[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

Abrupt Decay is awful vs any hate bear deck and Pyro Blast is better vs Miracles, I'm not really sure why everybody is hanging on to that card personally.

As far as the "no more free wins goes," this is an eternal format and you shouldn't be expecting free wins to begin with, if you get your odd Jund or Junk or Taxes player and get to kill them on the play that should be "free win" enough in Legacy.

@Lemnear
Re: BUG: If I'm understanding you, it seems like its good to just aggressively setup mana and keep my tutors/wishes safe, i feel like that would lead to me just taking the most aggressive or risky line that comes for the sake of speed. I tend to agree with that though since letting them get varied hate/disruption going seems like more than I could progressively handle.

Re: Hatebears: My SB runs the recommended Massacre and runs a second Chain of Vapor, so I think I could manage siding the Grapeshot into the main, keep Massacre as a Wishable out, and then also have 2 Vapors. This would give me some outs, and then my line would just be trying to Belch or Ad Nauseam asap. On the other hand, if my general plan is just to go off asap, i might not need to be boarding 3 cards, idk...

Re: Siding Infernal/ToA: I feel like there's a weird tension with siding out the Tutor. Against tempo, for example, Tutor > Ad Nauseam might not be as good a line, but having the Tutor still in the main for more consistent Warrens seems really relevant. Or against Miracles, the game is slower, but I don't see them having much of a clock. Against Esperblade or midrange BUG decks, I could see having the Tutor out of the main, even if I was keeping EtW in, though. I understand that the ToA/EtW swap does tend to need the sided Tutor for consistent wins, but I'm wondering how fearful of Extraction I'd have to be to "inconvenience" my main like that. I guess the reason I'm getting bogged down by this is that some of these control decks tend to bleed into midrange and vice-versa, so it's hard to tell just how i'm supposed to be orienting my win conditions

@ Final fortune
its usefulness against miracles aside, isn't abrupt decay an out for Chalice, and some other things like painter or the like?

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Originally Posted by wonderPreaux

@Lemnear
Re: BUG: If I'm understanding you, it seems like its good to just aggressively setup mana and keep my tutors/wishes safe, i feel like that would lead to me just taking the most aggressive or risky line that comes for the sake of speed. I tend to agree with that though since letting them get varied hate/disruption going seems like more than I could progressively handle.

Playing around Daze is your Bread and Butter in Legacy and if you have your mana in play you can nearly "ignore" all the hymns, Duress and Thoughtseize fired at you. You can either push fast for the combo as you only really care for FoW or go for a longer game off the topdeck

Re: Hatebears: My SB runs the recommended Massacre and runs a second Chain of Vapor, so I think I could manage siding the Grapeshot into the main, keep Massacre as a Wishable out, and then also have 2 Vapors. This would give me some outs, and then my line would just be trying to Belch or Ad Nauseam asap. On the other hand, if my general plan is just to go off asap, i might not need to be boarding 3 cards, idk...

i don't see why boarding out slower setup spells prohibit a gameplan to go off asap. Lets call Chain and Co. "Backup"

Re: Siding Infernal/ToA: I feel like there's a weird tension with siding out the Tutor. Against tempo, for example, Tutor > Ad Nauseam might not be as good a line, but having the Tutor still in the main for more consistent Warrens seems really relevant.

you know what we are talking about the requirement to have LED in addition and throwing your whole hand against a deck with Pierce, Daze, FoW, Flusterstorm and REB postboard?

Or against Miracles, the game is slower, but I don't see them having much of a clock.

That's why you want to evade drawing a second Infernal clogging your hand.

Against Esperblade or midrange BUG decks, I could see having the Tutor out of the main, even if I was keeping EtW in, though. I understand that the ToA/EtW swap does tend to need the sided Tutor for consistent wins, but I'm wondering how fearful of Extraction I'd have to be to "inconvenience" my main like that.

It's not because of Extraction. I mentioned it as a benefit to Dodge Extraction in matchups in which you board out EtW regardless as the mentioned BUG control which will have sweeper + Extraction postboard

I guess the reason I'm getting bogged down by this is that some of these control decks tend to bleed into midrange and vice-versa, so it's hard to tell just how i'm supposed to be orienting my win conditions

@ Final fortune
its usefulness against miracles aside, isn't abrupt decay an out for Chalice, and some other things like painter or the like?

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Alright, I think I get you. Infernal Tutor is a bit more restrictive than Burning Wish and those corner cases make a bit more sense now. Thanks a lot, I appreciate the explanation.

