Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
princeofperasia
I've been curious about Keranos though. Perhaps it could help if you manage to find 5 mana. I've seen some people, like ThoSha and Truckis, play a singleton in the board. How has it been working for you? Do you bring it in vs DnT?
I talked about it before a few pages back, but only got miserable answers comparing it to Razormane Masticore and the 3rd Entreat.
As i wrote, i like it alot vs decks that lead to grindy games, where i need a house that shoots Planeswalker and creatures EVERY turn if you want to.
It helps alot vs Shardless BUG and the mirror, where i never really liked the 3rd Entreat and i haven't looked back since i swapped the SB Entreat for Keranos.
Recently i also found it is reasonable to bring him in against Death and Taxes, because you don't need much setup to crush them after a boardwipe.
One thing you should do if you play Keranos is to add a basic Mountain somewhere in your 75, as you really need to rely on red.
Switching a Volc for a Mountain works fine for me, as it also allows me to play 4 Blasts postboard. I really recommend it.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
klaus
4 MD CBs more often than not seemed overkill to me, since its performance is meh especially when drawing multiples against Vial.dec or archetypes with few CMC1 spells (don't get me wrong CB is still awesome) - hence, I'm really happy with the 3/1 split.
In MUs you want CB (or RiP), you want it NOW, not next turn. I've had my fair share of E.T. SBs and was NEVER happy about its card disadvantage aspect. If you want more consistency and see your SB cards more frequently, add more of the same hate spell or take Einherjer's route and go with 4 Ponders. I'm not on the 4 Ponders train (2 is the perfect number for me), but I'd much rather bump them up to the full playset before considering E. T.
Let me first agree on some of your points: Yes, I'm on the 2 Ponder train like you, and I have no intention to get off this train.
As to the E.T. vs 4th CB. In MU you want CB, a lot of them are combos. However, you don't always want to expose yourself when you play CB too early. Hence, I don't see the card disadvantage as an issue, because you are not going to want to play CB or E.T. at that point anyway.
The only time I would want to play CB and the card disadvantage can be an issue is the loam match-up. Even then, E.T.'s so-called card disadvantage can be a plus, if you already have CB in play and no Top. Being able to instant search the correct CMC in respond to the CB flip trigger is something you can be happy about.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Hi, i am fairly new to playing miracles. Just realized my meta has a few merfolk and goblins decks. I always felt swarmed by their creatures even after plows and terminus. Is there any strategy when it comes to approaching such matchups?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mike1987
Hi, i am fairly new to playing miracles. Just realized my meta has a few merfolk and goblins decks. I always felt swarmed by their creatures even after plows and terminus. Is there any strategy when it comes to approaching such matchups?
First of all, against tribal decks, Ein's list (the one with Ponders) will do better. Against Goblins, you have to immediately Entreat after a Terminus/Verdict. You cannot allow Goblins too many turns to "rebuild" after a mass removal. Both decks can have trappy/tricky SB: I have seen TNN, Standstill, and Flusterstorm from Merfolk; Thalia, Labyrinth, and Anarchy from Goblin. Some Vial deck players would activate-vial as a fake move, I guess they're trying to make you draw Top.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mike1987
Hi, i am fairly new to playing miracles. Just realized my meta has a few merfolk and goblins decks. I always felt swarmed by their creatures even after plows and terminus. Is there any strategy when it comes to approaching such matchups?
They're hard matchups for sure since your counters are soft to Cavern of Souls. Focus on stopping Aether Vial and survive long enough to start generating card advantage through Jace or set up an entreat that can swing the board state in your favor. Merfolk is definitely the easier of the two though since you have access to REB and their creatures are generally lords whereas Goblins tend to generate CA (ringleader/matron/etc.) making it more difficult.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Misplayer
I went 6-3-1 at SCG NJ
Shardless 2-1
RUG 1-1-1
RUG 2-0
MUD 2-1
UWR 1-2
Team America 0-2
Aggro Loam 2-1
Deathblade 2-1
Reanimator 2-0
Dredge 0-2
My first RUG opponent was super nice and we chatted too much. UWR opponent won the whole thing - I probably played too loose after he told me he didn't play much legacy and punted game 1 to me. Vs BUG I whiffed on a sweeper G1 and G2 I kept an awful hand and was punished. Dredge wasn't close but I still feel it is a winnable matchup.
