If my math is right, the cut off for December is 74.428. This means 4 decks with Sneak Attack just sneaking in. Got to admit, that's not pretty since the other 3 decks are U/R, Miracles and Patriot. This is not healthy.
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If my math is right, the cut off for December is 74.428. This means 4 decks with Sneak Attack just sneaking in. Got to admit, that's not pretty since the other 3 decks are U/R, Miracles and Patriot. This is not healthy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
I'm not sure. I think the format is ripe for an unbanning if nothing else. I'd think that Cruise should be banned, but that's no guarantee that it will be banned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
I think Survival would be safe and could potentially invigorate Maverick and maybe some kind of Vengevival strategy as well. I also think Earthcraft has a lot of potential in Enchantress, which despite not being widely played is pretty well positioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
This is all nonsense. Prior to Khans, the meta was basically Team America/BUG Delver vs. Miracles at the top, with RUG/Elves/D&T/Sneak and Show/Jund/Deathblade/ANT making up the rest of the top tier in almost-equal numbers. HSCK ran the numbers on this for several months and basically found as much.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
WotC has made it pretty clear that they aren't going to ban Brainstorm, so the 80% number is clearly wrong. I'd say a Cruise ban is a tossup, with some sort of unbanning being somewhat less likely than a Cruise ban or no changes. The odds on a Vengevine ban, even coupled with a Survival unban, are 0.
link?Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
The last 2 years of B&R announcements? I've given up hope at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
Edit: Testing32 beat me to it. Also, they tend to go for minimally invasive routes to forcing meta changes; if something changed since the last update, it's Treasure Cruise, so that's what's going to go.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
Yes. If Brainstorm hasn't gotten banned yet there is no way it will get banned in the future without Wizards radically changing the way they maintain the Legacy banned list.Quote:
Originally Posted by testing32
What about Delver? Would it be too crazy to ban that guy?
The members of my play group have all different philosophies when it comes to Magic. We have different playstyles and different pet decks. We disagree on some banning and unbanning preferences, but we all agree: Ban Treasure Cruise! Games of magic are pretty much all coming down to who resolves one first or who resolves it more often. It makes all 1 for 1's in the game better for the player that has more cruises in their hand or their next draws, and it's not even close. Legacy is my favorite format, and I will continue to play it regardless, and I love powerful cards, but this shit is getting ridiculous. To all the brainstorm bitchers out there: I've never been brainstormed right out of the fucking game. I don't give a shit how many times you brainstorm against me. Can you deal with my threats? Can you kill me? If you can't, all you've done is spend your mana cantripping while I play business. When I play brainstorm it is a delicate ballet of decision making and patience, since I'm probably playing some sort of tempo deck that can't afford to rely on raw card advantage, or control where I must answer the correct threats since I will have limited resources until I can stabilize. With Treasure Cruise this is not the case, now all the cantrips become brainless digfests for Treasure cruise that you must spam as fast as possible, the decisions you make don't really matter, since you then just jam cruise and draw all the cards. No one ever decided to maindeck a Pyroblast because they are scared of Brainstorm, the Miracles players started doing it because they were scared of TNN (a dumb card for sure), and everyone else started maindecking it because they are scared of Treasure Cruse (even dumber). Even though WOTC are dumb they are smart enough to realize that Treasure Cruise was a big mistake for Eternal formats and I believe it will be banned in Modern, banned in Legacy, and restricted in Vintage. Who wants to give me some odds for a bet?
Getting rid of the insect just means 1 less win condition that is blue, leaving the blue cantrip cartel intact would keep the format stagnant.Quote:
Originally Posted by clavio
Take away Ponder, you lessen Delver's odds of flipping, you weaken the blue core.
Ponder is a strong card. Compared to Brainstorm, I see Ponder doing more harm than good.
1000th post.
If Preordain takes its place then Preordain takes its place.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
If DTT replaces TC in most decks then DTT replaces TC in most decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by rancOr_
Should TC get banned, DTT will also have to go because it will just replace TC otherwise in most decks. Don't think anything will get banned(yet), one or more unbannings would be a nice surprise.