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Originally Posted by wonderPreaux

Alright, I think I get you. Infernal Tutor is a bit more restrictive than Burning Wish and those corner cases make a bit more sense now. Thanks a lot, I appreciate the explanation.

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Anytime

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Originally Posted by .Ix

Re: metagame,

I'll be playing in a small 8-12 man tourney this Sunday, with a meta that has at least one of each of these decks: Burg delver (Eric Rill build), RUG delver, Miracles, Sneak and Show, Esper Blade, Dredge, Pox, and MUD. Is it a good idea to play TES in this meta? I have no matchup experience with MUD, Pox, and Esper Blade, but I know the rest of the decks can be hard matchups.

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Seems like an uphill battle imo. The Delver decks are tricky, Miracles is also tricky since they do have outs to an early empty, sneak and show is another combo deck that gets to play force of will, and MUD is pretty horrid for you if they get a lock piece. Good luck, but seems rough.

Who is going to attend Bom9 today in annecy?

12h infinite trials (counting to 10) here we go ;D


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

are there matchups or situations where it makes sense to take out rite of flame to have it as a tutor target?

I've played the 4 color version, and I think it is great, but Sensei's Top is everywhere in my meta (miracles, DDFT, high tide, reanimator) would the 5 color version be more correct here?

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Originally Posted by apocolyps6

are there matchups or situations where it makes sense to rite of flame to have it as a tutor target?

I've played the 4 color version, and I think it is great, but Sensei's Top is everywhere in my meta (miracles, DDFT, high tide, reanimator) would the 5 color version be more correct here?

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Meh. I wouldn't board out rite of flame. Also silence is pretty decent vs top as opposedd to more discard

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Originally Posted by apocolyps6

are there matchups or situations where it makes sense to take out rite of flame to have it as a tutor target?

I've played the 4 color version, and I think it is great, but Sensei's Top is everywhere in my meta (miracles, DDFT, high tide, reanimator) would the 5 color version be more correct here?

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In terms of mana, the first and successive net mana for rite of flames is +1, +2, +3 and +4
This makes it awkward for wish, because you either have to wish the turn before the combo, which is subpar, or wish for the third/fourth rite, and having two already in hand is less likely since you sided one out. i'd rather leave them in since infernal tutor already does the card-duping job

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

I tried two Cabal Rituals in my local last night, scrubbed out, but that had nothing to do with Cabal Ritual. The metagame is just very hostile towards storm. The one game where they were relevant was a Past in Flames turn, the additional power from them was recognized immediately. I'm still not sure if they're necessary, but it wouldn't hurt to continue testing.

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I've been playing this for close to a month. Excellent configuration!


4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Dark Ritual
4 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Rite of Flame
3 Chrome Mox
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Ritual
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 Tropical Island
SB: 3 Xantid Swarm
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Infernal Tutor

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wonderPreaux

@Lemnear
Re: BUG: If I'm understanding you, it seems like its good to just aggressively setup mana and keep my tutors/wishes safe, i feel like that would lead to me just taking the most aggressive or risky line that comes for the sake of speed. I tend to agree with that though since letting them get varied hate/disruption going seems like more than I could progressively handle.

Re: Hatebears: My SB runs the recommended Massacre and runs a second Chain of Vapor, so I think I could manage siding the Grapeshot into the main, keep Massacre as a Wishable out, and then also have 2 Vapors. This would give me some outs, and then my line would just be trying to Belch or Ad Nauseam asap. On the other hand, if my general plan is just to go off asap, i might not need to be boarding 3 cards, idk...

Re: Siding Infernal/ToA: I feel like there's a weird tension with siding out the Tutor. Against tempo, for example, Tutor > Ad Nauseam might not be as good a line, but having the Tutor still in the main for more consistent Warrens seems really relevant. Or against Miracles, the game is slower, but I don't see them having much of a clock. Against Esperblade or midrange BUG decks, I could see having the Tutor out of the main, even if I was keeping EtW in, though. I understand that the ToA/EtW swap does tend to need the sided Tutor for consistent wins, but I'm wondering how fearful of Extraction I'd have to be to "inconvenience" my main like that. I guess the reason I'm getting bogged down by this is that some of these control decks tend to bleed into midrange and vice-versa, so it's hard to tell just how i'm supposed to be orienting my win conditions

@ Final fortune
its usefulness against miracles aside, isn't abrupt decay an out for Chalice, and some other things like painter or the like?

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More often than not aggro decks set Chalice of the Void at 0 as a free Null Rod vs Storm, and if they plan to set Chalice of the Void at 1 they open themselves up to discard.

