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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
This is what usually goes through my head when making mull decisions:
For 7 cards
2 lands (at least 1 has to be a fetch) + Top + any 4 as long as no more than one is a Miracle = keep
3 lands (they don't have to be fetches) + Top and/or Ponder/Brainstorm (Ponder preferred if the other 3 are usable on their own i.e. Snap/Jace/CB/FoW/STP/CJ/other cantrips, Brainstorm preferred if at least one is a Miracle card) + any 3 = keep
4+ lands + Top and/or any cantrip + 0≤x≤3 other cards, Miracles included = most likely keeping
I try not to keep any 7 that doesn't meet that criteria. 4+ lands without a Top or cantrip is just asking for trouble, even if one of them is a CB or FoW or other counterspell.
TBH, I don't feel like our decks mull very well, despite our load of card selection, since we're always playing from behind until we can Terminus or counter a key spell. So to go down cards means less resources to be able to turn the tables.
For 6 cards
2 lands (at least 1 has to be a fetch) + Top and/or cantrip + any 3 = keep
3 lands + any 3 as long as no more than 1 is a Miracle card = keep
For 5 cards
Try not to go to 5, but sometimes it needs to be done.
A perfect 5 is 3 lands, and any two of the following, dupes OK: STP, Brainstorm, Ponder, Top
In the event that you don't get a perfect 5, 2 lands + Top or cantrip is snap keep because your 4 isn't going to get any better.
DISCLAIMER: This is not an exact science.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Mm, convincing arguments for sure, thanks for your thoughts everyone. Good to have some discussion going in this thread too!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutthroatCasual
DISCLAIMER: This is not an exact science.
lol, no shit :tongue:
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Yup! Mulligans in our decks are rough IMO so being able to judge what's a fringe keepable hand from a snap mull is crucial.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
How about this one, on draw versus unknown opponent - UWR 4 Ponder version, with 2 mentor (schonegger, cadei).
http://i.imgur.com/idYeVuF.jpg
Keep or Mulligan?
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutthroatCasual
Yup! Mulligans in our decks are rough IMO so being able to judge what's a fringe keepable hand from a snap mull is crucial.
Definitely. I'm still not entirely convinced it's a mull yet, I'm going to try and run this hand through a small gauntlet vs other DtB if I can convince a friend next playtest session.
On another note I went 3-1 at my LGS last night, the first match loss in over a month. The deck is feeling incredibly powerful and streamlined. I was almost set on BUG Delver for GP Prague, but now having second thoughts having played this the last month or so.
Beat a Grixis Delver/Doomsday weird hybrid (Predicted him after DD so he couldn't combo :tongue: ) 2-0
DnT 2-0
BG 'fuckmiracles.dec' with Bob, Lili, Hymn, Bitterblossom, Decays etc. Would have been crushed without Wear//Tear and Mentor as the win con allowing me to go wide very fast. 2-0
Lost to Reanimator 2-0. I think I kept sketchy hands here, but G1 got crushed by double Daze on the play nabbing my FoW for a T2 Griselbrand. G2 was almost under control until a timely Massacre appeared, just after I Cliqued!
I'm beyond convinced on a MD Wear//Tear and I urge everyone else to try it.
List is almost identical to the one I've posted a couple of times, changes since last time are:
MD
+1 Predict - In love with this card!
+1 Spell Pierce - flex slot currently, it could be anything.
-2 Spell Snare - Wasn't too convinced with these last time.
SB
+1 Wear//Tear
+1 Flusterstorm - 15th card, it could be a 3rd Sugrical as the lands matchup is pretty bad without Jace.
-2 Blood Moon - Minniehajj has convinced me on these.
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Monastery Mentor
4 Ponder
4 Terminus
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
3 Predict
2 Counterspell
1 Wear//Tear
1 Spell Pierce
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
1 Plains
SB:
2 Wear//Tear
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Flusterstorm
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Izzet Staticaster
1 Cavern of Souls
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stefanogs
How about this one, on draw versus unknown opponent - UWR 4 Ponder version, with 2 mentor (schonegger, cadei).
Keep or Mulligan?
I think this is a much, much easier mulligan than the one before, despite being on the draw. No FoW, no SDT...and you can't cast anything. You're completely at the mercy of the top of your deck.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stefanogs
How about this one, on draw versus unknown opponent - UWR 4 Ponder version, with 2 mentor (schonegger, cadei).
http://i.imgur.com/idYeVuF.jpg
Keep or Mulligan?
