[Deck] The Rock

i am using top as well again,... abrupt decay is the 1st reason for this, the second beeng that i use MD deeds again (2-off),.... so far i am surprised how good they are right now

i am also trying strangleroot again as i have MD deeds right now, and he is sometimes really good, other times he is just a tiny guy that bites our manabase
i may as well try MD jitte instead of deed, maybe this would work better with a high enough creature count, maybe even running quasali pridemage in the main again could have some merit, as it preemptively answers RIP, so your goyfs and knight wont be tiny for long

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

As someone who plays 4 SFM + 1 Batterskull + 1 Jitte maindeck, I can assure you that I almost never only want to see 1x SFM for the entire game. I generally want to see 3, often times all 4, during the course of a game. Obviously, the other cards in my hand will dictate what I want, but in most cases, when I open with 2x SFM and 1cc discard and/or spot removal, I get a warm fuzzy feeling inside.

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Under what circumstance is seeing all 4 stoneforge mystics even remotely useful?

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Originally Posted by Kich867

Under what circumstance is seeing all 4 stoneforge mystics even remotely useful?

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some will get countered, some will get discarded, or maybe even killed with your batterskull still in your hand,....some other times you need a dude but do not want to shuffle your library, because you will need whats on top more then the equipment.

well long story short, there are way to many scenarios that make it profitable playing more stoneforge mystics and to want to see them all in a game, specially if the game goes long

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Originally Posted by Kich867

Under what circumstance is seeing all 4 stoneforge mystics even remotely useful?

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First usually gets countered as my opponent will not have an opportunity to counter the Batterskull or Jitte should my SFM resolve. Also, postboard, I'm usually maindecking 3 equipment (Batterskull, Jitte, SoFaF), so I need to see AT LEAST 3 SFM, and usually I want 4 as the first SFM will most certainly get countered/killed/discarded; if that occurs, then I've seen 1 SFM (disposed of) and I still want to see the remaining 3 SFM to find my 3 pieces of equipment. I want my equipment to be uncounterable versus blue decks (Esperblade for example), so I'm usually less inclined to cast the equipment spell, I'd much rather cast SFM (while already holding equipment) to run him out of counters, then cast Batterskull freely.

It doesn't sound like you've played with SFM Junk versus grindy decks before. You most definitely never only want to see 1 SFM the entire game versus Esperblade, Jund, Maverick, etc.

That's not really what I asked. I asked in what instance is seeing literally all 4 copies of Stoneforge Mystic useful, not why you want to run 4 in your deck.

I playtest almost exclusively against an esper player. If they're killing your stoneforges or countering them, they're doing it -very- wrong. Stoneforge and then actively trying to use that stoneforge is equally as durdly as what they're trying to do, it applies no pressure. When esper doesn't feel pressured, they'll get a jace down and start going ham on you.

Stoneforge should be no more than a 2-of in this deck, and if your opponents are stupid enough to counter or kill her, you're pretty well set up to win the game anyways, probably through sheer skill gap. Going turn 2 stoneforge into turn 3 batterskull is pretty much the same play they're doing, except they're curving out into a jace and they'll -snap- trade batterskulls with you.

In The Rock, Stoneforge isn't much better than a Squire, and should be looked as more of an equipment slot than not. If you're all-in on the Batterskull plan, I can see running 4 because you don't want Bob to rock your face, but I've never found batterskull to be absolutely essential compared to getting a Jitte or SOFAF down. If your meta is more aggro though, that makes more sense. My meta is heavily combo filled, and Jitte / SOFAF provide faster clocks / more utility.

*note: speaking strictly in terms of the Esper matchup.

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Originally Posted by Kich867

That's not really what I asked. I asked in what instance is seeing literally all 4 copies of Stoneforge Mystic useful, not why you want to run 4 in your deck.

I playtest almost exclusively against an esper player. If they're killing your stoneforges or countering them, they're doing it -very- wrong. Stoneforge and then actively trying to use that stoneforge is equally as durdly as what they're trying to do, it applies no pressure. When esper doesn't feel pressured, they'll get a jace down and start going ham on you.