In general I think I played well, got lucky a few times (esp R1) but sideboarded terribly especially vs the Delver decks. I also lost to RUG and UWR in the trial the night before. At times I think I play around everything (Daze, Stifle, Pierce, Waste) to my detriment. RUG feels fine because RIP is so powerful against them and Counterbalance locks out all of their threats. I lost to UWR because a fast Delver was able to get me low enough that I had to burn removal on Batterskull for multiple turns, then True-Name came down. I also lost to the triple True-Name draw with Force backup.
I know the conventional wisdom is to take out all your Forces vs Delver, but it feels like in those early turns having a free counterspell is quite good. Force plays around Pierce/Daze more effectively than anything outside of Flusterstorm and doesn't require awkward fetching like REB. I also like being able to set up Counterbalance (they will often let this resolve if ahead on board) and then float a Force to push through a Terminus; this is often a 4-for-1 that ends the game on the spot.
Is Jace good vs UWR when they bring in REB? I suppose if the answer is no then Force is bad for the same reason. Is Entreat good? I've shaved those cards in G2/G3 then found it difficult to put a game away once I've stabilized the board. Meddling Mage is annoying as well.
BUG is completely different as all of their threats get hit by Swords, Deathrite is a slow clock that doesn't require an immediate answer, and their real haymakers are non-creature spells (Library, Null Rod/Needle, Liliana to an extent). I find that I want some number of Forces for these cards too. Maybe keeping in 2x Force here is acceptable as you won't get blown out by REB.
Congrats on your finish! Seems like you won the tough matchups and lost the easy ones unfortunately. I would absolutely board out all 4 FOWs against any of the delver lists. They don't really have any cards that I would want to 1-for-2 myself, especially when our sideboard is so strong. Against UWR and RUG, your main goal is surviving long enough to safely resolve CounterTop. This obviously requires playing around their soft counters or baiting them out by playing 1-for-1 removal into pierces and dazes. Once you have CounterTop online, you have all the time in the world to dig for your win-con so I usually do shave 1 Entreat and 1 Jace. BUG delver, on the other hand, only plays Daze so you can easily play around that knowledge and you should actually bring in the 3rd Entreat. Based on this list from Schönegger I sideboard:
UWR Delver
-4 FOW
-1 Jace
-1 Entreat
+1 Clique
+2 Blast (if you're playing a basic Mountain, then bring in more)
+1 Disenchant
+2 EE
(If you don't think they bring in most of their Meddling Mages then -2 Snares, +2 Fluster)
RUG Delver
-4 FOW
-1 Jace
-1 Entreat
-2 Snare
+2 RIP
+2 EE
+2 Clique
+2 Fluster
BUG Delver
-4 FOW
-3 Counterbalance
+2 EE
+1 Disenchant
+1 Entreat
+1 Counterspell
+X Clique (if they play a lot of Lilianas)
+X Fluster (If they don't play a lot of Lilianas)
+X Blasts (If there's TNN or Jace)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mackan
@Keranos
I started playing him right after BOM in the slot where I played Supreme Verdict earlier. My reasoning was that I needed more against Shardless BUG and having a continous removal/planeswalker-killer/draw-engine on board they can't ever get rid of was appealing. I am convinced that Keranos is the perfect answer to their strategy but im not sure if the 5-mana pricetag is worth it outside that matchup (and therefor if it's worth it in the sideboard at all). I think it's unreliable versus decks with Rishadan Port (but not wasteland) and to slow versus elves. It's nice in the mirror, against delver and to diversify my threats versus random hate. I also like that it can't be Spell Pierced. I am unsure about the number of bombs/wincons we need in the 75. My current configuration is 2 clique, 4 jace, 2 entreat main and 1 keranos, 2 stoneforge, 1 batterskull in the side. My approach to sideboarding is that I want cheap and efficient answers (i.e needle, reb, flusterstorm, wear/tear) or high-impact cards that fill a certain funcion my maindeck does not (i.e Keranos, Batterskull) or both (rest in peace, grafdigger's cage) and I haven't played Keranos enough to see if I can "afford" the value over tempo switch from Supreme Verdict versus the other decks where Verdict is mvp. More discard in the meta also requires more bombs over answers but right now Im happy with this number (no snapcasters, 4 top, 4 brainstorm, 2 ponder).