I've updated my version of the deck, I've cut the 2nd discard spell from the SB, the 4th Chrome Mox from the MD and moved the 4th Infernal Tutor to the empty SB space in order to add 2 lands MD - a 5th Fetchland and a 2nd Volcanic Island - hoping to improve the aggro-control match ups. 13 lands feels like a sweet spot for TES off a mull to 6.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

More often than not aggro decks set Chalice of the Void at 0 as a free Null Rod vs Storm, and if they plan to set Chalice of the Void at 1 they open themselves up to discard.

I've updated my version of the deck, I've cut the 2nd discard spell from the SB, the 4th Chrome Mox from the MD and moved the 4th Infernal Tutor to the empty SB space in order to add 2 lands MD - a 5th Fetchland and a 2nd Volcanic Island - hoping to improve the aggro-control match ups. 13 lands feels like a sweet spot for TES off a mull to 6.

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I get the "Null Rod" interaction, where chain of vapor is a feasible out, but isn't a Chalice on 1 a threat on the play, since artifact decks have tomb/traitors and land decks have mox diamond?

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Originally Posted by wonderPreaux

I get the "Null Rod" interaction, where chain of vapor is a feasible out, but isn't a Chalice on 1 a threat on the play, since artifact decks have tomb/traitors and land decks have mox diamond?

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Over a 3 game match the opponent can only be on the play once with Chalice of the Void assuming he isn't MDing it, I don't really think that's worth SBing for.

You just have to learn to play the odds, IMO.

If your meta starts pairing Chalice/Mindbreak Trap with Hatebears/Thorn of Amethyst/Sphere of Resistance or is moving towards decks like Painter/MUD in general, I'd consider switching decks for a while and laugh at their dedicated storm hate.

Seriously, there is a soft-spot for local tournaments where playing storm does not make sense anymore as there is no reliable solution.

Look at my Painter Game 3 during Friday at the BoM 8. Him on the play: T1 Thorn of Amethyst, T2 Magus of the Moon, T3 Thorn #2 ... It's not that storm can metagame against this.

Anyone taking this deck to BOM9?

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

i don't see why boarding out slower setup spells prohibit a gameplan to go off asap. Lets call Chain and Co. "Backup"

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just a followup question that occurred to me: if Chain is the backup plan and the main goal is a quick combo, is massacre even that good in the side? grapeshot is wishable-removal as is, and slowing down to react doesn't seem stellar, not even considering the fact that it only works with Underground Sea. I've had massacre in my SB for a couple weeks, and I really haven't been getting a lot of mileage out of it, and i think that might be the reason. is anyone really liking the massacre?

Yes i do like massacre, you do not allways win the dice roll or have a first turn kill. So they might play some kind of hatebear. This stops you possibly for some turns and they put some other bears into play. Massacre gets rid of them as soon as you can go for it/ win.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wonderPreaux

just a followup question that occurred to me: if Chain is the backup plan and the main goal is a quick combo, is massacre even that good in the side? grapeshot is wishable-removal as is, and slowing down to react doesn't seem stellar, not even considering the fact that it only works with Underground Sea. I've had massacre in my SB for a couple weeks, and I really haven't been getting a lot of mileage out of it, and i think that might be the reason. is anyone really liking the massacre?

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I guess you miss the wider application here. Massacre is a possible backup against D&T, but another reason to run it is against stuff like the UW Delver/SFM supertype. Sweeping a Delver + SFM and occasional Meddling Mages/Ethersworn Canonists turns around the whole game.

Wishing for a Massacre and just sitting on it plus a fetch gives you all the time you need against D&T as you can just sweep on demand and combo without Résistance

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I guess you miss the wider application here. Massacre is a possible backup against D&T, but another reason to run it is against stuff like the UW Delver/SFM supertype. Sweeping a Delver + SFM and occasional Meddling Mages/Ethersworn Canonists turns around the whole game.

Wishing for a Massacre and just sitting on it plus a fetch gives you all the time you need against D&T as you can just sweep on demand and combo without Résistance

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I feel like having 2 other lands and then a fetch in, at most, a 13 land deck would be something of a stretch at times, especially against delver's clock or the push of damage from cannonist (idk how good a meddling mage check massacre is, since the mage would typically call wish). im not saying i havent been considering massacre, im saying its been hard to get millage out of it or make it really effectual. I'll keep testing it though, to see if i can turn more games with it, since even though it sort of suffers from the same "i can get mana-screwed off this" problem as abrupt decay, i like it more since sitting in the wishboard means its never a dead draw.