[Deck] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

I was hesitant about probe, but now I love it. It opens up a thousand subtle lines of play. The most powerful being, Fetch, Probe decide to hold up stifle or jam delver. Which when done blind, can be huge. And it always draws a card/reduces the number of cards in your deck. It is a sorcery for goyf. I think it makes 1x sideboard cards at least a small margain better. I don't think I will be going back to not playing it, unless stifle starts to get bad, but if the metagame is not good for stifle, I don't think I would probably be playing UWR with TNNs.

There was also some talk about Sylvan library. I don't think I would ever want sylvan in the md in an unknown meta. To make sylvan library better than Mirri's Guile (and noone is really suggesting running Mirri's guile), you need to draw at least one card, and the more cards you can draw with it, the better. To me, that makes it a suboptimal card in the MUs where you are racing or your life total really matters. In the mirror or against a control deck where you can pay 8-12 life, it can be amazing, but not md material. With probe leading me to already pay ~4-6 life per game, sylvan library is probably going to be too taxing for me to justify even a SB slot anymore.

I've never been a huge fan of Spell Snare Either. It's the non creatures that really get you, and I think spell pierce usually does a better job at protecting you there.

I run:
4 Delver
4 Geese
4 Goyf
4 Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Probe
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island

SB
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Rough/Tumble
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Flusterstorm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Life from the Loam
2 Submerge

Crypt, extraction, LftL, and 2x submerge are the slots that change the most.

At the moment Snare is just a broken tempo-counterspell and the best "removal" to stoneforge mystic ever printed.
It improves the grindy matchups,which are way harder to win than combodecks like sneakshow.
Postboard the sneakshow mu will get so much better, you don't have to worry about a lost g1.



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

I think that additional cantrips/filters above the base eight are redundnat. Yep, GP information are huge, but do they outweight the fact that you have less removal for DRS or less counterspells for SnT/IT? I'm not sure. The only thing that really matters is the Delver/Stifle dilemma. Also, 4-6 dmg count.
Sylvan Library is a powerful yet slow card that works better in slower decks. It doesn't do anything on turn it is played and it just replaces itself on the next turn, unless one may spend some lives. It's CQ engine, no doubts (at least in deck with eight fetches and four Ponders), and it may bring some CA (if there are enough life total), but I still think that I'd play GP/Head Drill before Library... and in fact I'd play additional reach/counterspells.
But I may be wrong, after all, I finished 0:2 drop yesterday, so who am I to blather. :laugh:

And yes, Snare is sick. I will never ever play without one.

One could cut 1 tarmo for library, or play with only 2, as I do,instead of cutting each or counters.

But a completely other thing: do u guys think we still need submerges? I cut 1 going down from 3 to 2 but cannot remember sideing them in much. Sure they are good against some decks, but the last top 4 in my meta were tnn blade x3 and one turbo eldrazi. And all in all the decks against I would side submerge in against seem to get less play. And with 2 more space in sb one could pack additional hate against blade decks

Gesendet von meinem HTC One X+ mit Tapatalk

Am I the only one here that thinks that goose is not that great anymore ? Dunno what to replace it by, but it seems less decisive since rest in peace and tnn...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Blitzkreuz

One could cut 1 tarmo for library, or play with only 2, as I do,instead of cutting each or counters.

But a completely other thing: do u guys think we still need submerges? I cut 1 going down from 3 to 2 but cannot remember sideing them in much. Sure they are good against some decks, but the last top 4 in my meta were tnn blade x3 and one turbo eldrazi. And all in all the decks against I would side submerge in against seem to get less play. And with 2 more space in sb one could pack additional hate against blade decks

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Some guys of our lgs already do it, and I think I'm going to do the same. Goyf decks are on decline and you may still fly over them, while there's no chance how to beat BSkull and such.