Stoneforge should be no more than a 2-of in this deck, and if your opponents are stupid enough to counter or kill her, you're pretty well set up to win the game anyways, probably through sheer skill gap. Going turn 2 stoneforge into turn 3 batterskull is pretty much the same play they're doing, except they're curving out into a jace and they'll -snap- trade batterskulls with you.

In The Rock, Stoneforge isn't much better than a Squire, and should be looked as more of an equipment slot than not. If you're all-in on the Batterskull plan, I can see running 4 because you don't want Bob to rock your face, but I've never found batterskull to be absolutely essential compared to getting a Jitte or SOFAF down. If your meta is more aggro though, that makes more sense. My meta is heavily combo filled, and Jitte / SOFAF provide faster clocks / more utility.

*note: speaking strictly in terms of the Esper matchup.

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I guess I don't understand. If you understand why I run 4 in the deck, then how can you not understand why I want to see all 4? This is a very common scenario:

1st SFM gets discarded out of my hand.

2nd SFM resolves, I grab Equipment, but SFM promptly dies before I get to untap; I'm slightly hesitant to cast the Equipment as I don't want it to get countered.

3rd SFM resolves, I grab Equipment, and I get to untap, flashing in Equipment at a beneficial time.

4th SFM resolves, I grab Equipment (if postboard), and I get to untap, flashing in Equipment at a beneficial time.

This is in conjuction with me casting Lingering Souls, Goyfs, Bobs, Liliana of the Veil, Sylvan Library, and other spells that I need to. I play in a super grindy, attrition based meta (Maverick, Jund, RiP Miracles, Esperblade, etc) and I've never, ever, ever wanted to only see 1 SFM throughout the entire game. I don't view SFM as a Squire, but rather as a pseudo-Baneslayer Angel. I've run both builds of The Rock, and in my meta, KotR + GSZ sucks, but SFM + Equipment + Souls is doing very, very well.

EDIT: Care to post your list? I've posted mine twice in the last two pages if you are curious.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

I guess I don't understand. If you understand why I run 4 in the deck, then how can you not understand why I want to see all 4? This is a very common scenario:

1st SFM gets discarded out of my hand.

2nd SFM resolves, I grab Equipment, but SFM promptly dies before I get to untap; I'm slightly hesitant to cast the Equipment as I don't want it to get countered.

3rd SFM resolves, I grab Equipment, and I get to untap, flashing in Equipment at a beneficial time.

4th SFM resolves, I grab Equipment (if postboard), and I get to untap, flashing in Equipment at a beneficial time.

This is in conjuction with me casting Lingering Souls, Goyfs, Bobs, Liliana of the Veil, Sylvan Library, and other spells that I need to. I play in a super grindy, attrition based meta (Maverick, Jund, RiP Miracles, Esperblade, etc) and I've never, ever, ever wanted to only see 1 SFM throughout the entire game. I don't view SFM as a Squire, but rather as a pseudo-Baneslayer Angel. I've run both builds of The Rock, and in my meta, KotR + GSZ sucks, but SFM + Equipment + Souls is doing very, very well.

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No, I understand why you want to run 4 because you want to see one early. It's unlikely you'd ever actually see all 4, and the rest past the first one are largely irrelevant because it's not like you aren't just naturally finding those equipment either between Bob and Library or Top, in your case Library.

You need to apply pressure to Esper or they just don't care, because at the end of the day they're a much better Stoneforge / Lingering Souls deck than you are. If they're actively attacking your stoneforges, they're very likely going to lose to your actual threats. Esper is an incredibly hard matchup, it almost always comes down to resolving a Sylvan Library, if you can do that you have a good shot of winning if they don't vindicate it.