Gone. Disgusting hand =P
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stefanogs
How about this one, on draw versus unknown opponent - UWR 4 Ponder version, with 2 mentor (schonegger, cadei).
http://i.imgur.com/idYeVuF.jpg
Keep or Mulligan?
Very definitely a Mulligan, there's no playable cards AND no cantrips.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dissection
Words....
Glad my reasoning got to someone! =P. How has the low land count and cavern performed for you? I've considered playing the one maindeck W//T in the past, but I can't justify a card to cut, nor have I really been wanting of that effect in my main deck.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Minniehajj
Glad my reasoning got to someone! =P. How has the low land count and cavern performed for you? I've considered playing the one maindeck W//T in the past, but I can't justify a card to cut, nor have I really been wanting of that effect in my main deck.
The low land count has been fine so far, even in the face of mana denial strategies. When I first put this together I was sure 19 lands was too greedy, but when it's come to the games it's not been a problem. I think this is because the build requires fewer lands to function at full force. I'm thinking of going down to 3 Islands to make room for a 10th fetch, think it makes sense here. There's no Jace or Entreat to need lands drops after 4 or 5, I tend to win games with about 5 lands in play. This just makes the cantrips and SDT that much more powerful as you have more gas to draw.
The Cavern was MD before, but I found myself needing a third Tundra often, that was too greedy! Though I think the Cavern warrants a SB slot as it's so good in the mirror.
This build is very weak to CotV, a lot more so than everyone elses. It's a pretty big concern and the MD Wear//Tear is a concession to that. Our 'answer' to artifacts and enchantments G1 is usually FoW and Counterspell, but having access to Wear//Tear plays into the Mentor plan nicely as you can use countermagic incredibly aggressively to protect it.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I'm somebody who doesn't play Miracles, but I want to proxy it up to practice against/with it in my playgroup. (Everybody seems to want more practice vs Miracles).
Is this list: http://www.mtgmintcard.com/articles/...-a-new-miracle The best place to start with for a 'stock' list?
I've also been looking around this thread and eyeing the non-mentors lists with 2 Entreats/4 Termius. Would this be a better starting point for a test-against list?
Legends Miracles seems to be the least popular, so I don't think I should bother with that version of the deck.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dissection
My initial instinct would probably be to keep, but then I tend to be rather greedy in mulligan decisions. Mostly out of fear of what my 6 might look like.
When evaluating an initial hand take these risks into consideration:
Probability of a 6 card hand containing at least one miracle (assuming 6 miracles in deck): 48%
Probability of a 6 card hand containing at least one crap card (assuming 6 miracles + 2 Jaces): 59%
Probability of a 6 card hand containing at least two crap cards (assuming 6 miracles + 2 Jaces): 18%
As a rule of thumb, think of a potential 6 card hand as a 5½ card hand, which ,in a vacuum, is better than the known 5 card hand. Furthermore the 5 known cards aren't great. This suggest a mulligan as the best option.
More risks to take into account:
Probability of a 6 card hand having 0 or 1 lands (assuming 21 lands): 31% [including scry (sample size =7): 22%]
Probability of a 6 card hand having 0 blue lands (assuming 18 blue lands/fetches): 10% [including scry: 7%]
Probability of a 6 card hand having 0 cantrips (assuming 4top+4BS+2Ponder): 32% [including scry: 26%]
Of course those probabilities can't just be summarized, but ideally they all need to be "avoided". The probability of a hand with 0 or 1 land is pretty scary. Especially combined with the chance to get a cantrip. Remember that hitting a cantrip becomes more likely the fewer lands you have. I may have to revise my mulligan decision process.. :rolleyes:
Used this calculator:
http://stattrek.com/online-calculato...geometric.aspx
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jaytron
I'm somebody who doesn't play Miracles, but I want to proxy it up to practice against/with it in my playgroup. (Everybody seems to want more practice vs Miracles).
Is this list:
http://www.mtgmintcard.com/articles/...-a-new-miracle The best place to start with for a 'stock' list?
I've also been looking around this thread and eyeing the non-mentors lists with 2 Entreats/4 Termius. Would this be a better starting point for a test-against list?
Legends Miracles seems to be the least popular, so I don't think I should bother with that version of the deck.