I'm considering this list:

Qty Name
// Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
//\\
// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
//\\
// Spells
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire/Ice
1 Forked Bolt
//\\
// Sideboard
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Artifact Mutation
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sulfur Elemental


some notes on card choices:
- lands: pretty self-explanatory. I just hope I'll lay my hands on Chinese lands, at least at Rainforests, as I got my lovely signed (heavy) played Foothills for eight years ever since I returned to MtG. :tongue:
- I won't cut Goyf, neither I will experiment with another creature. TNN is too expensive (both mana-wise and in money terms) and 4/5 Goyf is at least two turns faster... unles they get rid of it, ofc.
- 8 cantrips, and I'm stopping right there. There's nothing to convince me on any of the following: Sylvan Library (slow), GP (hurts and is more usable in greater numbers, but this is a no-go), Mental Note 2.0 (that I always forget the name.. Thought Scour it is!) is situational card of low impact
- the counterspells suite... well, I'm still uncertain about only one Spell Snare. SFM is so annoying, and the opposing Goyfs are not the worst walls ever. And there are other targets, anything from Hymn to IT.
- 4 Bolts, nuff said
- the additional burn. Now the things get strange. I find the secondary burn (or better said: the flex slots) extremely important, and in fact those are slots that might win/lose the particular matchup. More on it later.

Sb:
2 Rough/Tumble (Elves, DnT, Goblins, Mav) Esp. the first two decks are dangerous, very effective againt Thresh and they can be completely blown by Rough. Two pieces
2 Submerge (Mav, Goyf.dec) I'd love to devote three slots, but that's not possible... and maybe not even needed.
1 Krosan Grip (RiP, Counterbalance, equipments, even Omniscience) Although these cards are fast and CB stops cantrips, I still want to have a fighting chance. At cmc3 one KGrip is enough.
1 Ancient Grudge (equipments, CotV, affinity, Ensnaring Meekstone, Defense Grid) Enough said.
1 Artifact Mutation (Batterskull) I guess that five 1/1 Germs and BSK dead should be powerful play
2 Pyroblast (format) I'm not sure on correct number
1 Flusterstorm (Storm) I'd love to play one more, but as long as I'm RUG, I hope to win this. I may cut one Jitte removal, though.
2 Pithing Needle (MoR, Jitte, Vial, Port, JTMS, Lili, Deed, EE) I can't find the correct number. Maybe one is enough?
2 Grafdigger's Cage (Elves, PiF and gravedecks) I used to play withut it, but Dredge started to appear. Also, this one hoses gy-based decks so hard, that it's worthy the slots
1 Sulfur Elemental (DnT) 3/2 flash body for matchups where it may matter: e.g. UW Miracles


I'm esp. concerned about secondary burn.
Fire/Ice is instant and it may tap opposing Goyfs. With cmc2 it isn't the best card against DRS, namely when the elf is supported by Daze. Feeds FoW, too.
Tarfire feeds Goyf and that's about it. But cmc1 and as an instant it shouldn't be overlooked.
Forked Bolt is sorcery (feed the Goyf!) Fire that might remove turn1 DRS or kill two elves. It's also better against Thalia.
Chain Lightning kills Serra Avenger.
Maindeck Rough beats tribal aggro and it may buy turn against Dredge to fly the Delver FTW. Not to be aimed at head, though.
Dead/Gone is strange card, but it may get rid Tombstalker, Goyf or germ token.
Anything else am I missing?

I absolutely dislike cmc 2 cards in such an elegant deck as canadian ********.
Fire ice is one of them: why spending2 Mana to get rid of an stoneforge mystic if you can just chain,dismember it AND lay down a delver on turn 2 ?




- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sawatarix

I absolutely dislike cmc 2 cards in such an elegant deck as canadian ********.
Fire ice is one of them: why spending2 Mana to get rid of an stoneforge mystic if you can just chain,dismember it AND lay down a delver on turn 2 ?

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Because you can do more things with it:
- killing two x/1 weenies instead of just one (great vs DnT - which is one on the toughest matchups - Elves and others)
- tapping some big creature (+ cantripping) to get that final swing past it (I won so many games this way)
- pitching to FoW
- you could also tap some land on opponent's upkeep to improve the mana denial plan, but that happens rarely nowadays
...all in one card.

All in all, I still consider Fire // Ice the best extra-burn Canadian can play: it absolutely fits the deck's playstile, strategy, versatility AND elegance.

