Being an engine that isn't reliant on life or graveyard and resilient to counterspells makes the card in my opinion better than Ad Nausem.Quote:
Originally Posted by mishima_kazuya
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Being an engine that isn't reliant on life or graveyard and resilient to counterspells makes the card in my opinion better than Ad Nausem.Quote:
Originally Posted by mishima_kazuya
Why even bother talking about Academy or Mind's Desire? Those cards are never getting unbanned in Legacy. There's not even a 1% chance of it happening.
EDIT: It's almost as dumb as considering Black Lotus a candidate for unbanning.
Academy is never going to be allowed in Legacy. If nothing else, we really, really don't need to make Prison a strong archetype, as strong Prison decks ruin whatever format they happen to be in. They're fine as fringe decks with specific good match-ups, but no one wants to play in a tournament where even a quarter of the field is Prison.
As to Mind's Desire, it's a storm card that's an engine rather than a win condition. If it's not obvious why that shouldn't be allowed, try making a modified High Tide with Tendrils as a win condition and four Mind's Desire. You will change your mind really, really quickly.
If you think it's so dumb, why don't u post a list in which Academy is effectively broken? I've played with and against the cards, the combo decks that were considered "broken" back then would be at best considered on par with belcher nowaday, and we haven't got draw 7 anymore (windfall for the academy era). I bested academy with elves! lots of time, it wasn't favorable, but still, it was an elf deck that won with overrun and Thorn Elemental. Time passes and power creep is a real thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm
Strawmanning with a Black Lotus isn't doing a favor of whatever argument you're trying to have here.
Except that Academy isn't good in prison. Prison problem is having plays the first turns, big mana for big bombs, academy give you mana only if you overload your deck with cheap 0 and 1-cmc artifacts. Which prison don't have much-of, when you try to go for the prison route, with Trinishpere and whatsnot.Quote:
Originally Posted by HPB_Eggo
Academy would be pretty good in Affinity, but in prison is not much better if even than a sol-land, being unable to get you 2 mana consistently in the first two-three turns when you need them the most (i've playtested the card a bunch with the old B&R unban challenge back then, you're welcomed to try better lists as i'm not a good deckbuilder, i've played red decks variants for most of the time i played after all). Academy plays a lot like Metalworker, it's a really good mana past midgame when it consistently give you 4+ mana every tap, but you need to reach there to make it as good, and it isn't easy (else Metalworker'd be broken)
Again, i've been hardpressed to think of a reason to keep Academy banned, if not for cost concerns.
As for Desire, i think you'd be surprised to see how often a Desire for 4 or 5 can fizzle. There's also the problem that if you want to go for a lot of fast mana for storm, and then you chain fast mana, you've basically accomplished nothing. Plus you need mana converters 'cause rituals are RB and Desire is UU. And you want draw, and then won't you run permission? If you don't run permission you fold to discard if you run little card draw etc... it's a dog that bites his tail.
Time spiral doesn't have the problem because you use only a card for accelleration, High tide, and then you run lots and lots of library manipulation and draw, making time spiral a 100% chance to go off, with decent permission backup.
One thing is certain, i'd rather 100% play against Desire than SnT, at least i can hate it with lots more cards, Thalia, Gaddock, Pyrostatic Pillar, CotV, Thorn of Amethyst etc...
Academy's strength is in the redundancy of the deck for turn two plays. It's nearly always a cost-less Ancient Tomb on turn two that does nothing but get better as the game continues and will soon no longer be terrible in multiples.
Desire is a card I've run in modified UB High Tide. You really, really don't want to have to deal with a deck that has the consistency of High Tide and the power level and speed of ANT, which is really what ends up happening even with what I would consider a very rough list.
High Tide does not want desire. You can't tutor for it, and you only really want to see it when you're already doing well. It can't replace Time Spiral as sometimes Time Spiral is cast with only a few spells played before hand. It is a very strong card, and I'm sure it'd be good somewhere (...possibly too good), but high tide is not that place. If I'm wrong show me a list.
Academy doesn't need to be in a combo deck to be over powered. Any land that can casually tap for UUU (or more!) with no drawbacks early in the game is way too good. A card doesn't need to make you win on the spot to be bannable.