I don't think Dig would be nearly as egregious as Cruise. Aside from being less raw card advantage, the sort of decks that can afford to leave UU up or to mainphase UU aren't the same as the ones that really abuse Cruise. UWx Blade would probably run a Cruise or two, as would BUG decks, and perhaps some control and combo decks would go to the full four. But (non-BUG) Delver decks probably wouldn't run it at all, and while UR Delver would still be a contender thanks to Monastery Swiftspear and raw speed, it wouldn't be oppressive because it either can't support Dig as well as Cruise on only 5-7 actual lands. If it runs more lands to Dig as well as it Cruises, that's also fine because the second U significantly impedes its ability to simultaneously reload and engage in Pyromancer/Swiftspear shenanigans.Quote:
Originally Posted by rancOr_
I think you're overestimating both the gap between Ponder and Preordain and the relative consistency of the rest of the field - decks without cantrips will have an almost imperceptibly smaller barrier to overcome than they currently do, and again little will change. I'd rather see Brainstorm banned than Ponder because it would at least lead to a change in the format by severely damaging Storm and Show and Tell and killing Miracles. I don't think that those losses are acceptable for whatever dubious benefit we might get from the ban, but it's better than banning a card and having nothing change at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by death
It's amazing to read how people want either Ponder, TC, Brainstorm or Delver banned, but don't care much or are completely unsure, which card is unhealthy, as long as something blue is banned.
Pure rage-banning?
Banning for the purpose of creating a meta that is not 70% blue shell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
What's your excuse for wanting the meta to stay as it is?
he's a storm player...storm benefits from a tc meta and likes really good cantrips. It's understandable that he would be perfectly happy with the status quo lol. That's not a jab at lemnear...we all have a predisposition...but it is reality when discussing these things.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
Hoping for a tc ban...I don't mind brainstorm but tc raw power is oppressive.
I actually think that Cruise is unhealthy on its own merits, mostly in UR Delver. The deck is brutally fast (in my testing I was getting turn 3 kills ~5% of the time) and doesn't have the traditional aggro deck drawback of not being able to survive having its initial batch of threats answered. It's not "quitting the format" bad in that regard, but it's also had a massive homogenizing influence on decks. Is part of that bandwagoning without a lot of support? Yes. But I don't see people moving off of the 4 Ancestral Recalls because the EV is so good, even once with the drawbacks of the UR and UWr decks that Cruise the best are clearer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Brainstorm is easily the strongest card in Legacy, but Wizards is unwilling to ban it. People are just throwing out ideas of other cards that could get banned instead to reduce the dominance of the "blue decks".Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Because the decision-finding of what's the smartest solution for the "Problem" boils down to:Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
http://media.wizards.com/images/magi...i_1280x960.jpg
Sorry, but that's not my niveau
Because he doesn't want DCI to foil his plans of wreaking havoc to the format with maindecked Trygon Predatorz in his TES.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
UR Delver is over-rated. It's a strong, consistent list but RUG Tempo was better. I'd rather face UR Delver in a meta with Treasure Cruise than RUG Tempo in a meta without it and that's not a hard call at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
The reason that UR Delver is played more than RUG Tempo was is that it's a MUCH cheaper list to play. No Tropical Islands, no Goyfs, it's about $1000 less to play the list.
That argument of being one dimensional gets a bit old:Quote:
Originally Posted by eays
http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/...pst1tzgsmb.jpg
http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/...psza6u00fq.jpg
Edit:
That was awesome. Just saying: With less REBs in the format the tech gets even betterQuote:
Originally Posted by death
Why does the meta have to change by removing the card that is just fundamentally doing what the color blue is supposed to do? There are cards that are efficient beaters (Delver), efficient evasive threats (TNN, and sorta Delver), cards that exploit the graveyard for advantage (Cruise/DTT), cards that cheat out permanents (SnT), all things blue has no business doing, and you would instead ban the cards that just decent cantripping?Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
Since people have become a fan of crime-related metaphors in this thread lately, that's the logical equivalent of rounding up a murderer, arsonist, jaywalker, and drug dealer, clearing them of all charges, and then banning pants because they were all wearing them at the time of their respective crimes. If blue didn't have great tools to WELL AND TRULY FULFILL THE ROLE OF ANY SORT OF DECK, as opposed to just kinda sorting around for good stuff, the blue shell wouldn't be as powerful.
For example without Delver, tempo has to make careful choices and can't be as blue. Your efficient threats are either low-to-the-ground red dudes, or graveyard-dependent green/black dudes in a lot of cases, so you often have to dip further into other colors not just to play those threats but often to play supporting removal like Bolt for large dudes blocking your swiftspear or decay for the RiP that neutralizes your 'goyf. Now that that reliance on other colors is stressed more and the easy blue answer is gone, you have to suffer that opportunity cost with less blue for manabase and deckspace reasons.