So I have developed a build of RUG that I consider to be pretty good in the current True-Name metagame. If you aren't aware, the effect True-Name Nemesis is having on the meta is that all mid-range blue decks are built around True-Name Nemesis because it is the ultimate mid range trump. However, this creates a hole in the meta game for decks that can survive mid-range assault and trump T-NN with an even bigger end game, Jund Depths is the perfect example of this. The traditional build of RUG Delver we have all been playing (12 creatures, Stifle) is not very effective in this metagame. Stifle and Wasteland is not enough to keep our opponents from resolving True-Name Nemesis if they want to and Nimble Mongoose does not attack effectively into T-NN. The slower decks that can trump T-NN are built to survive Stifle/Wasteland/Daze so these aren't good matchups for traditional RUG Delver either. So with these things in mind, here is what I am running now:

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanics Island
1 Island
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
2 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis/Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preodain

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember

3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

SB:
3 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Submerge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sulfur Elemental

2 Mongoose: We just can't have our hands clogged up with unthreshed Mongeese that can't attack through T-NN. 2 Mongoose is really good since sometimes we need another 1-drop to apply pressure or adding 3/3 shroud for G to the board can just be pretty good. Losing 2 Mongeese is certainly an issue for the traditional RUG build in the mirror, but the traditional RUG build is not good enough for the current meta.

-0 Stifle, 3 Spell Snare: Stifling opponents to keep them off mana while attacking with Nimble Mongoose just doesn't work anymore as I discussed above. The good news is that Spell Snare actually does something and that trading 1 mana for 2 is great tempo.

-2 T-NN/Clique: We do need another threat that can attack through T-NN and Clique and/or T-NN are our only real options. I am not really sure if Clique or True-Name is better at this point. Clique flies over Moat and can be played at instant speed but is bad against the Karakas and is more fragile. T-NN has more protection and punches through better, but the sorcery speed of T-NN isn't great but isn't a huge problem(the card is our late game and usually tapping out for it the late game after playing the rest of our hand is usually fine). It's a pretty close decision and running one of each has been fine as well for me.

-1 Island, 2 Preordain: The extra Island is important for playing our 3 drops. Less non-blue spells in the deck make it better, it also gives something to help with the tradional RUG mirror. I am running Preordain over Gitaxian Probe or anything else because it is important to prevent ourselves from flooding with the extra mana as well as ensuring we can get to 3 mana to cast our 3 drops. Although, Gitaxian Probe is great for telling you when to hold up Spell Snare.

I have been having lots of success in the 2 man-queue on MODO with this list. I started with Patriot Delver list and cut Stoneforge Mystic for Tarmogoyf and Swords to Plowshares for Dismember and Spell Snare. It became apparent another one drop was needed so put Mongoose back in and it works very well as a 2-of. I think my build is way better than Patriot Delver, Stoneforge Mystic is slow and clunky and Swords to Plowshares is antithetical to getting your opponent to zero. I only run 19 Lands, I run Spell Snare and have 3 more instants to flip Delver of Secrets with. I know that Mongoose is the sacred cow, but there are real problems with the traditional RUG build in the current meta. If you are in a scrubby meta that hasn't adapted to True-Name Nemesis, I don't really care about your opinion.

@BKclassic and all: If TNN is really that warping, and if there really isn't time to wait until Mongoose grows, is Jace's Phantasm (and the appripriate md setting) viable? It would need Head Drill, though, or maybe rather Vision Charm and... Phyrexian Dreadnought.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

@BKclassic and all: If TNN is really that warping, and if there really isn't time to wait until Mongoose grows, is Jace's Phantasm (and the appripriate md setting) viable? It would need Head Drill, though, or maybe rather Vision Charm and... Phyrexian Dreadnought.

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No.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BKclassic

So I have developed a build of RUG that I consider to be pretty good in the current True-Name metagame. If you aren't aware, the effect True-Name Nemesis is having on the meta is that all mid-range blue decks are built around True-Name Nemesis because it is the ultimate mid range trump. However, this creates a hole in the meta game for decks that can survive mid-range assault and trump T-NN with an even bigger end game, Jund Depths is the perfect example of this. The traditional build of RUG Delver we have all been playing (12 creatures, Stifle) is not very effective in this metagame. Stifle and Wasteland is not enough to keep our opponents from resolving True-Name Nemesis if they want to and Nimble Mongoose does not attack effectively into T-NN. The slower decks that can trump T-NN are built to survive Stifle/Wasteland/Daze so these aren't good matchups for traditional RUG Delver either. So with these things in mind, here is what I am running now:

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanics Island
1 Island
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
2 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis/Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preodain

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember

3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

SB:
3 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Submerge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sulfur Elemental

2 Mongoose: We just can't have our hands clogged up with unthreshed Mongeese that can't attack through T-NN. 2 Mongoose is really good since sometimes we need another 1-drop to apply pressure or adding 3/3 shroud for G to the board can just be pretty good. Losing 2 Mongeese is certainly an issue for the traditional RUG build in the mirror, but the traditional RUG build is not good enough for the current meta.

