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I agree: for months i played with 3 Daze because it's a card you want to see in your first 3-4 turns, but after that it almost always become useless. Before mental Misstep I used to play a 3/3 or 3/2 split of Daze and Spell Pierce with more lords (Sovereign).Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
@tacosnape
Is not including any Llawans a meta call or do you think your board is sufficient for the mirror?
After having autolost to Ensnaring Bridge every time I had to face it (ok, mostly CB decks that might not be out there anymore now) the lack of Echoing Truths seems risky to me...
@all
How do you play against Dredge? After some discussion in my testing group, I'm especially interested in targets for Surgical Extraction. We could try to get their first dredger(s) as soon as possible or react to what seems most threatening at the moment (Narcomoeba/Ichorid/Bridges)...
@ Dismember Disskussion:
As said feew days before, i play 3 Dismember Maindeck and i'm quite happy with it.
I had too often a Situation, where i have enough creatures, but the opponent has a 5/5 Knight out, while i am at 18 life. for 1 colourless and 4 life i often removed those Knights or Tarmogoyfs, Peacekeeper, Dark Confidants, and so on and (c)rushed them.
Still i don't know if 2 or 3 mainboard is the correct number, i will stick with 3...
@ playing against dredge:
i think ( i play dredge and merfolk, but im not experienced) you should target what slows him down most.
if he only have one sort of dredger, removing him COULD be gamewinning. Against bridge you have curscatcher (or, if everything else fails, dismember your own creatures ;-))
I think its not that simple to find the rigth answer to your question. (perhaps because im Noob xD)
@Jona: I don't necessarily feel that the Sovereigns have to be Sovereigns, but I want them to be guys. I'm not comfortable only having 20 guys and 12 lords without a major draw spell(Standstill), and unlike my first week, I actually won a lot of games on the back of Sovereign (He won both Elf games for me, once by being any lord, and once by helping me sneak an alpha swing through).
@Bakofried: Surgical Extraction was actually there for Loam, as we have a Lands player and occasionally people bust in with rogue Loam-Pox lists that completely blank Mental Misstep. I -hate- losing to lands, and Surgical at least gives me an underdog shot in the matchup. There are a lot of matches where you want it over Crypt, too, and a split of yard hate is always harder to disrupt. That said, if I was only gunning for Reanimator, I'd have taken 3 Crypts and run with it, because Extraction not only walks into Mental Misstep, it also gets blanked by Exhume. I'm not advocating 4 yard hate spots in every metagame, don't get me wrong. But in mine, it's worth having.
As for my Spell Pierce boarding, Reanimator's kind of my example. Against Reanimator, you don't need an endless wave of dudes. You need a couple guys and timewalks. So I boarded out 4 Reejereys, 2 Sovereigns, and 2 Coralhelms, and brought in Daze, Pierce, and the yard hate. Having Cursecatcher, Daze, Mental Misstep, Force of Will, Spell Pierce, AND Graveyard hate make your chances of having a godly hand pretty off the chain.
@Floi: Neither case is quite why I didn't run Llawan. It's not really a metagame call (We have other Merfolk players sometimes) and it's not really that I think I can handle the mirror without it, it's that I feel like it's the most narrow of all the spots in the deck. It solves Merfolk and it solves a resolved Progenitus. Whee. I'd rather run more versatile things, especially since opposing Llawans can be Dismembered. Against Merfolk it probably still won't give you time to recover, but against other Llawan-packing control decks, it might. Llawan, however, is one of those cards I'll probably cycle back in and out of my board depending on what I'm afraid of.
As for Echoing Truth versus Bridge, go for it if you expect Bridge. Or if you just want to get through with the alpha strike, run Reality Ripple instead so you can make people who play Batterskull cry.
Any tips on the Deadguy MU?