Brainstorm, for all the hate and ire it seems to draw, is just a card sorter. It doesn't guarantee your best cards as some like to imagine, and no amount of cantripping on it's own will win you the game. If blue stopped getting pushed over the edge with great cards it shouldn't have in it's color, then it won't be as represented.
Delver is the lest powerful at this moment than he has ever been thanks to the rise of Young Pyromancer. I think at this moment, the banning of Delver would not have the impact people are expecting it would.
FWIW, banning Brainstorm wouldn't impact Pyromancer that greatly either as just playing spells for value means that Preordain would be acceptable, or just pivoting to other functions cheaply like Gut Shot/Mutagenic GrowthQuote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Since when has how much a card supposedly fits into its color(s) ever had anything to do with whether it should be banned or not? Not counting the "banned everywhere" cards (i.e. ante, Shahrazad, dexterity), the only card on the banned list I can see that's arguably not in color is Channel.Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
They didn't for sotf.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
Guess how I found 3 of my 4 STPs and still have 45 cards in my deck, didn't flood on land and flushed my soft counters once the game went a little long?Quote:
Originally Posted by hobart
I dont give a shit if youre drawing cards???!!! TopKekQuote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
It's a draw fixer, it's a good card. That's what it's supposed to do. It's still not a blowout.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
Even if you're re-shuffling and brainstorming to find each of those StP, it's still highly unlikely to find them all withing the top 15 of your deck. You have to find a smaller and smaller number of success in a lower and lower set of samples. Treating every Brainstorm like the opponent has infinite Demonic Tutors is just ridiculous and posts like this seem to be occurring more and more frequently. I'm beginning to think that we need some sort of barrier to entry for this thread where you have to demonstrate at least a basic understanding of combinatorial probability and sample size logic before posting.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
Brainstorm isn't broken because it has a single digit percent chance of giving you a certain combo of cards, Brainstorm isn't broken because the only cases you want to recall of its use are the ones where it was disproportionately effective. You can't evaluate a card's power based on it's nut high of effectiveness, that's why cards like Phage (omg, one shot kill) or decks like Belcher (ftk every time guys!) aren't banned.
Brainstorm isn't broken, and it would be a shame if it left the format. The blue shell is, though, I guess most people agree on that. Question is what to do with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
Leaving everything as it is will probably lead to blue shell everything.
I think Ascendency combo is very strong and will show up way more than it does now, aside from many other combodecks building in cantrips/TC/DTT already.
Miracles already had a high representation of blue shell cards, Monastery Mentor will push blue shell control forward, whether it's in Miracles or a new deck.
Tempodecks will remain overly present.
Banning (a) card(s) from the blue shell; If you really want to power down this shell, brainstorm is the single card which weakens the shell the most. Unfortunately, banning it would also have a huge impact for other blue decks not reying on the entire shell. Treasure Cruise is the high end card though pushing the blue shell through the roof, so banning this one would also have a strong effect on the environment. But it's probably only a matter of time before a new blue card gets printed with cantrip synergy, which would lead to this exact same discussion.
The printing of a (or multiple) hatecard(s) against blue / onedrops / carddraw, which is widely applicable in other decks and not abusable in the blue shell.
I don't like hate against a color, but I would be fond of some more chalicelike effects or anticarddraw (chains of mephistopheles - spirit of the labyrinth) in other colors.
My bets though are on the banning of Treasure Cruise.
Part of this issue is that, in case anyone hasn't noticed, Prowess and Pyromancer/Ascendancy types of effects are just watered down Storm mechanics, on permanents, usually creatures. WotC took the most degen mechanic of all time, and put it on bodies. Except these are relatively economical and don't require careful construction with accelerators and tutors, like Tendrils, because they stick around on the board. It's not the blue shell that's entirely the problem, it's just that the blue shell is the most obviously useful set of cheap spells to string together because, unlike regular storm combo, cantripping into cantrips is actually a decent way to spend the turn. Even if you didn't want to play blue, you could just put in a bunch of Burn and phyrexian mana cards with enough Prowess dudes and probably have a deck.
This is part of my dislike of where the format is going. It is simply too easy, cantripping was already very good but now you can cantrip into oblivion for the win as well. Where's the careful deckconstruction with well-thought out interactions between cards, resulting in interesting varienced decks? I would like the printing of cards which make new and competitive deckideas possible, but there's quite an efficiency gap to overcome compared to the power of cantrip.