-0 Stifle, 3 Spell Snare: Stifling opponents to keep them off mana while attacking with Nimble Mongoose just doesn't work anymore as I discussed above. The good news is that Spell Snare actually does something and that trading 1 mana for 2 is great tempo.

-2 T-NN/Clique: We do need another threat that can attack through T-NN and Clique and/or T-NN are our only real options. I am not really sure if Clique or True-Name is better at this point. Clique flies over Moat and can be played at instant speed but is bad against the Karakas and is more fragile. T-NN has more protection and punches through better, but the sorcery speed of T-NN isn't great but isn't a huge problem(the card is our late game and usually tapping out for it the late game after playing the rest of our hand is usually fine). It's a pretty close decision and running one of each has been fine as well for me.

-1 Island, 2 Preordain: The extra Island is important for playing our 3 drops. Less non-blue spells in the deck make it better, it also gives something to help with the tradional RUG mirror. I am running Preordain over Gitaxian Probe or anything else because it is important to prevent ourselves from flooding with the extra mana as well as ensuring we can get to 3 mana to cast our 3 drops. Although, Gitaxian Probe is great for telling you when to hold up Spell Snare.

I have been having lots of success in the 2 man-queue on MODO with this list. I started with Patriot Delver list and cut Stoneforge Mystic for Tarmogoyf and Swords to Plowshares for Dismember and Spell Snare. It became apparent another one drop was needed so put Mongoose back in and it works very well as a 2-of. I think my build is way better than Patriot Delver, Stoneforge Mystic is slow and clunky and Swords to Plowshares is antithetical to getting your opponent to zero. I only run 19 Lands, I run Spell Snare and have 3 more instants to flip Delver of Secrets with. I know that Mongoose is the sacred cow, but there are real problems with the traditional RUG build in the current meta. If you are in a scrubby meta that hasn't adapted to True-Name Nemesis, I don't really care about your opinion.

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TNN doesn't work well with Wasteland and I don't see how this list should get grip of TNN or top it if you reduce cost efficient creatures for additional cantrips and 3cc cards which conflict with your Tempo plan and Dazes

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

TNN doesn't work well with Wasteland and I don't see how this list should get grip of TNN or top it if you reduce cost efficient creatures for additional cantrips and 3cc cards which conflict with your Tempo plan and Dazes

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I don't know what to tell you dude, Patriot Delver already runs Daze Wasteland and TNN and is a good deck. Cost efficient creatures are only good if they can actually attack your opponent and Mongoose simply doesn't get the job done anymore. TNN is merely our late game, there is no need to rush it out as soon as possible. Do you actually play any RUG? It doesn't seem like you've played Nimble Mongoose against that Bertoncini style Deathblade too much.

It is true that I am suggesting changes that take RUG Delver from being a pure tempo deck. TNN has warped the meta away from where a pure tempo deck is viable. My build is simply a more tempo orientated version of the Patriot Delver deck. It's possible I should label my build "Next Level RUG" and post it in a separate thread, but the RUG Delver builds we've been playing no longer cut it, and some changes are going to have to happen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BKclassic

I don't know what to tell you dude, Patriot Delver already runs Daze Wasteland and TNN and is a good deck. Cost efficient creatures are only good if they can actually attack your opponent and Mongoose simply doesn't get the job done anymore. TNN is merely our late game, there is no need to rush it out as soon as possible. Do you actually play any RUG? It doesn't seem like you've played Nimble Mongoose against that Bertoncini style Deathblade too much.

It is true that I am suggesting changes that take RUG Delver from being a pure tempo deck. TNN has warped the meta away from where a pure tempo deck is viable. My build is simply a more tempo orientated version of the Patriot Delver deck. It's possible I should label my build "Next Level RUG" and post it in a separate thread, but the RUG Delver builds we've been playing no longer cut it, and some changes are going to have to happen.

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You miss that UWR Delver is more of a midrange deck than tempo, using it's Dazes different than typical tempo decks and dismissed Stifle in the process as you can't really profit from a potential tempo gain in the first 3 turns. TNN + Bolts won't beat TNN + SFM in the showdown and you also miss the effect on Mongeese-shrout against Lightning Bolts, Punishing Fire and Swords to Plowshares.

I don't either know what your problem is with Mongeese in the Deathblade matchup. Dealing with their SFM and mana is the deciding point, not if you run Goose or Goyf.