Exactly how I started playing the deck again :) I became the designated 'miracles player' for our test group and ended up enjoying it quite a lot.
Something like this may be a good place to start as something pretty 'stock'.
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Ponder
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
SBs vary quite a lot, but usually they'll have something like
2 Surgical/RiP
3 REB effects
2 Wear//Tear
0-2 Staticaster
x Canonist, Containment Priest, Meddling Mage
0-2 Blood Moon
0-2 Mentor
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dissection
Exactly how I started playing the deck again :) I became the designated 'miracles player' for our test group and ended up enjoying it quite a lot.
Something like this may be a good place to start as something pretty 'stock'.
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Ponder
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
SBs vary quite a lot, but usually they'll have something like
2 Surgical/RiP
3 REB effects
2 Wear//Tear
0-2 Staticaster
x Canonist, Containment Priest, Meddling Mage
0-2 Blood Moon
0-2 Mentor
Thanks for the list!
So you're telling me I'm walking a dangerous edge here. I could fall over to the dark side (become the guy playing miracles).
I have almost everything in paper, outside of the Tundras which are cheap-ish. :X
EDIT: I can probably fit 3 decks on 1.. I'll probably take this list, one with mentors main, and maybe something else? I guess I can squeeze legends in there?
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ozimek
More risks to take into account:
Probability of a 6 card hand having 0 or 1 lands (assuming 21 lands): 31% [including scry (sample size =7): 22%]
Probability of a 6 card hand having 0 blue lands (assuming 18 blue lands/fetches): 10% [including scry: 7%]
Probability of a 6 card hand having 0 cantrips (assuming 4top+4BS+2Ponder): 32% [including scry: 26%]
Of course those probabilities can't just be summarized, but ideally they all need to be "avoided". The probability of a hand with 0 or 1 land is pretty scary. Especially combined with the chance to get a cantrip. Remember that hitting a cantrip becomes more likely the fewer lands you have. I may have to revise my mulligan decision process.. :rolleyes:
Used this calculator:
http://stattrek.com/online-calculato...geometric.aspx
The 22%, 7%, and 26% are the only meaningful numbers.
The "Probability of a 6 card hand having 0 or 1 lands (assuming 21 lands)" is not the correct question to calculate. Rather, you should calculate the probability of 6 card hand opening having 0 lands. Then, you do 1 minus that probability to get the probability of having 1 or more lands. As in,
[60, 7 (include scry), 21, 0 (in a 6 cards + scry opening, no land was seen)] = about 4%. In other words, 96% you would have 1 or more lands. Does that make sense or am I totally off?
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
The 22%, 7%, and 26% are the only meaningful numbers.
The "Probability of a 6 card hand having 0 or 1 lands (assuming 21 lands)" is not the correct question to calculate. Rather, you should calculate the probability of 6 card hand opening having 0 lands. Then, you do 1 minus that probability to get the probability of having 1 or more lands. As in,
[60, 7 (include scry), 21, 0 (in a 6 cards + scry opening, no land was seen)] = about 4%. In other words, 96% you would have 1 or more lands. Does that make sense or am I totally off?
Yeah, but you're on play... if the land is on top you will mulligan again. So you can't include scry.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutthroatCasual
That is a most beautiful monstrosity. Obviously this is metagamed for Eldrazi, but would there be major % point losses in other matchups?
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
With Chalice being more popular than ever, perhaps it's time to revisit Unexpectedly absent. Being an instant, it would render Warping Wail useless, works better if your list runs 3 Snapcasters. Of course, that respond-to-fetchland play is possible again.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
The 22%, 7%, and 26% are the only meaningful numbers.
The "Probability of a 6 card hand having 0 or 1 lands (assuming 21 lands)" is not the correct question to calculate. Rather, you should calculate the probability of 6 card hand opening having 0 lands. Then, you do 1 minus that probability to get the probability of having 1 or more lands. As in,
[60, 7 (include scry), 21, 0 (in a 6 cards + scry opening, no land was seen)] = about 4%. In other words, 96% you would have 1 or more lands. Does that make sense or am I totally off?
I'm getting the same number directly from the calculator. If you put in [60, 21, 7, 1] you can read all the needed results below.
x<1 = no lands
x>= 1 = one or more lands (96%)
etc..
The reason for looking at 0 or 1 lands combined is that both situations are pretty much a downgrade from the example initial hand, barring ideal one-landers.
Stefanogs had a good point regarding the scry.