Again, hyperbolaes everywhere. Are you aware that for Academy to give UUU you need to essentially hit metalcraft? And academy isn't an artifact like Mox Opal. How often you hit metalcraft early game? How often do you hit metalcraft at all? In which decks? MUD never hit metalcraft on T1, very very rarely on T2 (something like, Tomb-> CotV, T2 Opal, Land, Trinisphere), and commonly only from T3 onward.Quote:
Originally Posted by clavio
If getting many artifact into play early on were such a formality Opal would be played everywhere as it a mox that require "just two other artifact into play". Not to say that, again, artifact deck are very easy to hate out. If CotV decks really started to pick up slightly in numbers. Something like a Rack and Ruin, Melt, Shattering Spree, Smash to smithereen, Ancient Grudge, Abolish etc... in your sideboard would good enough, and many decks already run AD.
Slow prison is also pretty much a dog to Midrange, and Jund demolish it.
I think you actually need to hit metalcraft.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gheizen64
Affinity would certainly utilize Academy. I don't know that it catapults it a dangerous level, but I don't like the idea of turn 1: Memnite/Ornithopter x2, Mox Opal, Signal Pest, Tolarian Academy, Etched Champion, Thoughtcast. Turn 2: Plating, equip.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gheizen64
The issue with the unbanning of Academy is that you will then have to ban some artifacts that, up until this point, have never been an issue. The reason being that Academy can just break stuff, because it itself is broken.
I for one do not really want to see cards that are otherwise fine become a thing of the past thanks to just one card.
Really, that's your worst nightmare about Tolarian Academy? Try Ornithopter x2, Mox Opal, Springleaf Drum (or Mox Opal #2, thanks to new rules), Academy, Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas (aka Tezzeret, sees more play than Bolas :P).Quote:
Originally Posted by from Cairo
It's not impossible to swing with a Plated Etched Champion on turn 2 without Academy. I tried running Ancient Tomb and Lotus Petal in the same build, and I goldfished a turn 3 kill against Burn attacking with only a Plated Champ that had Metalcraft the entire game.
Anyway, using a 7-card hand that represents the most extreme and thus unlikely scenario of a card being broken isn't a really supportive argument for why a card would be too good in a deck.
Nope, it's not my worst nightmare it is one possibility that "I don't like the idea of."
But yes turn 1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas is clearly good too. I would imagine said UB Academy powered Affinity deck would be running both Tezz and Plating. I acknowledge that both of these plays are available in current card pool. I wouldn't say that's an excuse to provide these lines more consistently. Regardless I don't see DCI unbanning Academy whether it's broken or not.
Seriously this thread sucks.
People, just stop trolling.. unbanning Tolarian academy?!?!?!? wtf...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0WvJrEuJTk
I don't know how the ball got rolling on unbanning Academy, or Mind's Desire. I was the one who initiated the 234234th iteration of unbannings, but I was only talking about WGD and Memory Jar. Guess I should've seen it coming that talking about unbanning card X ends up being a discussion of unbanning cards A-Z in some way or another.
I forgot about Imperial Seal when thinking of another card almost as safe as unbanning WGD. Is there a reason why that card is still banned? Would it be too good in combo even though it's sorcery speed and doesn't provide any inherent card advantage?
Price even more so than its tutoring ability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawon
Card advantage is overrated in Legacy and Vintage.
This is a deck list i threw together in 4 minutes.
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Mox Opal
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Dimir Signet
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Underground Sea
4 Tolarian Academy
4 Force of Will
4 Trinket Mage
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Trinisphere
4 Mox Diamond
I goldfished 5 times, and had a Trinket Mage into Chalice at 1 Start, an Tomb, Chalice, next Turn academy some artifacts double thirst for knowledge, next turn tezzeret and and trinisphere.
ok, one time i didnt cast anything in the first 2 tunr other than mana. then followed up with big plays. i played with the new rules ofc.
This list is far away from perfect. counterspell for example is nice, perhaps more bombs like wurmcoil.
Those results are to small to say anything. But one Point is clear: With the rigth deckbuiliding , tolarian is easily a land that taps for UU. And that is going to win you games, because it's colored mana without a drawback. Compare it to Ancient Tomb. Sometimes it is going to be a legendary island, and sometimes it's going to cast you the jace by itself.
Forget Tezzeret. Splash green for Crop Rotation, add Time Spirals instead of TfK, and throw some Eldrazi up in that bitch.
Seal is too good for reanimator, combo etc... Think Mystical but on crack, you can't even known what you're playing against.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawon
I'll try this when i have some time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrel
This is the direction I would go with Academy. I'm kinda bored with facing idiots on MWS, so I might be willing to spend more time goldfishing and tweaking a list just for my personal enjoyment.
Quote:
4 [MR] Tree of Tales
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [US] Tolarian Academy
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [UL] Cloud of Faeries
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [M10] Ponder
3 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [M11] Voltaic Key
4 [UL] Grim Monolith
4 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [US] Time Spiral
4 [AL] Force of Will