Miracle Control

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Originally Posted by HammafistRoob

The Sneak & Show matchup varies a lot depending on your build. If you play the legend build with Venser and 2 Karakas, it's a pretty positive matchup in my experience. I wouldn't call it negative with any build really, I would call it an even match at worst.

12post is obviously the worst matchup, but it can be improved with extra Pithing Needles and aggressive mulligans. Tons of counter magic with a quick Entreat or Clique + Karakas is your only hope really.

In other news, I took Ein's maindeck -1 fetch +1 Karakas to the local on Wednesday. I went 3-0-1 and split 1st/2nd (no playoffs, just swiss with top4 payout), my matchups were-
Rw Painter 1-1-1
Ub Reanimator 2-1
5 color Maverick 2-0
Deathblade 2-1

The list feels extremely solid and consistent. I never had a problem digging for answers and wincons, and I assembled CB Top very easily. I've found the extra Ponders to make CB more reliable without a Top online, and they make it easier to find key sideboard cards. If I can make it out to SCG Providence I will definitely be on Miracles.

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I agree with sneak and show matchup depends on the build. I' m using philipp's new list and I don't regret it. I'd rather have a weak show and tell match up if this will allow me to improve all the others.

I found shardless bug matchup in our favour. Still this depends on their list. I've tested against the heavy discard version without FOW maindeck.
Goblin is not unwinnable is just very tough. You "just" need to find plenty of terminus and you need to play against a bad player( lol)

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Originally Posted by janluis1

Changing topic what do you think are miracles hard match ups?

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My opinion:

12-Post - Very little experience with this, but it seems miserable. If you run Blood Moon and Humility (BBD build) it becomes heavily unfavorable rather than miserable. If you're running a build with multiple Vensers and Karakas (like oarsman), you may be able to lock them out before getting anything going. If you're playing Einherjer's version, you probably have no options other than a quick Entreat and hoping they stumble on mana development. Last year, I was on a Stoneforge hybrid list that ran Humility, and I managed to beat 12-Post in my only encounter by tutoring up a Sword of Feast and Famine, slamming down a Humility, suiting it up to a creature, and then aggressively countering all their Crop Rotations and Repeals, but you're in the awkward position of having to play the tempo game in this match.
Goblins - Slightly unfavorable to even. I think BBD and Einherjer's builds are better suited than most here.
Sneak & Show - Even to slightly favorable. oarsman's build is best here.
Merfolk - Other than 12-Post, this is the matchup I most dread facing. I'd say we're 20-30% to win a match against an opponent of comparable skill.
Jund - Slightly unfavorable to even (40-55%). Matchup is pretty much about flipping Angels before Liliana nukes all our lands, with the caveat that Bob can simply wreck you if you leave it unchecked. This is one of the matchups where I really would like to have 4 Swords to Plowshares.
BUG Delver - I consider this a favorable matchup (60%), but I consider Shardless BUG to be an unfavorable matchup (30-40%).
Death and Taxes - I think we're favored here, although this is mostly based on my experience with Einherjer's list, which runs 4 Swords, 2 Snapcaster, and 2 Engineered Explosives.
UWR Delver - Slightly favorable. The difficult games I've encountered usually come down to 1) early Pithing Needle on Top completely wrecking our card quality or 2) a Gitaxian Probe followed by Meddling Mage essentially shutting down mutiple spells in our hand.

So, I've found that the weakest cards in the Ponder build seem to be the 2 Spell Pierce, followed closely by the 3rd Snappy and the 4th Force. At this point the only cards I feel like moving are the 2 Spell Pierce, and I don't feel like I want any more Counterspell or Counterbalance in the 75. So my question is, for a big tournament, would you feel more comfortable with 2 REBs in the main? I'm not the biggest fan of Snare since it doesn't hit most of our troublesome cards except for Bob and Sylvan Library. So I'm basically choosing between Pierce and REB at this point, or possibly just add in a Vendilion and an extra land? I mean, when Pierce is good it's GOOD. But when it's bad it's trash, and I don't really like how swingy it can be since our games tend to go long.

Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

My opinion:

12-Post - Very little experience with this, but it seems miserable. If you run Blood Moon and Humility (BBD build) it becomes heavily unfavorable rather than miserable. If you're running a build with multiple Vensers and Karakas (like oarsman), you may be able to lock them out before getting anything going. If you're playing Einherjer's version, you probably have no options other than a quick Entreat and hoping they stumble on mana development. Last year, I was on a Stoneforge hybrid list that ran Humility, and I managed to beat 12-Post in my only encounter by tutoring up a Sword of Feast and Famine, slamming down a Humility, suiting it up to a creature, and then aggressively countering all their Crop Rotations and Repeals, but you're in the awkward position of having to play the tempo game in this match.
Goblins - Slightly unfavorable to even. I think BBD and Einherjer's builds are better suited than most here.
Sneak & Show - Even to slightly favorable. oarsman's build is best here.
Merfolk - Other than 12-Post, this is the matchup I most dread facing. I'd say we're 20-30% to win a match against an opponent of comparable skill.
Jund - Slightly unfavorable to even (40-55%). Matchup is pretty much about flipping Angels before Liliana nukes all our lands, with the caveat that Bob can simply wreck you if you leave it unchecked. This is one of the matchups where I really would like to have 4 Swords to Plowshares.
BUG Delver - I consider this a favorable matchup (60%), but I consider Shardless BUG to be an unfavorable matchup (30-40%).
Death and Taxes - I think we're favored here, although this is mostly based on my experience with Einherjer's list, which runs 4 Swords, 2 Snapcaster, and 2 Engineered Explosives.
UWR Delver - Slightly favorable. The difficult games I've encountered usually come down to 1) early Pithing Needle on Top completely wrecking our card quality or 2) a Gitaxian Probe followed by Meddling Mage essentially shutting down mutiple spells in our hand.

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I tested several games against merfolk and is not that bad. I was about 5 won and 5 lost MD against a good player. Perhaps depends on their build.
Their biggest threats are muta and vial. If you happen to resolve a terminus and stick a jace on the batter field you basically got it.
About shard less Bug did't find that match up really hard after testing they just have 2 threats to handle ancestral vision and jace.
Against UWR delver: I was playing UWR delver before switching to miracles(bored to face miracles, junds, painters and bug delver all the time), so I know decently well how this matchup is presented on both sides.
Uwr delver to win has to stick a turn 1 delver that flips on turn 2, playing one threat a time and counter turn 1 top. If this happens well miracle player will be tempoed out most of the time.
I disagree here in playing out daze and spell pierce the first turns. I'd suggest to adopt paco's strategy and don't care so much about daze and spell pierce(I'd rather solve an early terminus than an early counterbalance). Batterskull is a late game threat. Counter it, is the only way they can win late game. After Sb they don't have much.They will bring meddling on terminus, thats about it. You will just use your pyroblasts on them.

Hope this helps

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Originally Posted by HammafistRoob

So, I've found that the weakest cards in the Ponder build seem to be the 2 Spell Pierce, followed closely by the 3rd Snappy and the 4th Force. At this point the only cards I feel like moving are the 2 Spell Pierce, and I don't feel like I want any more Counterspell or Counterbalance in the 75. So my question is, for a big tournament, would you feel more comfortable with 2 REBs in the main? I'm not the biggest fan of Snare since it doesn't hit most of our troublesome cards except for Bob and Sylvan Library. So I'm basically choosing between Pierce and REB at this point, or possibly just add in a Vendilion and an extra land? I mean, when Pierce is good it's GOOD. But when it's bad it's trash, and I don't really like how swingy it can be since our games tend to go long.

Thoughts?

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I love the pierces. Sometimes players will not expect those and you just use it to counter hard to deal threat(HYMM, Planeswalkers, VIal, Batterskull ecc)

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Originally Posted by HammafistRoob

So, I've found that the weakest cards in the Ponder build seem to be the 2 Spell Pierce, followed closely by the 3rd Snappy and the 4th Force. At this point the only cards I feel like moving are the 2 Spell Pierce, and I don't feel like I want any more Counterspell or Counterbalance in the 75. So my question is, for a big tournament, would you feel more comfortable with 2 REBs in the main? I'm not the biggest fan of Snare since it doesn't hit most of our troublesome cards except for Bob and Sylvan Library. So I'm basically choosing between Pierce and REB at this point, or possibly just add in a Vendilion and an extra land? I mean, when Pierce is good it's GOOD. But when it's bad it's trash, and I don't really like how swingy it can be since our games tend to go long.