Putting in [54, 20, 1, 1] we see that the chance to see a land on the scry is 37% if you have a one-land 6'er. By upping the sample size to 2, the chance increases to ~61% in the top two cards (i.e. you scry a non-land to the bottom and draw card number two from the top). Not 100% sure the second calculation is correct, but it should be close enough.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
With Chalice being more popular than ever, perhaps it's time to revisit
Unexpectedly absent. Being an instant, it would render Warping Wail useless, works better if your list runs 3 Snapcasters. Of course, that respond-to-fetchland play is possible again.
I have to say, it plays nice with Predict. Put a card on top of its owner's library and predict it away...
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jaytron
Thanks for the list!
So you're telling me I'm walking a dangerous edge here. I could fall over to the dark side (become the guy playing miracles).
I have almost everything in paper, outside of the Tundras which are cheap-ish. :X
EDIT: I can probably fit 3 decks on 1.. I'll probably take this list, one with mentors main, and maybe something else? I guess I can squeeze legends in there?
Indeed! A very dangerous path.
Because of the velocity and digging power of the deck 'small' changes have a much bigger effect on how builds play out than normal, so yes you can definitely put together a few different styles with minimal effort. It's worth the time for your group to test vs Mentor in the MD, in the SB, with Entreat or without etc. These different configurations will definitely require different SBing plans. Learning how to best guess what to expect from the SB is really worth nailing down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
prepare4robots
I have to say, it plays nice with Predict. Put a card on top of its owner's library and predict it away...
Cute interaction, but having WW spells require two plains, which a lot of predict lists have been leading away from. If you're playing Entreat as well as a couple Predict, then maybe.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dissection
Cute interaction, but having WW spells require two plains, which a lot of predict lists have been leading away from. If you're playing Entreat as well as a couple Predict, then maybe.
If you want something cute with Predict, and WW is a problem, Set Adrift is probably more up your alley =P
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Minniehajj
If you want something cute with Predict, and WW is a problem, Set Adrift is probably more up your alley =P
I was watching you guys stream with that a month or so ago actually, it's a spicy one! My only complaints are sorcery speed, messes with Snapcaster and close to uncastable in the first few turns. Wear//Tear deals with almost everything annoying anyway while Snaps pester Jaces and Lilis.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dissection
I was watching you guys stream with that a month or so ago actually, it's a spicy one! My only complaints are sorcery speed, messes with Snapcaster and close to uncastable in the first few turns. Wear//Tear deals with almost everything annoying anyway while Snaps pester Jaces and Lilis.
I am not the strongest advocate of it of course =P. I personally had issues with the card, many of which you listed above. But since we're listing nonsense cards anyway =P.
In any case, it's possible that the card or things like Unexpectedly Absent are viable options, but I'd rather play something like CJ (if you have access to double plains) or MD w//t as you have been, in this scenario.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Hello Miracles players! Lurker here. Looking forward to commenting and reading awesome posts from all you control junkies. :)
Quick question if I can. How do people here feel about supreme verdict in the sideboard right now? Does it make sense if Mentor is main deck? Also, what about Venser? Thanks! :tongue:
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Verdict/no Verdict is all preference. I used to play it, but personally I think it's too slow. There are few metas where it's good, but even in those metas I wouldn't pick it over something else (that may or may not do a similar thing.)
We're really good against creature decks already.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutthroatCasual
Verdict/no Verdict is all preference. I used to play it, but personally I think it's too slow. There are few metas where it's good, but even in those metas I wouldn't pick it over something else (that may or may not do a similar thing.)
We're really good against creature decks already.
Well..., you could count Goblins, Merfolk, and Eldrazi as creature decks, DnT to certain extent. They all run tons of creatures. Hence, a blanket statement really good against creature decks seems vague to me.
There's nothing slow about Verdict, unless you are comparing it against instant speed Terminus, in that context.
Pro:
1. get pass all counters
2. easier to flashback than Terminus
3. requires no floating on top of library to setup
4. not vulnerable to opponent responding to miracles trigger (clique away, deny fetch for White mana source).
5. another CMC 4 to float for CB, if you suspect opponent will cast Jace, Sneak Attack....
Con:
1. difficult to cast against decks running Port, i.e. DnT
2. sorcery speed, dead card against Lands
3. requires Double White source, some Miracles builds have issue producing it.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
Well..., you could count Goblins, Merfolk, and Eldrazi as creature decks, DnT to certain extent. They all run tons of creatures. Hence, a blanket statement really good against creature decks seems vague to me.