I've personally found just the opposite, that particularly against a deck like Esper, the stoneforge package, even at 4 with lingering souls and batterskull, isn't favored in the slightest if they just ignore your stoneforges. If your big game is stoneforge and they're really aggressively trying to stop that instead of just canceling it out with their own and focusing their removal on your real threats and landing a Jace, then you'll probably win that match.

It's not to say that every match will go like that, but the large majority of my matches with that setup came down to card advantage, not anything like a jitte or a batterskull. Stoneforge into Batterskull just about gives them a free jace. And if they clique it out of your hand in response to the activation you're pretty fucked.

This is why it's easier, and better imo, to use Stoneforge simply as another equipment slot that's slightly better than actually just drawing the equipment. And you certainly don't play it early. There's no reason to, you don't even have a threat with which to apply pressure if you play it early. Attack their hand, get a library on board, stick a threat, and apply pressure before playing stoneforge, otherwise the next 3-4 turns are very obvious and they have enough information to bury you.

And on the contrary, the GSZ build allows you to repeatedly plop a threat down, and that's whats scariest to an Esper player, running out of answers. It's way too easy for them to answer Stoneforge/Batterskull plan. You play a stoneforge, well, now they can play a stoneforge for free, and you can't kill it with an abrupt decay / they can easily spell pierce the sword, because if you do in fear of the batterskull, you gave them Jace + an activation for free with absolutely no pressure.

What they can't answer is dropping a bob, then after getting it plowed dropping a knight, then after the snap plow having to deal with the discard + GSZ for Goyf, and so on. The only way I consistently beat Esper is by simply having more threats than they have answers in rapid succession. Sometimes the grindy gameplan can work, they can slip up and you can capitalize off a mistake and punish them super hard, but when you play against people who -very- rarely make mistakes, you shouldn't be taking games off them by trying to be a better stoneforge/lingering souls deck than they are.

I think you're misunderstanding my line of play, I'm not solely playing SFM and nothing else the rest of the game. I'm dropping Goyfs, Bobs, Liliana of the Veil, Library, Souls, playing discard, etc. If they have answers to all that, then they deserve to win. My deck constantly is applying pressure and basically says "I'm running this out, you better have an answer, or you lose". I run more discard, more spot removal, more threats, and the only true trump Esperblade has is Brainstorm/Ponder and Jace.

And I'm not quite sure why I can't Abrupt Decay their SFM... Misdirection? I'm unclear why this isn't a possible line of play.

I believe my current list is like this, been playing a different deck lately:

// Creatures:
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
3x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Tidehollow Sculler
2x Stoneforge Mystic

// Spells:
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Maelstrom Pulse

3x Sylvan Library
3x Liliana of the Veil

2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Duress
2x Hymn to Tourach

1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Umezawa's Jitte

3x Bayou
2x Scrublands
2x Savannah
3x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Marsh Flats
1x Maze of Ith
1x Dryad Arbor
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Karakas

// Sideboard:
2x Oblivion Ring
1x Duress
1x Hymn to Tourach
1x Tidehollow Sculler
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Batterskull
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Surgical Extraction

If your meta is as combo heavy as you claim, then I suppose my question is why do you play SFM + Equipment at all? Why not use those 4 slots to play Goyf? Also, why no Thoughtseize? How have the Thalias been treating you? You run 18 non-creature spells; that's a TON of spells that will be hampered by Thalia. What do you typically board out for her, your Plows?

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

I think you're misunderstanding my line of play, I'm not solely playing SFM and nothing else the rest of the game. I'm dropping Goyfs, Bobs, Liliana of the Veil, Library, Souls, playing discard, etc. If they have answers to all that, then they deserve to win. My deck constantly is applying pressure and basically says "I'm running this out, you better have an answer, or you lose". I run more discard, more spot removal, more threats, and the only true trump Esperblade has is Brainstorm/Ponder and Jace.

And I'm not quite sure why I can't Abrupt Decay their SFM... Misdirection? I'm unclear why this isn't a possible line of play.

