[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

The problem with Spell Snare is that it can be misstepped. If you need room, Spell Snare is the most obvious cut.

The lifeloss of Dismember is horrible; Path to exile is an excellent card in my opinion.

If you want to improve your zoo matchup, add the third EE I'd say. EE is about the best card you can have in this matchup.

Crucible of Worlds is very strong, although I'm not a fan of it. CoW is very good if want to reinforce your board-position, but it doesn't turn things around in the aggro matchup like Humility, Shackles, WoG. The thing is that CoW is actually just as slow as the 4c bombs or Shackles.

The problem with Spell Snare is that it can be misstepped. If you need room, Spell Snare is the most obvious cut.

The lifeloss of Dismember is horrible; Path to exile is an excellent card in my opinion.

If you want to improve your zoo matchup, add the third EE I'd say. EE is about the best card you can have in this matchup.

Crucible of Worlds is very strong, although I'm not a fan of it. CoW is very good if want to reinforce your board-position, but it doesn't turn things around in the aggro matchup like Humility, Shackles, WoG. The thing is that CoW is actually just as slow as the 4c bombs or Shackles.

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Originally Posted by markdirt

I have a couple questions:

1. How much countermagic is too much?
I'd like to experiment with 14 because Spell Snare is nifty versus everyone and Counterspell is great for our late-game.

2. Thoughts on Dismember and Crucible of Worlds in today's metagame?
Dismember seems really rough. The lifeloss is huge for Landstill. At a glance it seems people are playing it just because they can. Why not just play Path to Exile? Crucible is another interesting card. Stalling with Mishra's Factory is nice, but finding the right moment to drop a 3cc artifact is difficult. Does Mental Misstep make up for this?
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I was trying a similar counter heavy build for a time, but it never seemed to work out for me. You don't get the proper balance between answers off of your Standstills. It's really awkward & frustrating having them break your Standstill with say Knight of the Reliquary, drawing a bunch of Missteps/Snares and no removal.

I'm fairly confident after this that 10-11 counters main deck is still the sweet spot. I'm currently testing dropping Snare entirely for Misstep for a 4/3/3 split with FoW/CS/MM, and going back to running 2x Path in the main.

It feels promising but I haven't run the gauntlet quite enough yet to draw any strong conclusions.

@Crucible. Love the card, and I'm currently running 1x main (although I do play a 1x E. Tutor build). Though you make a good point that it can be awkward to find a good time to cast it. Its job is really to carry you through to 4+ mana against decks that are going to try and keep you off of it. The added benefits of Factory recursion and wastelock opportunities are just gravy.

Unfortunately in some match-ups you will certainly wish it was something else. Because of that it's a card that has been fluctuating in and out of my lists for a long time. Whether it belongs in the main or the side or not at all I think is potentially list/meta dependent.

@Dismember... I have no idea why people are playing this. Maybe-MAYBE in a heavy black splash build, but in any other UW Landstill it seems pretty terrible.

FWIW, to those who think this deck's dead, I've gone undefeated in back to back locals with it Wednesday and Thursday. I beat NO Bant, Cephalid Breakfast, Maverick, and Show and Tell combo in the first one, and in the second beat BUG Landstill, Burn, Cephalid Breakfast again, and Dragon Stompy of all things.

The list I ran varied in sideboard between days, but not maindeck:

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Faerie Conclave
1 Celestial Colonnade

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Jace, The Mind Sculptor

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Snare

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Path to Exile
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Wrath of God

SB, In General:
3 Meddling Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Wrath of God
1 Mental Misstep
1 Spell Snare
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
(Other things that I try on a given day - Serenity/Energy Flux, more yard hate, Blue Elemental Blast. Will try Mage 4 and Clique 3 soon.)

Vendilion Clique, I've learned, is amazing. I won most of my game 2's on the back of a well-timed Clique, especially beating a tapped out burn by flashing it down, seeing 2 Pyroblasts, leaving them both, untapping, and dropping Mage for Pyroblast. It was good in almost every match, and I'm contemplating trying to find room for them maindeck.

Congratz on the results.

Holy man-lands batman... a very interesting list. All the ETB-tapped lands makes me nervous though, were they ever an issue?