Wipe Away is better so the opposing player can't counter your bounce.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Wipe Away is not better. Let me rephrase that. As a sideboard card, out of 15, wipe away is not a better choice to use than echoing truth. It is better against slower decks for removing something when you absolutely can't be countered. But I believe Echoing Truth is the greater catch-all which does more for less mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Besides being cute, I really see no advantage whatsoever to Reality Ripple over a bounce spell. But y'all go ahead and run it if you want... (Am I missing something here? I mean, destroying the germ token on Batterskull is marginally better, because then they have to pay to bounce it back to their hand. Is that it, really?)
Are you that worried about Empty the Warren tokens or Bridge from Below tokens?Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
Yes =) and I agree with what the others have posted wipe away is only better if you're playing a super control deck with a hand full of counters and you need the out to peacekeeper/bridge whatever. Every other situation echoing truth is just better and is awesome, even then echoing truth is still very good vs control/threats.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
ripple doesn't, echoing truth is just better in a lot more applications. I'm not familiar with the rule, but wouldn't it just phase back in and get another germ? Even if it doesn't work that way, echoing truth is better.
Are you that worried about getting a 2cc spell countered in a deck that runs 12 main deck counters, 4 creatures that can counter, and sometimes 3-4 additional counters in the sideboard?Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
In what other situation would you ever want a bounce spell anymore? ETW and Bridge aren't all that scary with Misstep in the equation now.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlopeeJ
Echoing's cheaper, though. And probably decent against MUD.
Okay, first off, for you and for DukeDemon, Reality Ripple on a Germ Token makes Batterskull disappear.Quote:
ripple doesn't, echoing truth is just better in a lot more applications. I'm not familiar with the rule, but wouldn't it just phase back in and get another germ? Even if it doesn't work that way, echoing truth is better.
By rules,
1. Any equipment attached to a creature that's phased out phases out indirectly with it.
2. Any creature token that's phased out ceases to exist.
So Batterskull can't phase back in with the Germ token because the Germ token doesn't exist anymore. So Batterskull will be gone forever.
Furthermore, apparently I should have clarified that I was mostly being sarcastic about Reality Ripple / Vodalian Illusionist. I think Echoing's the better card right now. That said, it's worth knowing they exist, should Stoneforge/Batterskull somehow become format defining. And Reality Ripple is neat at protecting your guys from removal, given that you don't have to pay to re-cast them. It's also why Reality Ripple is worse at conventional bounce, as you don't get a chance to counter whatever you bounce, and you pretty much have to do your alpha strike right then.
Local tournament last night, only notable victory was vs. traditional Goblins. Basically just shit lords on him G2 and G3 after a miscalculation in combat math led to an alpha strike at the wrong time in game 1.
.Quote:
In what other situation would you ever want a bounce spell anymore? ETW and Bridge aren't all that scary with Misstep in the equation now
When ever there are 2 of the same threats attacking you? I doubt you have never faced 2 tarmogoyfs before. The phasing rule does seem interesting, I didn't know it worked like that(as I stated). Does seem good vs batterskull. I have lost to the skull being equipped with a sword/jitte also, that seems nuts to get rid of both ahah.
Another thing about the ripple/wipe away it hits lands, which truth cannot. Lands is pretty much gone so I don't think their are any lands now, but could be relevant.
Edit: Been thinking about it, ripple actually does the same thing echoing truth does. Gets rid of the threat for a turn... I have 20-30 man tourney tomorrow and I expect at least 2-3 stoneforge decks I'll give it a try.
Had no idea about the equipment/phasing rule, thanks for the clarification on that one. I was aware you weren't making an uber-serious suggestion (see my Manriki-Gusari response for evidence, lol), but I wasn't aware of that trick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
@your question: As far as bounce spells, I don't know that I'd advocate sideboarding them these days either, I think it mostly depends what decks you're afraid of. But Ensnaring Bridge usually still feels like an auto-scoop to me when it resolves. Moat isn't quite as bad now that we have Commander, and I'm not aware of many decks that still run it. We have Dismember for Llawan and Peacekeeper now, thank Fish-Jeebus, but Bridge is some bullshit if you don't have a counter for it... So I may also actually prefer Wipe Away over Echoing Truth at the moment, no matter how much I prefer Truth in a vacuum (which I do, by a hell of a lot).