There's nothing slow about Verdict, unless you are comparing it against instant speed Terminus, in that context.
4 mana = cast on turn 4 or later vs Terminus, which can be cast from turn 2 under the right circumstances.
Pro:
1. get pass all counters
2. easier to flashback than Terminus
3. requires no floating on top of library to setup
4. not vulnerable to opponent responding to miracles trigger (clique away, deny fetch for White mana source).
5. another CMC 4 to float for CB, if you suspect opponent will cast Jace, Sneak Attack....
Con:
1. difficult to cast against decks running Port, i.e. DnT
2. sorcery speed, dead card against Lands
3. requires Double White source, some Miracles builds have issue producing it.
4. Does not deal with indestructible creatures (and in theory regeneration, which doesn't exist)
5. Vulnerable to discard, although the same floating that is needed to set up Terminus, could also protect SV from sorcery speed discard.
Ironically the uncounterability is great vs blue aggro-control (i.e. Delvers) but they also tend to play mana denial making 1WWU a huge liability.
The number of Warping Veils in the meta might be very determining for the viability of Supreme Verdict.
On a related note I've seen a few Envelops in sideboards, and now a strict upgrade will become available: Invasive Surgery.
How does Invasive Surgery interact with Supreme Verdict? I suppose the delirium part will take place even though the spell can't be countered? Not a huge deal, since SV will likely be a one-off, so this will mostly be relevant for snap->flashback and information for the opponent. On second thought SV is on the stack when IS resolves, and thus it can't be exiled?
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ozimek
Ironically the uncounterability is great vs blue aggro-control (i.e. Delvers) but they also tend to play mana denial making 1WWU a huge liability.
The number of Warping Veils in the meta might be very determining for the viability of Supreme Verdict.
On a related note I've seen a few Envelops in sideboards, and now a strict upgrade will become available: Invasive Surgery.
How does Invasive Surgery interact with Supreme Verdict? I suppose the delirium part will take place even though the spell can't be countered? Not a huge deal, since SV will likely be a one-off, so this will mostly be relevant for snap->flashback and information for the opponent. On second thought SV is on the stack when IS resolves, and thus it can't be exiled?
I thought red font is for admin. Anyway, why would you want to cast Terminus on turn 2? Empty Goblin tokens? Must kill asap creature like Dark Confidant? It's rare to cast it on turn 2 or turn 3 without setup, even if you happen to draw it, I am not even sure you should just intuitively fire off.
Indestructible? Isn't that what StP is for? If your opponent is putting Blightsteel into play, I feel you have a bigger problem like Chalice on 1. Boros Charm is mostly Modern, nop, don't see how this would matter.
Rulings
4/8/2016 Invasive Surgery’s delirium ability isn’t checked until after the sorcery spell has been countered. If that spell is put into your graveyard, it will be counted.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Re: Supreme Verdict
Terminus is often better than Supreme Verdict, but we allready play 4.
I want to add to the list of pros/cons.
Supreme Verdict actually kill all of their creatures and not just put them back in their deck. This can sometimes be a minor downside i.e graveyard-candy for Gurmag Angler, Tasigur, Tarmogoyf, Deathrite Shaman, Eternal Witness etc but also re-buy of your own creatures. Most of the time it's a very good permanent answer to decks with GSZ or Shardless Agent for example. In matchups where the games tend to go on for many turns this is very relevant and our superior filtering with cantrips is negated by a Jund deck drawing gas every turn. To clarify; Putting creatures on the bottom of their library is canceled after a fetchland activation or a green sun's zenith.
Supreme Verdict is a blue pitch-card to FoW. This is huge in some matchups (like the mirror) as you don't want to die to Monastery Mentor but the cards that answers him are terrible in the CB/Jace battle. Supreme Verdict is sometimes worse against ETA but beeing uncounterable, un-cliqueable and blue makes up for it imo. Venser still gets you but we can't have everything.