I like that you managed to shoehorn Path and Snare and Misstep into the maindeck together, and I've always been a fan of the Meddling Mage + Clique board plan.

Did you ever miss being able to produce 1/1 soldiers?

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Originally Posted by RogueMTG

Congratz on the results.

Holy man-lands batman... a very interesting list. All the ETB-tapped lands makes me nervous though, were they ever an issue?

I like that you managed to shoehorn Path and Snare and Misstep into the maindeck together, and I've always been a fan of the Meddling Mage + Clique board plan.

Did you ever miss being able to produce 1/1 soldiers?

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ETB tapped was never anything more than a small inconvenience. Ever since the curve of the deck got so stupidly low with most of my disruption costing 1 or 0, I just have to find the right time to drop the tapped land. Turn 3 is almost always an amazing time for this, as I have no 3-drops prior to Clique boardins. Occasionally, depending on my hand and the match, turn 2 or turn 1 works for this as well. I am contemplating dropping one Conclave for a Mutavault, but we'll see. The blue's been good to me.

As for soldiers, no. I've been arguing since the beginning of time that Elspeth, Knight-Errant didn't belong in any list unless you already had four Jaces. I'd much much rather just drop more Jaces and have a second or third one to get through counterwalls or Vindicates or whatever.

Congrats.

I hope you fit the clique(s) into the maindeck somehow. I know a lot of people are in a love/hate relationship with the Vendilion Clique seeing as how some people think they are useless due to the 1 toughness and pretty much dies if you as so much as blow on it, as well as dying to almost every creature in the format if its ever used as a blocker. Despite the con(s), personally, I love it in every control or aggro control list as a maindeck creature. It has evasion, built in thoughtseize/gitaxian probe thus allowing you to make much better decisions which goes hand in hand with your own Jace using brainstorm/fateseal, dodges misstep/snare, allows you to not tap out on your turn, faster clock especially in conjunction with a manland and pretty much anti jace when flashed in and they brainstormed, . Since you are landstill and your list has a LOT of manlands, even if they fatesealed more than likely clique and a manland will kill Jace on the following turn that clique was flashed in. I don't know but I just love the clique main and/or side. I just wish I had a full playset of them, but only have 2 at the moment.

Also, its pretty cool to just ambush a Dark Confidant with a flashed in Clique...it's happened before!

Ambush flashing is actually what I'd usually do with Clique in game 1. What people don't realize about Clique in UW Landstill is that in a lot of matchups, it's a removal spell. Trying to protect and go the distance with him in matchups with a lot of removal is sort of futile. Against Deadguy, for example, you can flash in Clique, clear the Vindicate out of their hand, block a swinging guy, untap, drop a Jace, and win.

The downside, obviously, is that it gives them a use for their Swords to Plowshares game 1.

Yeah, clique ambush flashing is really useful. Mind game tricks can happen at that point if you have successfully done a clique ambush once earlier against the same opponent. That same opponent when they see 3 mana open will be very wary about attacking into what seems like an empty board especially if they don't have an instant removal spell and swinging with a guy they want to keep as long as possible such as a Dark Confidant (which saves you 2 life in the process). Also, if they have a creature they want to keep such as a Dark Confidant and they don't swing into an 'empty' board seeing your 3 mana up, that can telegraph to you as the clique player that they probably do not have an instant removal spell. Then again, the opponent could be playing mind games with you and bait you into thinking that they don't have the removal...

I think creature cards like Clique/Bob/SFM in Landstill is best played on game 2. Most Legacy decks have MD answers to creatures because aggro is a huge part of Legacy. The ability to turn off 4-8 cards while playing UWx Landstill in game 1 has always been the deck's strength (similarly applied to BUGstill/Countertop etc).

In game 2, most of my opponents do mention to me that they will board out all removal for control-hate and only keep removal if they can't board in anything else from their SB. This is where cards like Bob/Clique will be maximized. Your opponents now have little outs to them, and you can sometimes ride them to victory.