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So you play a stoneforge, then they play a stoneforge, now you have 2 options: leave mana open to drop your equipment into play, abrupt decay their SFM. This leaves you with 1 mana open. If you have the nut and haven't already used it you could discard them here but, you've probably used that on the first turn to nab some removal spell otherwise this line just ends anyways since on your end step they plowed her. If you AD the SFM to stop their batterskull, they pretty much untap into Jace to your Stoneforge and can either just bounce stoneforge because now you -very- can't play your Batterskull and have no creatures on board or they start fate sealing you / brainstorming you out of the game. You have to again untap, drop your land, maybe play a 2 drop and pass. They've untapped with Jace and that's close to the worst possible feeling ever.

If you drop Stoneforge on turn 2, it should be because you had no other play. This line has happened to me enough times for me to learn that running her out on turn 2 is almost always the last option. If they thoughtseize you and they snap pick stoneforge over: Sylvan Library, Knight, Goyf, GSZ, a discard spell, Liliana, Bob, DRS, then that was a poor decision, as all of those cards are better than she is in the matchup.

Otherwise, if you were to drop a Sylvan Library for instance, they need to dig for a vindicate ASAP. You'll bury them in cards and they won't be able to keep up, your life total doesn't matter in the -slightest- in this matchup, you can bop yourself for 8 back to back and just keep jamming cards until they die. If you dropped a Bob, they need to kill him, if you drop a Goyf, they NEED to kill him, but they don't actually have to interact with your stoneforge because they know you aren't going to do anything next turn. If you drop another threat instead of playing the equipment you fetched, you've mostly wasted your second turn, and she becomes far less useful when there isn't something else in your deck beside her to put that equipment onto. Lingering souls is probably your best bet as a follow up play, but it's not that exciting compared to doing that in the other order: Lingering Souls then Stoneforge.

Compare that line to dropping a Goyf or Bob turn 2 followed by a lingering souls. They have to answer Goyf or Bob immediately. But now they have to answer the lingering souls tokens and can't really play jace with them on board. Then turn 4 dropping stoneforge and having 2 mana open to do whatever you need to with some lingering souls tokens out. Wasting two turns playing a Stoneforge is just too durdly to beat a prepared esper player in my experience.

Like I said, not every game plays out like that, but if I have the option to avoid that line of play I will almost always do so, simply because the possibility exists that I've wasted turn 2, and turn 3 on banking on them not killing her or having an answer.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

If your meta is as combo heavy as you claim, then I suppose my question is why do you play SFM + Equipment at all? Why not use those 4 slots to play Goyf? Also, why no Thoughtseize? How have the Thalias been treating you? You run 18 non-creature spells; that's a TON of spells that will be hampered by Thalia. What do you typically board out for her, your Plows?

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Because Thalia into SFM + SOFAF is just game ending. I don't currently own thoughtseizes =(. Or Goyfs =(((. Hence playing another deck.

Thalias are amazing, most combo matchups I board out 7-8 removal spells, which gives me a lot to work with.

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Originally Posted by Kich867

So you play a stoneforge, then they play a stoneforge, now you have 2 options: leave mana open to drop your equipment into play, abrupt decay their SFM. This leaves you with 1 mana open. If you have the nut and haven't already used it you could discard them here but, you've probably used that on the first turn to nab some removal spell otherwise this line just ends anyways since on your end step they plowed her. If you AD the SFM to stop their batterskull, they pretty much untap into Jace to your Stoneforge and can either just bounce stoneforge because now you -very- can't play your Batterskull and have no creatures on board or they start fate sealing you / brainstorming you out of the game. You have to again untap, drop your land, maybe play a 2 drop and pass. They've untapped with Jace and that's close to the worst possible feeling ever.

If you drop Stoneforge on turn 2, it should be because you had no other play. This line has happened to me enough times for me to learn that running her out on turn 2 is almost always the last option. If they thoughtseize you and they snap pick stoneforge over: Sylvan Library, Knight, Goyf, GSZ, a discard spell, Liliana, Bob, DRS, then that was a poor decision, as all of those cards are better than she is in the matchup.