Try to see it the following way: If you ban Brainstorm and hurt all these blue combo decks and Miracles and whatnot in a serious manner, but the core strengh of Ponder+Preordain+Probe+Treasure Cruise remains, would players really skip on that card selection and power to just move to non-blue decks which are no match for that CA and CQ in the first place? They would not. All that would pretty likely happen is that the blue combo, Miracles, etc. players would move to decks with less conditional cards like Terminus or Daze (which they would no longer be able to Brainstorm away). We already have such decks in the format in form of UWx Blades.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingo
Verdict:
Would the total numbers of people abusing the power and redundancy of the beforementioned core shrink if Brainstorm is banned? No it would not and nothing would change for the position of non-blue decks against the blue core. Would the format get more diverse if all the players riding Ponder+Brainstorm for various function and in various decks as a glue simply move to Blade-Variants because conditional cards become a no-go without Brainstorm in the format? It would neither. Would the format become more attractive for players if combo and control get a serious hit only benefiting the SFM/TNN circlejerk in tournaments round after round? No chance in hell
If you ask me i would ban no card, especially no TC or BS. Sure the blue shell is strong but give the meta a chance to stabilize on its own. There is no "must ban" decision like we had with Mental Misstep where several decks couldnt be played because of this counter. Nowadays a lot of decks can be played. Some better, some worse but that is meta. If blue/red is the "best" color combination why is there no opportunity to play it? A lot of people want to play "The best deck" in the format. Nowadays they think it is blue/red.
If people find decks to beat U/R more easily than this deck will rise and U/R will go back in popularity.
imo the meta is as fine as it is. Banning a card would be a big fault. The cards are strong like we see but there is no reason to ban because legacy is the format with the best cards magic has ever seen.
Edit: I would like to see SoTF gets a new chance in legacy.
Lemnear, I don't have a hard time to see things as you do. I even don't disagree. But an argumentation pro brainstorm does not address the problem of the blue shell, it seems like an argumentation for the sake of the status quo. So you might be totally fine with the overabundance of this blue shell (then we disagree, because I think it turns the environment in a grey goo of more or less the same deckstrategies). But if you're not, what do you think should happen?
Still pulling for mass bannings, but with a slightly updated (and truncated) list:
-Delver of Secrets
-True Name Nemesis
-Treasure Cruise
-Brainstorm
-Progenitus
-Iona
-Emrakul
-Jin Gitaxis
-Griselbrand
-Gaea's Cradle
-Terminus
Kill these, and the format will become much better overnight. It's like scraping out all the junk that Wizards dumped on the format while keeping the good additions (Thalia, Deathrite, Abrupt Decay, Past In Flames, Young Pyromancer, etc).
And knocking Elves down a peg in the fairest way possible, because it's getting harder and harder to not make legitimate Academy comparisons when talking about Cradle.
Maybe it's because I'm coming from Vintage and am used to see a Problem per sé with the same cards being present in many decks especially if they are pure support-cards. A few years ago every non-Workshop, non-Oath Vintage deck in Vintage basically started with 4 Dark Confidants and no one had a problem. During the Golden Age of Vintage half of the format played Scroll/Brainstorm/Ponder and we had a plendid Vintage community despite of these "fix slots".Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingo
What appears to be constantly undermined in the discussion is that the Cantrips aren't keeping Tarmogoyf and Lackey and Wild Nacatl out from the format, but it' in fact the Powercreep. UR replaced RUG because Nimble Mongoose and Tarmogoyf doesn't cut it anymore thanks to Delver, Swiftspear and Pyromancer. Lackey can't get past DRS. Would this change if these cards are found via Preordain instead of Brainstorm? Nope.
Don't mistake me for being fine that a) blue decks these days basically build itself, b) Tempo and aggro have better carddraw than control decks (My worst fear for Legacy ever was that tempo decks get access to real cardadvantage - to name Gush) or c) all that comes without real tradeoffs - but even worse - even allowed these decks to cut down colors for even more stable manabases.
WotC can undo that development if they wish. They can reintroduce graveyard-matters-cards like Mongoose, Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker as reasons to splash colors. They can do this pretty easily without the format collapsing end of January, give the format more time trying to adapt or get going with relevant printings in BGW
Can we stop pretending Survival is a balanced and fair Magic card? It is the second most broken Green Spell ever printed (citation needed) after Fastbond.
Oath would like a word with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
Did anyone say Quirion Ranger?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
So does Channel. Still, Survival is pretty busted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box