Thoughts?

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I am still on my sort of Ein-Oarsman hyrbid list of 2 ponder, 2 snap, 2 clique, 1 venser/council's judgement, and I like it very much. I certainly see the merit of 4 ponders, but if I were cutting pierces I would want some good way to deal with lily and annoying artifacts/enchantments. Clique does half of that. EE or councils judgement (out next weekend) do both less efficiently. I would recommend some combination of those cards. I have run EE MD before, and it was actually really good.

I think MD REB would be good, but I don't think the trade off having to dilute your manabase with a basic mountain is worth it. If you don't mind that cost, go for it.

With Philipp's list i want to cut the third Jace for a 1x Council Judgement is that dumb?

Jace is a power house in this deck, and 3 is the perfect # for this deck.perhaps 3 ponder and squeeze in the council judgement.

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Originally Posted by janluis1

With Philipp's list i want to cut the third Jace for a 1x Council Judgement is that dumb?

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Jace is our best card in the deck while Council is just a one-for-one.

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Originally Posted by HammafistRoob

So, I've found that the weakest cards in the Ponder build seem to be the 2 Spell Pierce, followed closely by the 3rd Snappy and the 4th Force. At this point the only cards I feel like moving are the 2 Spell Pierce, and I don't feel like I want any more Counterspell or Counterbalance in the 75. So my question is, for a big tournament, would you feel more comfortable with 2 REBs in the main? I'm not the biggest fan of Snare since it doesn't hit most of our troublesome cards except for Bob and Sylvan Library. So I'm basically choosing between Pierce and REB at this point, or possibly just add in a Vendilion and an extra land? I mean, when Pierce is good it's GOOD. But when it's bad it's trash, and I don't really like how swingy it can be since our games tend to go long.

Thoughts?

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I agree with Pierce being the weakest card. Try switching them out for Spell Snares and see how you like them. I think you're underestimating how much of the meta they actually hit. They're also amazing at stabilizing the board when you're on the draw. If your meta is blue enough that you want maindeck blasts then I would advocate for switching a volcanic into a mountain. I disagree with Snappy and FOW being the next weakest cards. I feel like the deck is really built around snapcaster mage; he just offers so much utility and value to be cut down. FOW is obviously one of the first cards we always cut against fair decks, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't play 4 in the main. You'd be shooting yourself in the foot if you played the mirror or anything unfair by shaving a force.

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Originally Posted by HammafistRoob

So, I've found that the weakest cards in the Ponder build seem to be the 2 Spell Pierce, followed closely by the 3rd Snappy and the 4th Force. At this point the only cards I feel like moving are the 2 Spell Pierce, and I don't feel like I want any more Counterspell or Counterbalance in the 75. So my question is, for a big tournament, would you feel more comfortable with 2 REBs in the main? I'm not the biggest fan of Snare since it doesn't hit most of our troublesome cards except for Bob and Sylvan Library. So I'm basically choosing between Pierce and REB at this point, or possibly just add in a Vendilion and an extra land? I mean, when Pierce is good it's GOOD. But when it's bad it's trash, and I don't really like how swingy it can be since our games tend to go long.

Thoughts?

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2 Pierces are necessarily evil, I wouldn't change it. If anything, you should add a Clique if you're on the 2-Ponder list. Yes, I sometimes find Snappy to be mediocre, wishing it was a Clique. If anything, it has to be that 3rd Snappy.

I'm gonna test that Personal Tutor, replacing 3rd Entreat.