Otherwise, if you were to drop a Sylvan Library for instance, they need to dig for a vindicate ASAP. You'll bury them in cards and they won't be able to keep up, your life total doesn't matter in the -slightest- in this matchup, you can bop yourself for 8 back to back and just keep jamming cards until they die. If you dropped a Bob, they need to kill him, if you drop a Goyf, they NEED to kill him, but they don't actually have to interact with your stoneforge because they know you aren't going to do anything next turn. If you drop another threat instead of playing the equipment you fetched, you've mostly wasted your second turn, and she becomes far less useful when there isn't something else in your deck beside her to put that equipment onto. Lingering souls is probably your best bet as a follow up play, but it's not that exciting compared to doing that in the other order: Lingering Souls then Stoneforge.

Compare that line to dropping a Goyf or Bob turn 2 followed by a lingering souls. They have to answer Goyf or Bob immediately. But now they have to answer the lingering souls tokens and can't really play jace with them on board. Then turn 4 dropping stoneforge and having 2 mana open to do whatever you need to with some lingering souls tokens out. Wasting two turns playing a Stoneforge is just too durdly to beat a prepared esper player in my experience.

Like I said, not every game plays out like that, but if I have the option to avoid that line of play I will almost always do so, simply because the possibility exists that I've wasted turn 2, and turn 3 on banking on them not killing her or having an answer.

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What else do I have in hand besides SFM and the 1cc discard spell I used on turn 1? What did my opponent have in hand when I saw it with my 1cc discard spell?

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

What else do I have in hand besides SFM and the 1cc discard spell I used on turn 1? What did my opponent have in hand when I saw it with my 1cc discard spell?

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It doesn't really matter, the underlying point is that any 2 drop is better than SFM on turn 2. So overloading on them is undesirable, as you could instead run better 2 drops and use SFM's more appropriately as slightly better equipment slots.

If your discard them and they're clearly dead to whatever, and have no outs, then you win anyways.

If by "better 2 drops", you mean Goyf and Bob, I'm already running a playset of each; I replaced KotR with SFM, not Bob/Goyf with SFM. Also, I was incredibly soft to Perish and RiP when I ran the Bob/DRS/Goyf/KotR creature suite, now I don't even care about those two cards (which see a fair amount play in my meta).

EDIT: Also, in your scenario, it most certainly does matter what else is in my hand and what else is in my opponent's hand. You can't just have a blanket statement like "SFM is NEVER the correct play" if I don't know what else is possible.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

If by "better 2 drops", you mean Goyf and Bob, I'm already running a playset of each; I replaced KotR with SFM, not Bob/Goyf with SFM. Also, I was incredibly soft to Perish and RiP when I ran the Bob/DRS/Goyf/KotR creature suite, now I don't even care about those two cards (which see a fair amount play in my meta).

EDIT: Also, in your scenario, it most certainly does matter what else is in my hand and what else is in my opponent's hand. You can't just have a blanket statement like "SFM is NEVER the correct play" if I don't know what else is possible.

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In your list, I would snap-drop 2 SFM for 2 more libraries. Running 22 lands with 4 of them being wastelands also seems difficult. I'd try to find room for a 23rd land somewhere.

And I never said that, I just said in almost every circumstance playing another two drop is better. If they have no removal are you playing SFM over Goyf? over Bob? What would you see in hand that says to you "SFM over X" when you discard them turn 1?