Please google the term "Next Level" in regards to MTG. Cutting Stifle to add more Cantrips and counter isn't "next level" Your list offers nothing to sidestep or trump UWR, nor does the list have really anything in common, starting with only having half the removal nor any gamebreakers like equipment. I can't fit an increased number of cantrips to "a more tempo orientated version of the Patriot Delver deck" either.

If you really want to "next level" RUG Delver in the mirror and against other Delver decks I suggest radical approaches like Punishing Fire to break Tarmogoyf staredowns and shooting down opposing Delver, DRS, Confidant, SFM, Planeswalker, etc. (not saying this is brilliant or the way to go, just an example of "next leveling")

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

You miss that UWR Delver is more of a midrange deck than tempo, using it's Dazes different than typical tempo decks and dismissed Stifle in the process as you can't really profit from a potential tempo gain in the first 3 turns. TNN + Bolts won't beat TNN + SFM in the showdown and you also miss the effect on Mongeese-shrout against Lightning Bolts, Punishing Fire and Swords to Plowshares.

TNN + Goyf + Geese + Spell Snare + Ancient Grudge + Life from the Loam will absolutely beat them if you are the more competent pilot. The best part is countering Rest in Peace with Spell Snare. Our own True-Name Nemesis have protection from target player which includes the things you mentioned.

I don't either know what your problem is with Mongeese in the Deathblade matchup. Dealing with their SFM and mana is the deciding point, not if you run Goose or Goyf.

If we want to be able to finish off opponents, we need to be able to kill them through True-Name Nemesis. The crux of the issue is that once True-Name Nemesis enters the battlefield it can easily neutralize our combination of Nimble Mongoose and Tarmogoyf/Nimble Mongoose (they just block the goose and then chump block goyf/goose), this is just crushing in the late game when you are running out of cards. We need to minimize our threats that can't punch through a True-Name Nemesis. Also note that I do run 2 Nimble Mongoose and I that am typically just as pleased to draw them as I am not to be flooded by them.

Please google the term "Next Level" in regards to MTG. Cutting Stifle to add more Cantrips and counter isn't "next level" Your list offers nothing to sidestep or trump UWR, nor does the list have really anything in common, starting with only having half the removal nor any gamebreakers like equipment. I can't fit an increased number of cantrips to "a more tempo orientated version of the Patriot Delver deck" either.

The origins of "Next Level" is Next Level Blue the extended deck by Patrick Chapin, but it basically just means a mostly blue deck playing Tarmogoyfs that isn't built purely for tempo. http://www.starcitygames.com/article...evel-Blue.html

There's a thread right here on the source for it: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ext+level+blue

If you really want to "next level" RUG Delver in the mirror and against other Delver decks I suggest radical approaches like Punishing Fire to break Tarmogoyf staredowns and shooting down opposing Delver, DRS, Confidant, SFM, Planeswalker, etc. (not saying this is brilliant or the way to go, just an example of "next leveling")

The difference between you and me here is that I am giving suggestions that are actually useful to people trying to win magic games. Anyone who has attempted to play traditional RUG Delver against the current metagame decks will recognize that the deck is not positioned like it once was. I will say that you may be right that Preordain should just be Gitaxian Probe. In truth, I use Gitaxian Probe when I play online, but the biggest way I seem to lose games is by flooding to much on one resource or not being able to get enough of another, and Preordain seems like the best card to rectify that.

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@BKclassic

Why cut mongeese before tarmogoyfs? To me it seems like Mongeese untargetability is more important than ever against the TNN decks that are using either swords or abrupt decay. Goyf can't attack or block a TNN either.

I think you hugely underestimate stifle too. If you are cutting stifle because it supposedly does not interact with TNN, why would you replace it with spell snare, which litterally does not interact with TNN or any of the counterspells that would be protecting TNN. At least Stifle, can stall TNN, and potentially mana screw them, and makes daze/spell pierce better fighting a TNN counterwar. Also, both stifle and spell pierce counter RIP.

You also say that trading 1 mana for 2 mana is a good tempo boost, but stifle can eat up a ton more than 2 mana and more time when stifling a germ token, fetchland, jitte/sword trigger. Stifle can still counter the search trigger on SFM.