If you play Venser I recommend trying out Keranos instead. I played both in the daily yesterday but I think that it's to much.
/Marcus (Truckis)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ThoSha
I talked about it before a few pages back, but only got miserable answers comparing it to Razormane Masticore and the 3rd Entreat.
As i wrote, i like it alot vs decks that lead to grindy games, where i need a house that shoots Planeswalker and creatures EVERY turn if you want to.
It helps alot vs Shardless BUG and the mirror, where i never really liked the 3rd Entreat and i haven't looked back since i swapped the SB Entreat for Keranos.
Recently i also found it is reasonable to bring him in against Death and Taxes, because you don't need much setup to crush them after a boardwipe.
One thing you should do if you play Keranos is to add a basic Mountain somewhere in your 75, as you really need to rely on red.
Switching a Volc for a Mountain works fine for me, as it also allows me to play 4 Blasts postboard. I really recommend it.
Thanks for your replies ThoSha and Marcus! I think I'll test out a Keranos, as well as switching a Volcanic to a Mountain. I'm sure Einherjer will show up and tell me that's a terrible idea, but I'm curious how the god plays out :tongue:.
This is off-topic from everything else that's been discussed, but I've been wanting to play a third graveyard hate card (I play two RIP currently). While normal convention dictate that I should play a Relic in the third spot, I've been wondering if a Surgical Extraction would have any merit in the list especially alongside 3 Snapcaster Mages. While it's not as powerful against Dredge, it can still severely slow them down by hitting Narcomoeba or Ichorid. It's also a bit more flexible as you can justify bringing in Surgical against any Combo matchup and maybe against the mirror (to hit FOW or Jace etc.). Obviously it's terrible against any fair match though...
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
princeofperasia
Once you have CounterTop online, you have all the time in the world to dig for your win-con so I usually do shave 1 Entreat and 1 Jace. BUG delver, on the other hand, only plays Daze so you can easily play around that knowledge and you should actually bring in the 3rd Entreat.
I've always preferred Entreat in the American MU over the BUG MU actually. Sure American has more soft counters, but BUG is more likely to be boarding stuff like Envelop, Clique, and Flusterstorm which I think are harder to play around. If you can play around Pierce then it shouldn't be hard to resolve Entreat against American and even two Angels can usually race any board they have since they have no good way of removing them. BUG Delver has more tools for stopping Entreat and more ways of making non-lethal Entreats obsolete with Abrupt Decay and Liliana.
My plan involves boarding in the third Entreat for American Delver and sticking with the two MD Entreats against BUG Delver. I could be wrong about the third Entreat against American, perhaps its better to leave in the Counterspell instead, but I'm certain that going down to one is wrong.
Also, as a side note, I used to bring in Flusterstorms against BUG Delver, but since Miracles has become more popular, most BUG lists are running specific Miracle hate like Clique and Envelop. As a result, I think REB (over Flusterstorm) is usually correct against the average BUG Delver list now.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Some even play 1 Jace in their sideboard, but Clique is indeed very common. So I also side in 2 out of 3 blasts ^^!
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dzra
I've always preferred Entreat in the American MU over the BUG MU actually. Sure American has more soft counters, but BUG is more likely to be boarding stuff like Envelop, Clique, and Flusterstorm which I think are harder to play around. If you can play around Pierce then it shouldn't be hard to resolve Entreat against American and even two Angels can usually race any board they have since they have no good way of removing them. BUG Delver has more tools for stopping Entreat and more ways of making non-lethal Entreats obsolete with Abrupt Decay and Liliana.
My plan involves boarding in the third Entreat for American Delver and sticking with the two MD Entreats against BUG Delver. I could be wrong about the third Entreat against American, perhaps its better to leave in the Counterspell instead, but I'm certain that going down to one is wrong.
Also, as a side note, I used to bring in Flusterstorms against BUG Delver, but since Miracles has become more popular, most BUG lists are running specific Miracle hate like Clique and Envelop. As a result, I think REB (over Flusterstorm) is usually correct against the average BUG Delver list now.