If I see their hand with Thoughtseize turn 1 (I'm on the play) and they don't have any removal naturally (tribal decks tend to suffer from this), then I'm grabbing their most relevant spell, then playing SFM over Bob/Goyf. Why? Because just as an unchecked Bob buries control, an unchecked SFM -> Batterskull makes it virtually impossible for tribal to get there. Hell, even turn 2 SFM -> Batterskull (assuming I snatched their Bolt with my IoK/Thoughtseize on turn 1) versus RUG Delver blows them out of the water as they can't interact with Batterskull with ANY of their spells (save their Goyf being a 4/5 and not dying to my Abrupt Decay). There are situations and card combinations that make turn 2 SFM -> Equipment the right call versus certain matchups and situations.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

If I see their hand with Thoughtseize turn 1 (I'm on the play) and they don't have any removal naturally (tribal decks tend to suffer from this), then I'm grabbing their most relevant spell, then playing SFM over Bob/Goyf. Why? Because just as an unchecked Bob buries control, an unchecked SFM -> Batterskull makes it virtually impossible for tribal to get there. Hell, even turn 2 SFM -> Batterskull (assuming I snatched their Bolt with my IoK/Thoughtseize on turn 1) versus RUG Delver blows them out of the water as they can't interact with Batterskull with ANY of their spells (save their Goyf being a 4/5 and not dying to my Abrupt Decay). There are situations and card combinations that make turn 2 SFM -> Equipment the right call versus certain matchups and situations.

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We were speaking about the Esper matchup. A knight just as easily wrecks Rug's day and comes down on the same turn without you wasting your turn 2 finding Batterskull. Almost any circumstance in which you are clear to drop a creature without the threat of removal, Bob is almost explicitly better in every circumstance.

Burying people in cards is generally the safest way to victory, and if they can't answer Bob, you're winning the game. Batterskull can be stonewalled by a Goyf but Goyf can't beat a Knight.

I would rather not make plays that give my opponents an out, and simply having more shit than they have will more often win you the game than getting a batterskull out early.

I'm not saying there aren't situations where it's the right call, it's just usually not compared to other, better plays you could be making that force the opponent to play your game. For instance, in my list, Tidehollow Sculler hits the field over SFM almost regardless of what they have in hand.

Overall, my biggest beef with SFM is that you give them ample time to figure out the next steps of the game, which is incredibly relevant against Esper probably moreso than other, more linear decks. Esper thrives on information, and when you let them narrate the next several turns, they're usually in a position to be ahead. You want them to be in position where they need to keep trading 1-1 with you until they can't keep up.

Got blown out by Perish yesterday by Esper. That didn't feel great. /ouch

Basically, against Esper, we need a resilient threat against removal, and against RIP, we need something that's hard to kill except via Terminus (which we cannot avoid).

Basically, I was playing my Junk deck versus TWO good Esper pilots making decisions together to ensure near perfect play. We're definitely the aggro deck here, but we need something to break the symmetry. They bring in SoFF, Perish, and more creature hate, whereas we bring in Jace hate. Usually if Jace doesn't land, then we're still good, but it sucks when he does. Basically they suggested to bring back some Thrun action (but he still gets chumped by Lingering Souls tokens) OR to straight up run Elspeth. Even though you run Elspeth and Teeg against them, they have to try and get rid of Teeg to attempt to muck you and actually win out with Jace, since creatures are sometimes not enough against a grindy deck like ours. Enter Elspeth.

Elspeth is immune to Decay and a backbreaker in the midrange mirrors (ala Jund, which we can dominate like a champ). It's less fragile that Garruk (although I do love deathtouch Wolves), and produces tokens that can block a guy with a SoFF. Plus, jumping a Knight/Goyf is pretty insane. Ideally, I'd like a shroud and unblockable creature in our colours, but I so far haven't found a good one.

Pithing Needle in the straight Esperblade version was crap, whereas against the RIP version is was great. I'm just debating on whether Needle still lives in my sideboard or not. It's the best card against Griselbrand, Sneak, and random other stuff, but I'm not sure if it's good ENOUGH in a meta with more traditional Esper. Time will tell.

-Matt

Would Sorin do well in Elspeth's place? Easier to get 2BW than 2WW (since B is the mana foundation/basis of the deck), being a black token instead of a white one is relevant (Dread of Night, Sulfur Elemental), 1/1 lifelink is always welcomed over a vanilla 1/1, and Sorin's ultimate seems more relevant than Elspeth's. The +1/+0 emblem vs. the jump+pump ability is debateable.