As far as what I'd actually run to protect my ass from these things, right now I'm liking 2 Dismember in the main (very likely with a third in the board), 2-3 Spell Pierce in the board, and maybe 1 Wipe Away in the board. Thoughts?
Played a 44 man tournament yesterday, taking second in swiss with no top eight.
Round 1 was against Counterburn Greater Gargadon deck thing. It was 2 game of resolved lords and standstills.
Next was b/g pox. Bobs, Tombstalkers, Goyfs, mental missteps. Game 1 I mulled to five yet managed to run out all four standstills, allowing me to flood the board through pox. Game 2 was a rush to build up a critical lord mass to avoid darkblast dredging. Lords won.
Round 3 was a crushing loss to a zoo that I was paired down to. Batterskull is just.. Ugly.
Round 4 was NO Rug. Game 1 was a race that involved him resolving NO into Pro threatening lethal next turn, while I drew into the lord to have Coralhelm finish it. Game 2 a flurry of counters kept him off development.
Round 5 saw Team America. Game 1 was a loss to 2 7/8 Goyfs. Game 2 was keeping him off card resolution and standstills. Game 3 devolved to a topdeck war, in which cursecatcher was the winner.
Round 6 was against the Energy field deck. Slow, boring games of hand sculpting under energy fields and standstills. Game 1 he had more spells. Games 2 and 3 I resolved more relevant spells and fished him to death.
14 Island
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
3 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Coralhelm Commander
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Merrow Reejery
3 Aether Vial
4 Standstill
3 Daze
1 Dismember
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
SB
3 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Hyrdoblast
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2 Dismember
2 Relic of Progenitus
To clarify, I meant Bridge from Below not being scary with Mental Misstep in existence.Quote:
Originally Posted by DukeDemonKn1ght
The other bridge, Ensnaring Bridge, is still plenty scary.
I board a trio of Spell Pierces. My gut feeling is that I'd probably just attempt to not let one resolve. If I expected it to show up more than once in a blue never, then I'd probably stick a pair of Echoing Truths in the board just to have an out.
Still, it feels like "Don't let it resolve" isn't that bad of a plan when you factor in Force, Daze, and Pierce all trying to keep it off the board. Cursecatcher's a factor in a counterwar here, and Mental Misstep will at least stop Sensei's Divining Tutor or Enlightened Tutor or whatever might go find it, as well as any Spell Pierces or Pyroblasts aimed your way in the counterwar.
As for which the best bounce spell of choice is, I guess it depends on what you want it to be good for on the splash. Wipe Away's uncounterable. Echoing is great against tokens and easy to play. Reality Ripple has the batterskull trick. Repeal draws you a card. Whatever. I'd pick Echoing Truth until I saw a metagame reason to specifically play a different one. It's the most versatile.
Yeah I knew you meant Bridge from Below, I was just mentioning the one card that's still prevalent enough to maybe scare me into running a bounce spell these days... Which also happens to be called "Bridge," d'oh! Although, versus Dredge, I think the consistency of the "just counter their PImp or Tribe" plan is slightly over-rated. Tbh I haven't tested it much recently, but my gut tells me that Dredge got hurt less by Mental Misstep than Storm strategies did. I mean, if they stick a discard outlet against us, they can start abusing it pretty quickly, whereas Storm has to chain together a bunch of spells during one turn, among which one-mana-spells are the most frequent casting cost. Plus, compared to the Storm matchup, Cursecatcher and FoW are less effective overall against Dredge (although obviously, both still pretty good.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
This is why I still pack 3-4 graveyard hate spots in sideboard. I'm never comfortable without yard hate in a board. There's too many decks that abuse the yard. It also helps with the awful matchup that is Lands (Surgical Extraction + Needle makes this workable), and Reanimator's also a tremendously underrated deck right now. Mike Fyrberg's been steamrolling everyone not named me at our local tournaments lately.Quote:
Originally Posted by DukeDemonKn1ght
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by DukeDemonKn1ght
I don't think that there's any way to hate against Firestorm However, countering their other 1cc outlets can slow them down, hopefully long enough to get your hate online.