Alright I can see the reasoning for not wanting to bring in the 3rd Entreat against BUG and that might be the better sideboard plan than what I had, but I have a hard time seeing the justification in bringing in the 3rd Entreat against UWR when they play even more countermagic than BUG will have. UWR will have something like 4 Daze, 3-4 FoW, 3-4 Pierces, 2 Flusterstorms which is still a lot more to play around than BUG's 4 Daze, 3-4 FoW, 1 Clique, 1-2 Pierces (or flusters). I haven't seen too many BUG lists that play Envelop in the board.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
princeofperasia
Alright I can see the reasoning for not wanting to bring in the 3rd Entreat against BUG and that might be the better sideboard plan than what I had, but I have a hard time seeing the justification in bringing in the 3rd Entreat against UWR when they play even more countermagic than BUG will have.
Maybe that's right, but remember that American has virtually no way to remove an Angel token. While you may have to play around more counter magic, it's fine to Entreat for only two and that will probably be enough. Against BUG, if you Entreat for less than lethal, you can likely expect an Angel or two to get eaten by Abrupt Decay or Liliana. Also, Counterbalance is very reliable against American and once it's online their Pierces become pretty awful. That said, I've definitely thought about having a Counterspell or Pithing Needle over the third Entreat but Entreat is by no means a bad card against American.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Some great, collaborative discussion in this thread lately. Thanks to all for that.
My issue with going to 3 Entreat, 4 Terminus against Delver decks is that you can open with so many bad hands. e.g. Terminus, Entreat, Brainstorm, Counterbalance, Fetch, Tundra, Plains...is this a keep? Brainstorm says yes, but once they G. Probe you they will Force your Brainstorm and likely win. Resolving a Jace to set up Terminus/Entreat is also very very difficult during the stage of the game when it is most critical.
Turns 1-3 are so critical in the UWR and RUG matchups and Probe gives them an even greater edge. Sequencing your lands, fetches, and spells while weighing the tradeoff of life loss vs playing around conditional counters are essential. (Personally, I also need to get better at recognizing when jamming a Swords into Daze might be correct as a pure tempo play while I set up my mana.) For these reasons, I have thought about reducing the average CMC of the deck in the post-board games against Delver/Wasteland strategies. Venser, Jace, Entreat all get trimmed or cut (this is easier to do if you have won G1). I'm also thinking of going to 3 Counterbalance post-board against RUG and UWR. They are a huge part of your gameplan but you'd rather have removal in the earlier turns of the game. Then find and resolve a Counterbalance mid-game and win.
On grave hate, I have been thinking of Grafdigger's Cage as the third piece like I believe Joe mentioned a few pages back, especially since I have cut EE from the sideboard and slightly weakened the elves matchup. Though I may be overreacting after getting smashed by Dredge.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
@Third entreat
I haven't been playing the third entreat since I moved to sideboard SFM-package but when I did I sided it in versus Delver-decks with black rather than red. The slower clock your opponent has the better it becomes... Against RUG-delver for example Im happy playing 2 and versus jund/team america I want my third for sure.
@Patriot sideboarding
I think you all should consider siding CB out versus Patriot. I wrote about that earlier but can't seem to find the post :(
I remove 4 fow 4 cb 1 jace for blasts, wear/tear, sfm-package and 2 flexslots.
@new tech!
Im going to play without the stoneforge package in this daily and instead trying to push the durdliest of durdle; Future Sight.
Not only is this totally ridiculous with top (and slow as molasses, sure) it's also a way to activate Keranos with only cb/jace/venser/clique. I'll write a summary after im done.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Talking about Tech.. I am currently testing 2 Personal Tutors in the main for more consistent miracles. I also added one Devastation Tide in the side, i'll let you guys know how it worked out.
Edit: It was really bad. Might be good as a 1of tough.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
It's called "tech" now, is it? I would have bet ideas like this were called something else. Hmm.
Greetings
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einherjer
It's called "tech" now, is it? I would have bet ideas like this were called something else. Hmm.
Greetings
At least keranos has some utility. But personal tutor?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
amalek0
At least keranos has some utility. But personal tutor?
I' m not an arse licker but I can't see if there is still room for improvement in the list of this deck.
Keranos cost 5 mana and I think is a lot for a winning condition that you have to play it as a sorcery speed( yes you cant miracle eot like entreat).
Jace is way better than the god. We don't need extra removal our deck is well equipped to deal with that.
Changing topic what do you think are miracles hard match ups?