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Originally Posted by janluis1

I tested several games against merfolk and is not that bad. I was about 5 won and 5 lost MD against a good player. Perhaps depends on their build.
Their biggest threats are muta and vial. If you happen to resolve a terminus and stick a jace on the batter field you basically got it.
About shard less Bug did't find that match up really hard after testing they just have 2 threats to handle ancestral vision and jace.
Against UWR delver: I was playing UWR delver before switching to miracles(bored to face miracles, junds, painters and bug delver all the time), so I know decently well how this matchup is presented on both sides.
Uwr delver to win has to stick a turn 1 delver that flips on turn 2, playing one threat a time and counter turn 1 top. If this happens well miracle player will be tempoed out most of the time.
I disagree here in playing out daze and spell pierce the first turns. I'd suggest to adopt paco's strategy and don't care so much about daze and spell pierce(I'd rather solve an early terminus than an early counterbalance). Batterskull is a late game threat. Counter it, is the only way they can win late game. After Sb they don't have much.They will bring meddling on terminus, thats about it. You will just use your pyroblasts on them.

Hope this helps

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I think for shardless, besides jace and visions, they have discard and liliana to back it up as well, making it a double whammy. I playtested against it around 5 times and only won once, maybe i am not that well versed in the deck yet haha

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Originally Posted by twndomn

2 Pierces are necessarily evil, I wouldn't change it. If anything, you should add a Clique if you're on the 2-Ponder list. Yes, I sometimes find Snappy to be mediocre, wishing it was a Clique. If anything, it has to be that 3rd Snappy.

I'm gonna test that Personal Tutor, replacing 3rd Entreat.

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Really? The latest Bazaar of Moxen top 8 says otherwise, and I also clearly stated that I'm on the 4 Ponder build.

When I said the 4th Force and 3rd Snappy were the weakest cards besides the 2 Pierce, I didn't mean they are bad or unnecessary. I actually love Snapcaster here since he's so good with Terminus, but I wouldn't be very excited about having him in my opening hand.

Snapcaster is great in Counterspell heavy builds. Philip's plays a total of 3. It's correct, there, to play 3 SCM, imho. Also, it will be great in list with Council, which is a card I'm definitly going to test.

Personal Tutor is something I can't understand. Why are we talking about it? To get a Miracle or a spot removal 1x1 on top? Really?

3 Jace, 4 Ponder, 4 Brainstorm, 3 Snapmage and 4 Top aren't enough to dig?..

Just to answer a few things that have been brought up.

I am not sure about Keranos any more. I dismissed him. But this might have been to fast, admittedly. I am not yet fond on playing him - but I left my position of not playing him for sure.

Councils Judgement is a very good card. I talked to a lot of people, I listened to a lot of opinions, I thought about it for quite some time. And I don't quite know how to integrate it into my list yet(!). As soon as I know how to do it in the best way I'll let you guys know. But I prefer to wait for as long as I need to figure it out. I'd rather update my list once, which should be built as well as I can do it - rather than update it every week or something. So it'll probably take a little while.

Personal Tutor is just bad.

For those interested - I'll post a pic of my newest altered Miracle cards somewhen this week :)

Greetings

Some number of Council's Judgements has to be correct, probably one main and one in the board. With how fair things have been lately, it might be time to move the fourth FoW to the board again.

Played in a small 1k over the weekend (40 something players with 6 rounds swiss into a top 8) with Philip's list plus some quirks since it was a small event:

3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
4 Force of Will
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Counterbalance
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
2 Entreat the Angels

SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Wear/Tear
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Keranos
SB: 1 Pithing Needle


Changes from my previous time playing the list at an event with more than 4 rounds:
(in the main) -1 Volcanic Island / +1 Mountain
(in the sideboard) -1 Counterspell -1 Entreat -1 Disenchant / +1 Pyroblast +1 Keranos +1 Wear/Tear

I really wanted to try out Keranos with a dedicated Mountain list. I played him for kicks at my local store and he was hilarious to win with, but now that I was playing a mountain I figured I could easily make the argument for playing Wear/Tear over Disenchant. Also, I correctly assumed there was a lot of blue floating around (I recognized at least 5 miracle players) so I decided to cut a Counterspell in place of a 4th blast.