I think that in general, if you are going to try and take a step away from tempo, it is better to just move into UWR, esper, or BUG TNN decks that will have access to better positioned removal spells like edicts and -x/-x effects. The reason to stay in red is that our removal spells can go to the head and speed up the clock. If you are not trying to kill as quickly as possible, I would just take the better removal suites offered by the other colors.

In battling TNN/Batterskull decks (and more), I'd like to suggest once more the inclusion of 2x Ensnare in SBs, particularly if players are considering cutting some number of Submerge. Similar, but not identical, it would serve best as a deciding blow, saving ourselves damage while opening up the ground against non-green decks.

Nonetheless, I do not suggest a full replacement. With BUG on the rise, and Elves still a contender, it would be in poor mind to eliminate Submerge entirely.

It seems like the problem with ensare would be that you basically need to be in a situation where you are going to make a lethal attack very soon after resolving it. In the case of batterskull, that might not really be in the cards depending on how many turns bs has been on board.

It seems to me that it is better to just fight the batterskull with artifact removal out of the side.

It seems like it would be better in something like the mirror than against patriot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BKclassic

stuff

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1) Lol ... I don't see how Geese, Goofy, LftL and Ancient Grudge beat SFM + TNN + RIP + Equipment. To hint at 2 TNN if they have 8 removal for your Delver and Goofies is a joke of an argument

2) you talk about "killing through TNN, still your list does not offer cards to do so other than Delver, Bolts and 2 TNN. You also miss that Jitte and Batterskull can spoil your soup too

3) I know about the Origin, but that's not what I was talking about. I said you might google for what the term "next level" stands in chapins deck Design overall and it's not "running Tarmogoyf". It's a term used for "sidestepping or topping the metagame with certain Design choices".

4) you seem to be the only one who thinks Punishing Fire is bad in the current metagame just because it can't handle 1 of dozens of common played creatures. You don't think that killing creatures in the way and push through with Mongeese/Goofy is a valid strategy?

5) I don't have a fucking clue why you think that removing Tempo Elements from a pure Tempo deck but adding cantrips and inferiot lategame options (compared to to Tombstalker or SFM+TNN combo) is next leveling the metagame and might deserve an own thread. Imo, this discussion is as productive as the retarded talk about splashing white in Punishing Jund to play the new hatebear...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

If you really want to "next level" RUG Delver in the mirror and against other Delver decks I suggest radical approaches like Punishing Fire to break Tarmogoyf staredowns and shooting down opposing Delver, DRS, Confidant, SFM, Planeswalker, etc. (not saying this is brilliant or the way to go, just an example of "next leveling")

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I'm still tinkering with Vexing Thresh, but results are... unsatisfactory. :rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BKclassic

The difference between you and me here is that I am giving suggestions that are actually useful to people trying to win magic games. Anyone who has attempted to play traditional RUG Delver against the current metagame decks will recognize that the deck is not positioned like it once was. I will say that you may be right that Preordain should just be Gitaxian Probe. In truth, I use Gitaxian Probe when I play online, but the biggest way I seem to lose games is by flooding to much on one resource or not being able to get enough of another, and Preordain seems like the best card to rectify that.

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Yeah, i got serious problems to win anything for the last year or so. I'm not sure if it's linked exclusively to TNN (it was pritned when, November?), but I also feel that RUG lost a bit of its power, esp. when there are too many hosers (like RiP, Thalia) and must-counters (SFM->BSkull, Terminus and ok, TNN).
I didn't try your list yet, bu from what I feel, I think Preordain is better than Probe.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by that0neguy

Why cut mongeese before tarmogoyfs? To me it seems like Mongeese untargetability is more important than ever against the TNN decks that are using either swords or abrupt decay. Goyf can't attack or block a TNN either.

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If you go this way, maybe Troll Ascetic could be used instead of Goyf? But I need to admit that it's my pet card, so don't take it too seriously.
Thrun?


Btw, I'd love if people stop using term "next level".


Vexing Thresh it test:

Qty Name
// Lands
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Cephalid Coliseum
//\\
// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Vexing Sphinx
1 Vendilion Clique
//\\
// Spells
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
2 Life from the Loam
//\\
// Sideboard
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Artifact Mutation
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sulfur Elemental


There should be Intuition somewhere in it. Sb is just a port from usual RUG and should be thought out better, I think 2x Jitte should be there, maybe even main. And yes, maybe TNN would be better than Sphinx, and yes, maybe the creature count is low, and yes, only three Wastes and yes, no Mongoose, becasue w/e the reason (bad Jitte carrier?).