My personal opinion
in order:
12 posts 10/90
goblins 30/70
Sneak & show 40/60
Merfolk 40/60
Jund 45/55
Bug delver(with nemesis and confidants) 50/50
Death and Taxes(with mangara) 50/50
Uwr Delver 55/45
I've found pretty much all other match ups highly favorable my a mile
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
janluis1
Changing topic what do you think are miracles hard match ups?
My personal opinion
in order:
12 posts 10/90 - That even seems optimistic
goblins 30/70 - This becomes 70/30 if you have moat and etutor in your SB
Sneak & show 40/60 - I think its probably closer to 50/50, and maybe even favored for the the "cheater versions" with MD blasts
Merfolk 40/60 - Id say this is closer to 50/50 normally, again Moat and Etutor make it more like 60/40
Jund 45/55 - I think its more like 60/40, I always feel like jund is a good matchup for me
Bug delver(with nemesis and confidants) 50/50 - Depends how devoted their SB is to beating miracles, but 50/50 seems about the average. It can be worse.
Death and Taxes(with mangara) 50/50 - Most builds forgo mangara luckily, the typical D&T lists are probably more like 55/45, Brimaz+karakas is still really scary though
Uwr Delver 55/45
I've found pretty much all other match ups highly favorable my a mile
I added in my comments, but otherwise I agree. Those are definitely the harder matchups. Some other tougher ones are Shardless bug (50/50) and Scapewish (55/45). I have also found Grixis/BURg delver with Pyromancer, Therapys and stifles to be rough.
I have noticed SB blood moon, moat, and humility in conjuncture with 1-2 Etutor make all of those matchups (excpet D&T and delver) much better. If the meta ever shifts to include more of those decks, and less things like delver or D&T where you just need value and consistency, the Etutor package might be worth including again.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
The Sneak & Show matchup varies a lot depending on your build. If you play the legend build with Venser and 2 Karakas, it's a pretty positive matchup in my experience. I wouldn't call it negative with any build really, I would call it an even match at worst.
12post is obviously the worst matchup, but it can be improved with extra Pithing Needles and aggressive mulligans. Tons of counter magic with a quick Entreat or Clique + Karakas is your only hope really.
In other news, I took Ein's maindeck -1 fetch +1 Karakas to the local on Wednesday. I went 3-0-1 and split 1st/2nd (no playoffs, just swiss with top4 payout), my matchups were-
Rw Painter 1-1-1
Ub Reanimator 2-1
5 color Maverick 2-0
Deathblade 2-1
The list feels extremely solid and consistent. I never had a problem digging for answers and wincons, and I assembled CB Top very easily. I've found the extra Ponders to make CB more reliable without a Top online, and they make it easier to find key sideboard cards. If I can make it out to SCG Providence I will definitely be on Miracles.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
12 Post is nearly unwinnable and Goblins is extremely difficult. Merfolk and Burn are both winnable but very much a pain and matchups that I'd rather not see. I feel like just about anything else is even or favorable.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Burn seems fine... we have CB and PoP isn't very good vs. us.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
akatsuki
Burn seems fine... we have CB and PoP isn't very good vs. us.
Against decks like Storm, we have Counterbalance and it wrecks them, but in addition we can easily beat an all-in combo deck with FoW, Flusterstorm, Counterspell, etc. Against Burn, if you don't have Counterbalance and Top then you can't realistically survive for very long only 1-for-1ing them.
If we have Counterbalance and they don't have a Vexing Shusher then we are golden. If we don't have a Counterbalance, we are probably dead. If we have a Counterbalance and they have a Shusher then we are only dead if we can't find removal.
So, just for fun... I did some math. On average, Burn's cards deal ~2.2 damage (assuming things like Goblin Guide only hits once, PoP only hits for 3, and Vortex only hits us twice, etc). Without Counterbalance + Top, Miracles has only about a 23% chance of stopping one of their cards (4 FoW, 2 Pierce, 1 Counterspell, 1 Snapcaster, and 4 Counterbalance (assuming that each Counterbalance blind flips an average of 1.5 times in a game, which is likely generous). Without interaction, it will take Burn an average of 9 cards to kill us. At 10 cards each, we should be able to stop ~2.3 of their cards. That means that at around 12 cards each we should be dead, so around turn 4 or 5.
