Miracle Control

I'd like to have a discussion on Blood Moon vs Back to Basics.

I have been running one or two Blood Moons in the SB for a long time, but am considering a switch to B2B.

Blood Moon
Pros
* Better colour hosing against most decks
* Disables fetches (see below!)
* Shuts down Marit Lage combo
* Does not die to Red Blast
* Non-basics can still be used to activate Top etc.

Cons
* Disables fetches (hurts us a lot!)

Best vs
* Eldrazi (Eye of Ugin Discount, no or few colourless sources)
* BUG
* Lands

Mana base constraints
* Fewer Tundras?
* Fewer Fetches?

Back to Basics
Pros
* Does not kill fetches. Our fetches are likely better than the opponent's
* Pitches to FoW
* More restricting on "off-colour" mana. This might actually be a con?

Cons
* Dies to REB
* Easier to play around
* Does not deal with Marit Lage

Best vs
* Grindy multi-colour decks like Esper, 4C delver
* Delver decks that cheat on mana (i.e. most delver decks)
* Grixis
* Might be playable vs. Death & Taxes? Hoses Ports, but OTOH they have lots of Basic Plains and Vials...

Mana base constraints
* Basic Mountain might be warranted to supplement Volcanics(?) I'm thinking 1 Mountain + 1 Volcanic as opposed to 3 Volcanics.

Generally, Blood Moon is the harder lock, but it also hurts ourselves a lot more mainly due to disabling shuffles from fetch lands. If we are behind on board position, it can often be very dangerous to drop a Blood Moon, as it severely hurts our ability to dig for answers. B2B seems like it would come in in more match-ups and give a small edge, whereas Blood Moon in a complete bomb, but useable in fewer match-ups. Miracles has fair game against most decks, which would suggest going for a small edge in more match-ups, but the inability to shut down Marit Lage seems like a huge deal. If we look at hte "Best vs" lists, the match-ups under Blood Moon are the ones where I feel we need the most help.

Any experiences with B2B would be much appreciated. When does it come in? Are you generally just slamming it ASAP? Does bouncing B2B with Venser ever come up?

On a related note the number of Tundras to run might warrant a discussion. Almost everyone runs 3 Tundras, but I often find they are a liability. I saw on Joe's latest list on mtgpulse.com that he is running only a single Tundra, but that may be due to him having 2 Karakas+Cavern+Cavern(SB).
I am considering going down to 2 Tundras in my "3-Ponder, no Mentor main, no legends" build regardless of the Moon vs B2B discussion.

Blood Moon is not there to be a value card.

You enter Blood Moon when it's a kill.

Eldrazi, Delver, and BUG can't play under Blood Moon. They are the three most popular decks after Miracles.

Back to Basics is cute, but it doesn't provide the instant game-winning advantage that Blood Moon does. The opponent might still be able to cast one or two spells. He can use his future lands.

One of my friends once said: "Your non-land permanents [in Miracles] should win you the game."

In the MUs where you would bring them in, B2B cannot win you the game. Blood Moon often can.

Losing the ability to fetch is a big detriment, but it's a tradeoff worth making if it ensures that your opponents won't be able to play Magic for a good majority of the rest of the game (assuming they have a basic Forest in their deck to cast a KGrip or Decay, but by then you'll have either established an ETA or Jace ticking up.) B2B lets them make nonbasic land drops to cast those enchantment removal spells, Blood Moon makes their nonbasic land drops useless. If the only argument to not running Blood Moon, and it seems to be the only one based on what I've read on this thread, is that we can't fetch, I'll run Blood Moon every time. With our basic land density, it only takes one Ponder or Brainstorm or a Sensei's Top (which can be used with any color mana) after landing a Moon to find a wincon, even if that wincon is a VClique.

Good afternoon folks. I am sorry if this is a repeat question, but can someone give me a cliffs notes on when to board a mentor in? I've seen some lists that have 2 entreat main and 2 mentor side. Other than when you're starting game 3 with 8 minutes left on the clock, what matchups do you guys typically like mentor against? Also, when you board mentor in against those folks, do you board the entreats out? Thanks!

Short answer since I'm on my phone: MUs where we need to be the aggressor because the other deck has inevitability are where Mentor shines. Often ETA will come out, sometimes not–for example, if you're expecting to use Mentor in a defensive capacity, i.e. against Eldrazi is the big one right now. It's good to just have a backup "I win" button in ETA. However, in games where I personally board in Mentor, I take out at least 1 ETA, but this is likely more a consequence of boarding in other stuff like a second Clique.

I'd also consider From the ashes in that kind of slot.
It unallow the float mana and kill the moon/B2B play, but is 1 more mana.

hi,matcup vs eldrazi aggro and eldrazi ramp is difficult?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by caprino

hi,matcup vs eldrazi aggro and eldrazi ramp is difficult?

---

Eldrazi ramp is imposible

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gdtpara

I'd also consider From the ashes in that kind of slot.
It unallow the float mana and kill the moon/B2B play, but is 1 more mana.

---

This has been discussed at length. Against the decks you would ever cast this against (which are the same decks you would play B2B and BM against), it's not fast enough nor back-breaking enough.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

This has been discussed at length. Against the decks you would ever cast this against (which are the same decks you would play B2B and BM against), it's not fast enough nor back-breaking enough.