In game 3, it's your choice if you want to utilize the strengths of Bobs/Cliques against your opponents. For most parts, you need to look at the matchup and analyze if sticking a Bob/Clique will most definitely win you games. If it doesn't, then I tend to not play with these in game 3, if it does (e.g. control mirror where Clique/Bob is huge) I will play them in game 3 knowing my opponents will bring in hate again. Being on the play/draw is huge when deciding whether I'm playing Bob/Cliques in game 3. I usually don't play Cliques in game 3 on the draw unless she definitely wins the matchup for me (e.g. combo). I keep Bobs in against control/combo even if I'm on the draw because 2cmc is cheaper to cast. However against control lists with StP/Snare, playing Bobs in game 3 demands a little more thought if you are debating whether you want to entirely kill 4-7 cards in their deck or you want to leverage bob to win games.

Just my 2c.

Nice list Taco. I would personally play more Colonnades over Conclaves. I seldom feel the need for Landstill to go into attack mode, even when under a Standstill. For most parts, I think that the Conclave will be attacking around the same turn as the Colonnade (i.e. late game when you have lots of mana). Colonnade is great on the defense but it is a little more mana intensive but it does fix the mana well in the early game. Also, it helps the control player gets around Chokes ;P

Vendilion Clique is only good because of Jace TMS. Vendilion Clique is like Duress in Vintage. Harm their hand and drop a bomb they simply cannot deal with: Yawgmoth's Will respectively Jace The Mind Sculptor. I think you can very well run Vendilion Clique, because its primary purpose is to resolve Jace TMS.

The 1 Colonnade choice is actually pretty deliberate - It can't really afford to swing until pretty late game, and I can never swing with two. And it can't swing with me having mana open for a hard Counterspell until I have 7 land on the board (8 if I fear it can get removed prior to a game-shifting spell.) So if you hit two, it's kind of the blows. And in any Landstill mirror, while it's awesome in a late game manland race, it's terrible in determining who has to break a Standstill first. And as a fast clock, it's just the blows. And while you don't always need a fast clock to not lose, sometimes you need a fast clock to not run out of time in a round.

Conclave #3 is a spot up for debate. I've contemplated everything from Mutavault to Dust Bowl to even Vesuva in its position. And it'll probably get tinkered around with. But I don't ever really find I want more than 1 Colonnade.

You could also run a Bojuka Bog in that conclave #3 slot and and cut a Tormod's Crypt in the board freeing up a SB-slot. Just a thought.

Ven Clique is really good even with out jace. He is a perfect creature for this deck as he does everything you want him to do. I am very happy to see taco using him to success as I feel that he should be some where in your 75.

@Taco

I like the list a lot and it has inspired a slightly different build than what I usually go with. But I wonder if you have missed humility/moat with this build? I also feel like part of the reason you don't like/miss Elspeth in your build is the inclusion of conclave with its flying built-in already. Are you also not a fan of wasteland? I think it can be such a house in the format with so many decks having few basics. How do you like having four standstill? Do you feel like they're getting there enough?

@Iron Buddha

Bojuka Bog isn't that great in decks where you can't readily fetch it up; being uncounterable is nice, but if you don't need gy hate G1 then it's a bad swamp that you can't find when you need EE at 3. I would rather leave my GY hate in the board.


I personally liked the idea of dismember, but it might be better as a SB option. Honestly the only time I can think of it being really relevant after more thought is if reanimator goes for jin-gitaxias and you can hit him before they get their hand full again. It can be good to kill some of the smaller threats, but path is probably just as good at that. The only issue I have with path is that it can make wasteland worse should you decide to run both in the same list.

deleted for double post

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Originally Posted by rayaj

@Taco

I like the list a lot and it has inspired a slightly different build than what I usually go with. But I wonder if you have missed humility/moat with this build? I also feel like part of the reason you don't like/miss Elspeth in your build is the inclusion of conclave with its flying built-in already. Are you also not a fan of wasteland? I think it can be such a house in the format with so many decks having few basics. How do you like having four standstill? Do you feel like they're getting there enough?

I personally liked the idea of dismember, but it might be better as a SB option. Honestly the only time I can think of it being really relevant after more thought is if reanimator goes for jin-gitaxias and you can hit him before they get their hand full again. It can be good to kill some of the smaller threats, but path is probably just as good at that. The only issue I have with path is that it can make wasteland worse should you decide to run both in the same list.