Round 1: Mirror (2-0) 1-0-0
I knew my opponent was on miracles because he was still filling out his decklist. I wasn't trying to take a peek, but I caught a glimpse of sdt before I realized what the paper in front of him was. I kept a hand with 2 lands, Top, Counterbalance, Terminus, Force, blue card. On the draw, I draw into a second Force and proceed to play play my turn 1 Top after he resolves his Top. Turn 2, he looks on upkeep, plays land and passes. I draw a random blue card and have no choice but to play my Counterbalance. It somehow resolves without a fight. After this it becomes a bit awkward as I don't see any lands while he's got 6 on the board. Luckily my forces manage to counter his Jace and his Keranos. Yes, his maindeck Keranos. When I finally find my lands, he concedes after I resolve Jace. In game 2, I remember playing Clique and then resolving CounterTop shortly after. I win by landing Keranos and ping him to death.

Round 2: Merfolk (0-2) 1-1-0
I die quickly to a True-Name that I can't find an answer to. In game 2 he drew his sideboard and managed to protect his TNN for a long enough time with multiple Swan Songs and Forces. After I finally Terminus, my opponent plays very conservatively by only attacking with one threat at a time and at some point I run out of all my one-for-one answers.

Round 3: Sneak and Show (2-1) 2-1-0
My opponent knows what I'm on, but I don't know what he's on (I should pay better attention to the people I sit next to in previous rounds). Game 1, my opponent plays turn 1 Volcanic Island pass, so I put him on the mirror or RUG Delver. On his turn 2, he plays Brainstorm and misses his land drop. While he's Brainstorm locked, I sculpt together CounterTop. After he draws his two dead cards, opponent plays Ancient Tomb into Show and Tell which makes me really disappointed to be holding a bunch of white cards. After a shuffle, I manage to find an Entreat on top to counter his Show and Tell. On the next turn, he plays Sneak Attack, but I manage to win the counter-war. On the following turn, a second Sneak Attack finds its way onto board and I die shortly after. In game 2, I'm forced to fight over his EOT Clique which really caught me off-guard. After I had enough lands to hold up Counterspell, I managed to set up a CounterTop with a floating Clique/Jace while my Snapcaster beats for the win. Game 3 consisted of blasting his first Show and Tell. On the next turn, I play a Clique which sees FOW, FOW, Spell Pierce, Griselbrand, and Wipe Away. My hand has Counterbalance, Force, Counterspell, Red Blast in hand along with 3 lands on the board. I decided to take Griselbrand after going in the tank because I wasn't sure if I should take a Force instead. He attempts to cast a Sneak Attack he drew, but I win the counterwar as he has to pitch the two blue cards to Forces. Clique ends up hitting him enough times to close it up as it came down to a game of top decks.

Round 4: Deathblade (2-0) 3-1-0
My opponent was on a fairly stock deathblade list and I was under the impression that he knew what I was on based on his poker face. In game 1, I manage to find answers to all his threats while I float Jace until I'm able to play him into an empty board and empty hand. Jace brainstorms a couple turns and gives me enough gas to win the game with an entreat to race his resolved TNN. G2 was fairly similar. I believe my opponent forced my Jace and my Keranos leaving him without much left in hand. I entreat for 3 angels and swing twice which again beat his TNN, but I think my life was low enough where my opponent could have forced a game 3 if he didn't miss a Deathrite activation and if he remembered to add 2 counters to his Jitte during one of his attack steps.