In other matchups you want to have a pitch-card for their turn1 chalice of the void or Aether Vial in which case Supreme Verdict beeing a 4drop sometimes is the correct card to pitch. Consider a scenario where you have a hand of Fow, Supreme Verdict, Stoneforge mystic, Ponder and lands. If your Eldrazi Opponent cast turn 1 Grim Monolith into turn 2 Endbringer then Fow pitch SV is great and Stoneforge can (maybe) go the distance. If on the other hand your opponent lead with a bunch of creatures you can save it for later. Miracles is often the reactive deck in a match but it's important to identify that you sometimes can be the aggressor in which case Force of Will is a great tempo card. For these scenarios you don't want a sweeper which makes Supreme Verdict a perfect card to have around. Another example is Merfolk. I gladly trade any 2 cards in hand to stop their COTV on 1 or to get Batterskull going.
The "con" of Supreme Verdict beeing harder to cast due to the WW in it's casting cost is correct but not allways relevant. The upside of beeing immune to flusterstorm, spell pierce, daze, envelop and vendilion clique (sometimes, depending on when it's cast ofc) makes up for it imo. It's often OK to go Island, Plains, Island, Tundra->Supreme Verdict and have Tundra Wastelanded. Wasteland is still annoying but very much less so if there is no creature on the other side of the table. The more creatures in play on the other side the better obviously SV gets. It's still great if they play only 1-2 creatures and sandbag a bunch of disruption because then you can try to set up CB/top and KNOW that you will kill their board turn4. This is a very different tactical advantage compared to terminus/stp because more often than not it's correct to kill the creature right away as you don't know how many turns you have to turn the tables. It's not unheard of that your opponent let your CB resolve and save their countermagic for Terminus, in which case you just win on the spot. Or your opponent put an extra treath on the board on their "final" turn to play around STP and save the FoW for terminus.
One minor thing when comparing Supreme Verdict to Terminus is that it's less relitant on Brainstorm to set up. This is important in matchups vs Eldrazi and Merfolk because of Chalice of the Void. Brainstorm is probably the best card in our deck but stressing it even further is a recipe for disaster. Supreme Verdict becomes better compared to Terminus the worse your filtering gets. And it will get worse. Even though Ponder is a great card I often side two of them out just because of how devastating COTV is.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
How are you guys handling games against Eldrazi?
Have been struggling quite a bit against them. Am considering:
1) Playing 1-2 Wear/Tear main
2) Moving back to a 2x Entreat version
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
G1 is a nightmare. I don't think it gets much better whether you MD W/T or not. G2 and 3 gets better because of W/T in your SB + Mentor if you have it + Blood Moon + Moat if you can afford one. Any of those is very strong on its own already, even stronger when used together.
I've always maintained that the best Miracles lists run at least 1 ETA. This current meta definitely amplifies that assertion.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KZhang
How are you guys handling games against Eldrazi?
Have been struggling quite a bit against them. Am considering:
1) Playing 1-2 Wear/Tear main
2) Moving back to a 2x Entreat version
One Wear / Tear main is golden, that I can assure you. And by now, probably some other people will, too. I still think the MU stands and falls with Chalice 1, so getting rid of that should be your top priority. Without Chalice you should be able to stall long enough to get your hate (Blood Moon, Moat, etc.) going and lock the game up. If Chalice sticks, you have to to play more aggressive into your hatepieces and lock the game with a Terminus before / after that. Obv, that's a bit harder with your cantrips locked up.
Edit: Cutthroat Casual is right, ETA is at it's best right now. I don't think Mentor is that good, most players have adjusted.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
If you want to md wear // tear you may instead md engineered explosives and even one academy ruins (without karakas and cavern of souls, still with 21 lands) to do it again and again. Explosives kill anything between 0 and 3 cmc.
Anyway, still think that council's is the best generic answer, because you don't need to change your manabase to do it one more time. I don't like md Wear // Tear because it doesn't answer creatures nor planeswalkers...
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KZhang
How are you guys handling games against Eldrazi?
Have been struggling quite a bit against them. Am considering:
1) Playing 1-2 Wear/Tear main
2) Moving back to a 2x Entreat version
Personally, I've gone completely out to left field to play the old RIP/Helm version of the deck, which should in theory be able to lock the Eldrazi out of attacking and be a little more resilient to Chalice@1. I haven't, in practice, actually had the chance to jam any games against the intended target. I can't say whether it really works or not, but the idea seems sound to me.
That is, if playing RIP/Helm can technically be considered "sound" at all, but on this question I care little. I love slamming enchantments, and Enlightened Tutor is a very fun way to control the top card of the library with Counterbalance.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mort-
Edit: Cutthroat Casual is right, ETA is at it's best right now. I don't think Mentor is that good, most players have adjusted.