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Point by point,

1. I've never missed either. I feel they're both underpowered, believe it or not. Humility doesn't stop a bunch of guys from dinking you for one, and Moat doesn't stop creatures from doing shenanigans or being part of a combo. Or, you know, just from flying. I'm not going to run an effect similar to this until they make it a three drop and make it significantly better than Ghostly Prison / Norn's Annex.

2. I used to run Wasteland. Anyone who knows me and reads my posts knows how much I love Wasteland. But then I started questioning what the point was. I have no clock and usually want to hit 6+ land in a late game, so I don't really want it for mana denial. I'm not concerned with hitting other people's manlands because instead I'm just running more of my own, and some of mine fly. So this narrows down my desire to see Wasteland against the very tiny list of nuisance lands in the format, which I will address my answers to:

A. Dark Depths: STP, Path, Spell Snare/Counter/Force on Hexmage, and Needle on either or both postboard.
B. Dust Bowl: Pithing Needle in sideboard. Also, stopping the Crucible at all costs and winning with Jace asap.
C. Maze of Ith: Needle, win with Jace, or overwhelm with 3-4 guys lategame.
D. Hideaway lands: Needle them, or Stop the condition from happening.
E. Karakas: STP/Path guys in response, glare at them for playing Death and Taxes.
F. Anything goofy that 43 Lands plays: Mage/Counter/Needle/Yard Hate the engine, resolve a Jace.

Additionally, not running Wasteland gives me the freedom to Needle Wasteland on turn one if I think that mana denial is going to be a large part of my opponent's strategy.

3. Yes. Four Standstill is amazing. It's so easy for my list to get there with it given the retarded number of ways I have to interact with the opponent for zero or one mana.

4. Anything Dismember can do, Path can do better. Well, within reason. Killing Phyrexian Crusader or dodging Chalice of the Void for 1 are not included here, but the deck has other answers to this sort of thing. And as for them getting the land, I don't care. I'm not playing the mana denial game. I'm not counting cards, I'm only counting cards that can actually kill me and letting my deck get there to deal with the rest.

EDIT: I will say I'm currently testing a Dust Bowl in place of one Conclave, as it both helps in the manland war and can address the problematic lands that show up.

Okay, I can see your points, though that doesn't immediately make me feel the need to go immediately put your version together without a few edits. I am mostly wary of the conclaves in particular but I do like the 2 conclave/1 dust bowl idea more than 3 conclave.

I'll probably give it a test and see how it goes with 3 Jace/1 Elspeth, and 2 EE and 4 Misstep. Unless you think that 3 EE is really the best number in this situation.

I'm not going to defend Conclave as being amazing. It's really not. I just happen to like it better than anything else in its place currently. I'm contemplating trying Vesuva, also. Vesuva can be a manland or a dual, but if you have to make the choice early, it can backfire. It's kind of neat if a Junk Depths player passes with a Dark Depths on the board, though, as there's no way to respond to Vesuva copy-killing Dark Depths. In any case, I'm definitely not sold on Wasteland for a deck that always wants to resolve a 4-drop.

As for the other changes, I'm afraid to drop below 3 Engineered Explosives without any other way to get an artifact or enchantment off the board maindeck (Sometimes I wish I ran Cunning Wish.) Some games I even want four. The 2 for 1's it gets you are countless. I recently even got a 4 for 1, taking out a Tarmogoyf, a Pridemage, a Stoneforge, and a Jitte against Bant. In some matches, though, it's subpar. So your call there.

As for Jace #4 being Elspeth, I get it, but I don't agree with it. There are only two times I ever want any Jace I see to be an Elspeth:

1. If I already have an active Jace, and in this case I don't particularly care. I can Brainstorm extra Jaces away with the current Jace.
2. If Pithing Needle is on Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

Part of my Jace/Elspeth split is my lack of a fourth Jace at the moment. I've also always liked Elspeth, and if I don't play conclave then the jump ability can make some situations a little easier. Without humility I can see her being a bit underwhelming, but I still like what she does. I like the idea of vesuva, maybe going vesuva/conclave/dust bowl could be a good idea or having multiple vesuva.