Round 5: Nic-Fit Pod (2-1) 4-1-0
I drop the first game after bricking on 2 lands while my opponent assembles Birthing Pod, Recurring Nightmare, and plenty of mana after taking my Top turn 1 with a blind Cabal Therapy. I knew by turn 4 the game was done as my board consisted of Island, Tundra, and double Counterbalance while my hand had double Entreat and a Terminus. Since I wanted to see what was in his deck, I let most of his cards resolve through my counterbalance triggers. At one point, my opponent plays Green Sun for x=1 which gets countered by a Counterbalance on top of my deck. He then shrugs his shoulders and plays a Baleful Strix which he wouldn't mind in his graveyard since he has Recurring Nightmare active on the board. I shrug my shoulders back and say "ok" which surprises my opponent. I already know what GSZ can fetch at 1, but I'm more curious to see what the better draws are in his list. I eventually see Glen Elendra, Thragtusk, Redcap, and scoop when Grave Titan comes out so I put him on the stock BUG Pod list. I wasn't too familiar with Pod's sideboard, but the only things I could think of were Pithing Needle, Krosan Grip, Thrun, and Notion Thief. Thus, even though I figured the chances were slim, I ended up playing around Notion Thief for the remainder of the match In game 2, he forces my Keranos (:frown:), but I Wear/Tear his Birthing Pod + Pernicious Deed which leaves him on a board consisting of lands and EE for 2. I think I ended up playing Snapcaster to flashback a second double-wammy Wear/Tear. Angels end up killing him shortly after. In game 3, he kept a hand with forest, 3x Deathrite. I plow the first and Terminus the next 2 that come out. By turn 4 I have Jace out versus his two lands. Soon after, Keranos hits the table and the game was pretty locked up by the time he finds his lands. Again, it felt good to Wear/Tear down his Pernicious Deed + Pithing Needle, but it was a bit overkill by that point anyway.

Round 6: ID into top 8

Top 8: Junk Blade (0-2)
My opponent was on a list with a list of with Thoughtseize, Hymn, Liliana, Stoneforge, Thalia, Lingering Souls, Deathrite, and Loam. I don't remember what everyone in the top 8 was playing, but I obviously would have rather played one of the two storm decks, RUG delver, or the mirror instead of what felt like a cross between Jund and DnT. Regardless though, I felt like I kept reasonable hands (especially against a deck with multiple discard outlets).
I brick pretty hard on two islands even after shuffling twice with Ponders and crumbled to two Dark Confidants in game 1. I think by the time I died, I was holding 4 miracles in hand after starting the game with one. In game 2, I manage to survive for a while, but eventually lose after I can't find enough answers to slow down Jitte and SoFaI. I think I used EE to blow up SoFaI, but my one angel couldn't stop the likes of Thalia + Jitte (with 1 counter). I made a couple mental notes of noticing moments throughout the match that if I topped and saw Keranos, it wouldn't have done anything whereas Entreat would have stabilized the game.

Overall, I feel like the power levels of Entreat and Keranos are roughly equivalent in that they both force the opponent to concede. The difference though is that they work best at very different times. Keranos is difficult to play from a losing situation. He requires a stable board or a slightly unfavorable board to be able to clean up the game. On the plus side, he doesn't require Top and he's pretty much invincible on the board. He can also come in against the mirror which is huge. A resolved Jace in the mirror doesn't mean you win, whereas a resolved Keranos spells game over. Entreat, on the other hand, is much better later in the game when you can just put down 20 power on the board and win while an Entreat earlier in the game can be cleaned up by the opponents Decays, Plows, Pulses, etc. At the end of the day, I would rather have Entreat against the fair decks where we bring in the third win-con, but Keranos just seems so powerful in the mirror that I have to second-guess the decision.

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Originally Posted by princeofperasia

I think I ended up playing Snapcaster to flashback a second double-wammy Wear/Tear.

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I don't think you can flashback a Fused Wear//Tear. You can only fuse when you cast from your hand.

I played 59 of 60 cards from Einherjer's GP Paris list this weekend, with a slightly modified sideboard. Took it to a 67-man event this weekend and split in the Finals, winning two Tundras and two Bayous.

Faced oarsman-style Miracles (2-1), Team America (2-1), Bernal-style Esper Blade (2-1), Punishing Jund (2-0), Reanimator (2-0), GWb Maverick (ID), Deadguy Ale (ID), followed by Tezzeret in the top 8 (2-1) and ANT in the top 4 (2-0).

Congratulations to all of you who took (slight alterations of) my list to tournaments and did well with it! It's great to see that you have success with it aswell! Keep it up!

Greetings

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Originally Posted by Tyrio

I don't think you can flashback a Fused Wear//Tear. You can only fuse when you cast from your hand.

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Oh you're right. I haven't played with Wear/Tear in my board until now and I think I did actually flashback the fuse without me or my opponent realizing the interaction. I don't think it would have mattered -- I think at that point in the game I was using the Wear part to kill an EE set at x=2 when nothing was on the board that it could blow up.

I will remember that for the future though, thanks!