Mentor is a very strong SB card. I don't believe he's good in the MD though. In G1s, we want to be more controlling since it's the basis of our deck, and he doesn't allow us to do that. Post-board games are when we adjust our strategy. If you want to play Mentor MB, you probably shouldn't be playing Miracles, but rather some sort of Stoneblade/Esper Mentor variant.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
I thought red font is for admin.
Sorry, changed to blue, and will be more disciplined with my quoting going forward. Thanks for pointing that out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
Anyway, why would you want to cast Terminus on turn 2? Empty Goblin tokens? Must kill asap creature like Dark Confidant? It's rare to cast it on turn 2 or turn 3 without setup, even if you happen to draw it, I am not even sure you should just intuitively fire off.
On the draw on turn two you are likely getting a 2 for 1 against aggressive decks. Doesn't come up very often, admittedly. Turn 3 vs. turn 4 is still very significant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
Indestructible? Isn't that what StP is for? If your opponent is putting Blightsteel into play, I feel you have a bigger problem like Chalice on 1. Boros Charm is mostly Modern, nop, don't see how this would matter.
I have taken care of many a Marit Lage token with Terminus. Obv., Terminus is not in the deck after sideboarding vs lands, though. Swords is better in most situations against a single fatty, but if e.g. vs. lands giving them 20 life can be a huge liability if you don't have the Loam engine shut down.
Are you thinking Supreme Verdict is mostly a sideboard card? I have seen maindecks with a 3/1 split, and I would never do that. I might consider it for the SB, but it would compete with Moat for that slot. The price tag on a Moat is a fair concern, of course, but wouldn't Moat be superior in most non-delver situations?
Regarding the discussion of increasing threat density in the opponent's deck with Terminus, I think that is a very minor issue. Our cards (especially the finishers) become much more powerful in the late game, whereas most small creatures become less threatening. Dryad Arbor is extremely pesky though, as it is so easy to bring back with a fetch land.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Hey all, Miracles is a deck I long wanted to build. However, half of our legacy tournaments have 40 minutes/round limit due to time constraints. Is it realistically possible with this deck to consistently finish 2-3 games within this time? I suppose Monastery Mentor build is more suitable in such case?
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Careve
Hey all, Miracles is a deck I long wanted to build. However, half of our legacy tournaments have 40 minutes/round limit due to time constraints. Is it realistically possible with this deck to consistently finish 2-3 games within this time? I suppose Monastery Mentor build is more suitable in such case?
We run 45 minute rounds. I've drawn matches two times in the last six months.
I actually find it to be beneficial, as the less amount of time make you focus on being quick. Also, it means you actually have to pay attention to your opponent, and as such, you can (politely) ask them to speed up, if they are taking an unreasonable amount of time.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Careve
Hey all, Miracles is a deck I long wanted to build. However, half of our legacy tournaments have 40 minutes/round limit due to time constraints. Is it realistically possible with this deck to consistently finish 2-3 games within this time? I suppose Monastery Mentor build is more suitable in such case?
You could also consider the plan of winning a long game 1, and not having time to finish game 2.
I've been playing RIP/Helm, and there are a number of free wins you can get with this version that can also speed play considerably. It's so weird compared to the normal Miracles, though, that I'm not sure they should really be discussed in the same thread.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
hi all, have picked up again miracles after some time and wanted to try the legend build. I have played the following list yesterday in a game night and won against painter 2-0, the mirror 2-0 and lost to BUG shardless 2-1. Shardless was a tight game but lost as he completely destroyed my hand on the draw in the final game with t1 thoughtseize, t2 hymm, t3 liliana, and then shardless goyf etc. My starting hand was flooded strand, volcanic, island, 2x stp, 1 brainstorm, counterspell and flooded in the first three draws. I am quite happy with the build but would appreciate some inputs. I am not sure about the 2nd ETA and the manabase (I have cut cavern as it can really shine in some instances but overall I think it makes the mana a bit awkward I added one fetch more instead of a plains or 5th island as I find it is important to have another way to shuffle without ponder).
Main
2 Arid Mesa
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Flooded Strand
4 Force of Will
4 Island
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Karakas
1 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
3 Tundra
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Volcanic Island
Sideboard
1 Containment Priest
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Flusterstorm
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Moat
1 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Rest in Peace
2 Wear // Tear
