolt
4 lackey
2 instigator
3 mwm
2 piledriver
1 tsh
1 stingscourger
3 gempalm
3 warchief
2 chieftain
4 matron
4 ringleader
1 krenko
2 sgc

4 caverns
16 mountains

SB as before on previous page

eg dropped 3 vials and 1 stingscourger for 4 bolts for extra reach, but still mainly standard cards in list.

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Originally Posted by orcanmail

That's more like my suggestion

4 Tarfire
4 L bolt
4 lackey
2 instigator
3 mwm
2 piledriver
1 tsh
1 stingscourger
3 gempalm
3 warchief
2 chieftain
4 matron
4 ringleader
1 krenko
2 sgc

4 caverns
16 mountains

SB as before on previous page

eg dropped 3 vials and 1 stingscourger for 4 bolts for extra reach, but still mainly standard cards in list.

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do not run tarfire or mwm. This deck's plan is on the aggro plan and mwm is a bit slow

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Originally Posted by goblinsplayer

do not run tarfire or mwm. This deck's plan is on the aggro plan and mwm is a bit slow

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Tarfire is matronable and needed v stoneforge, deathrite, delvers etc, MWM is synergy with chieftain, gempalm, krenko, sgc, piledriver. Do not underestimate MWM!

hi to everybody!

I'm sorry for my bad english;

I play only this deck, and this is my list:


4x aether vial
4x goblin lackey
4x goblin warchief
4x goblin piledriver
4x goblin ringleader
4x goblin matron
(This is the heart of the deck, the untouchables, remove one of these is sub-optimal)

3x tarfire: Is fast instant, tutorable, synergic with the deck, kills more problems.
2x pyrokinesis: it's dangerous for disavantage card, versus aggro deck is powerful, versus JUND/elves/affinity ecc.. is god.

2x warren istigator: synergic with ringleader and matron
2x goblin chieftain: with the warren most important for the race, with krenko is a bomb

1x goblin incinerator: vantage card, incounterable, but too much slow for the current metagame
1x tuktuk Scrapper: for destroy jitte and others artifact
1x stingscourger: for the big creatures, to take time

1x legion loyalist: with the piledriver
1x siege gang commander: a bomb
1x krenko: incredible strong, with the chieftain is wrong.


(22) Land:

4x cavern of souls
4x wasteland
4x rishadans port
6x fetch
3x mountain
1x taiga

side:

3x krosan grip: with splits seconds, resolve more problems, fundamental
4x chalice of the void: is strong versus elves, burn, reanimator ecc.., and COMBO
4x relic of progenitus: cemetery hate, most powerful in this metagame
4x thorn of Amethyst: strong versus combo



I apologize for my English:tongue:

hey guys, do you think that Phantasmal Image (with Cavern of Souls ans Aether Vial) is a good answer for the matches against Sneak and Show / Omnitell? Because of the Legendary rule we could shut down Griselbrand, Emrakul, Progenitus... etc

what else can we do against a Turn 1 oder 2 Emrakul? The only other card that comes to my mind is Red Elemental Blast, but then we should not play a turn 1 vial or lackey to leave the mana open.

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Originally Posted by aequi

hey guys, do you think that Phantasmal Image (with Cavern of Souls ans Aether Vial) is a good answer for the matches against Sneak and Show / Omnitell? Because of the Legendary rule we could shut down Griselbrand, Emrakul, Progenitus... etc

what else can we do against a Turn 1 oder 2 Emrakul? The only other card that comes to my mind is Red Elemental Blast, but then we should not play a turn 1 vial or lackey to leave the mana open.

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This brings up an interesting ruling, that if an opponent play Show and Tell and puts in Emrakul and you put in Phantasmal Image, the Image cannot enter as a copy of the Emrakul because they are entering at the "Same Time". This makes Image a pretty bad card for us. Phyrexian Metamorph seems like a more realistically castable version of this card, and even that isn't what we're looking for in that match.

I'm not sure there's really a good solution to SnT without splashing a color.

My solution is to splash white for Oblivion Ring, which is both castable and able to be put in off of SnT. It also allows us to tap out, unlike REB, although that card isn't totally out of the question if your meta has lots of combo.

Confusion in the Ranks and Stingscourger answer part of the puzzle each, but yeah, Oblivion Ring is the card that answers both.

On the note of sideboarding, I just spend several hours testing the Punishing Jund match, and even with 3 RIP coming in from the board it seemed pretty unfavorable. My idea for a solution is Blood Moon, because Punishing Jund plays zero basic land.

Has anyone ever boarded Blood Moon in Goblins before? What experiences(positive or negative) have you had with it?

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Originally Posted by 1337erhosen

On the note of sideboarding, I just spend several hours testing the Punishing Jund match, and even with 3 RIP coming in from the board it seemed pretty unfavorable. My idea for a solution is Blood Moon, because Punishing Jund plays zero basic land.

Has anyone ever boarded Blood Moon in Goblins before? What experiences(positive or negative) have you had with it?

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Boarding Moons vs BGx decks is a risky thing to do.
While it may be true that some Punishing Jund lists don't play any basiclands, most other BGx decks do. On top of that they usually have a playset of Deathrite Shaman, which ensures manafixing. So, Blood Moon is way less effective (I might say in-effective in some cases) if they may keep their DRS. Another card that is potentially problematic to your mana-denial-via-Blood-Moon-plan is Abrupt Decay. I'm not saying that you should absolutely avoid playing Moons agains Jund-ish decks, but you have to take care of those cards, because otherwise you will invest 3 mana (and probably a whole turn) to change nothing about your board-state. I think your best bet against the Punishing-Grove engine would be an extraction-effect (Surgical Extraction / Extirpate). I used to run Sulfuric Vortex against Punishing Maverick, but that was, of course, before Return to Ravnica.

My SB is going to be:

3x RiP
3x Thalia
4x PKinesis
6x Other stuff I haven't thought of yet

My meta is Elves, Dredge, Stoneblade, Junk, ANT, MBC, and some other things.

Blood Moon doesn't really do as much as you wanted to, especially if you factor Deathrite Shaman into the equation. A much more reasonable sideboard choice might be Relic of Progenitus. A well aimed relic can really put a damper into many of that deck's important cards:

Deathrite Shaman - If they by any chance target your graveyard you can always exile the card in question to fizzle his ability.
Tarmogoyf - Shrinks him down to a managable size and you can use it to kill of a "wounded" one.
Punishing Fire - If you start working on their graveyard early enough they might get one reuse out of the card at best. Even then, they would need at least two groves to help get it back. This isn't as easy as it looks if you factor in that we are already playing playsets of Wasteland and Rishadan Port.
Life from the Loam - Not much needs to be said here, but it is worth mentioning that this card suffers a lot of splash damage off of Relic of Progenitus in this or any matchup in which those two cards mesh against each other.

Finally, even if they by any chance destroy the Relic via Abrupt Decay, you can still get a cantrip and a mass graveyard nuke out of it. Also, if they are destroying your Relics that usually means that they are leaving your AEther Vial well enough alone, which leaves you with enough of an opening to harass their mana base with Wasteland and Rishadan Port.

I don't think this is a perfect strategy by any means, but it does save up quite a lot of sideboard space that you might otherwise have to devote specifically to the matchup. Relic is already a good card against RUG, Lands, TEPS (debatable), Dredge etc. so it stands to reason that you are playing it in some numbers already.

Do you really need 4 Pyrokinesis?

I think that those 6 slots should be evenly split on anti-storm (chalices) and anti-artifact Krosan Grip/Ancient Grudges.