---

Tend to disagree. For example, any decent Lands pilot will bring in Grips post board and fetch a basic forest. In this instance playing Blood Moon simply gets Gripped. They can also still play Gamble to search for that Grip if needed. With Back to Basics, however, you can play it when they are tapped out giving them only a single green. This means they will have to wait a minimum of two turns before Gripping it. Two turns where you have complete control of the board. Similar situation with Eldrazi. Not all of their threats require colourless mana (i.e., Endless One). So, all Blood Moon does is slow them down. Same as Back to Basics.

The differently is that under Back to Basics, Miracles is able to operate with almost no downside. This is a huge advantage.

Blood Moon may be better in Mentor builds, I'm not sure. But in Builds running Entreat and Council's Judgement it is very hard to get to WW after a Blood Moon is in play. Generally only two plains in the deck.

I also notice Joe is running two Back to Basics in the board, so discussion can't be completely over...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by prepare4robots

Tend to disagree. For example, any decent Lands pilot will bring in Grips post board and fetch a basic forest. In this instance playing Blood Moon simply gets Gripped. They can also still play Gamble to search for that Grip if needed. With Back to Basics, however, you can play it when they are tapped out giving them only a single green. This means they will have to wait a minimum of two turns before Gripping it. Two turns where you have complete control of the board. Similar situation with Eldrazi. Not all of their threats require colourless mana (i.e., Endless One). So, all Blood Moon does is slow them down. Same as Back to Basics.

The differently is that under Back to Basics, Miracles is able to operate with almost no downside. This is a huge advantage.

Blood Moon may be better in Mentor builds, I'm not sure. But in Builds running Entreat and Council's Judgement it is very hard to get to WW after a Blood Moon is in play. Generally only two plains in the deck.

I also notice Joe is running two Back to Basics in the board, so discussion can't be completely over...

---

I was talking about From the Ashes.

As for B2B in Lossett's list, Joe Lossett can do whatever he wants because for whatever reason he and he alone does well with his Legends build. I've not seen anyone have nearly the same amount of success with Joe's list. As such, he can play whatever cards he wants and likely still do well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by prepare4robots

Tend to disagree. For example, any decent Lands pilot will bring in Grips post board and fetch a basic forest. In this instance playing Blood Moon simply gets Gripped. They can also still play Gamble to search for that Grip if needed. With Back to Basics, however, you can play it when they are tapped out giving them only a single green. This means they will have to wait a minimum of two turns before Gripping it. Two turns where you have complete control of the board. Similar situation with Eldrazi. Not all of their threats require colourless mana (i.e., Endless One). So, all Blood Moon does is slow them down. Same as Back to Basics.

The differently is that under Back to Basics, Miracles is able to operate with almost no downside. This is a huge advantage.

Blood Moon may be better in Mentor builds, I'm not sure. But in Builds running Entreat and Council's Judgement it is very hard to get to WW after a Blood Moon is in play. Generally only two plains in the deck.

I also notice Joe is running two Back to Basics in the board, so discussion can't be completely over...

---

You are mostly correct. Actually, the MU you would consider these hate are:
Lands
Shardless BUG
Eldrazi

Against horrible opponents, you can just float Blood Moon or B2B, wait for them to tap those non-basic, often that's the game. However, most decent players of above mentioned decks except Eldrazi would have at least 1 Basic/un-crack Fetch in play for the SB games. The issue with B2B has always been the timing. The issue with Blood Moon is not simply timing, also your opponent has to step into it, and the Moon also makes your Miracles deck very difficult to operate. Sure, From the Ashes won't have those problems, it has a different problem: Warping Wail. Even DnT runs WW, I've run into DnT's WW when I tried to CJ something.

At this meta, this point in time, I would say you are strongly recommended to have 1~2 SB slots for these non-basic land hate. 0 is not acceptable.

I haven't played Blood Moon, From the Ashes as well as From the ashes; I've actually been really happy so far.

I, personally, dislike Blood Moon against delver. I don't think it's particularly strong. We will be struggling with resolving it.

I don't think it's strong versus Lands and Shardless. Shardless always have access to Abrupt Decay, and Lands always have grip; They are even playing Abrupt Decay against us now.

I think From the Ashes is highly superior against Shardless, than Blood Moon and Back to Basics. I think B2B is close to unplayabe against them. It literally does nothing, besides tap them down until they find their decay. From the Ashes just poops on them.

Blood Moon is very strong against Delver. The same against lands, you do have to wait for a good opportunity though. It's not a "slam and win".
I did Top8 my second Legacy Challenge in a row yesterday, starting 0-1 and then going all the way to the semifinals, in which I got absolutly crushed by a blind card drawn and a blindflip off CB in the same turn G2. I'm still not sure if I want to do commentary, but I'll probably record the replays and post them on Youtube again.

Hi guys,little report. Yesterday I went to the Dutch Open Series, there were 71 players.
I played Predictable Miracles (+/- Mackan/Minniehajj list).
Decided to test 1 ETA/1 Mentor instead of 2 ETA.

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
4 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
2 Jace,the Mind Sculptor
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Monastery Mentor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
2 Predict
Sideboard:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Containment Priest
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Wear // Tear
1 Council's Judgement
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Izzet Staticaster

R1: Miracles 0-1
Since I was stuck for over an hour in traffic I arrived when the first round had already started for 10 minutes. Luckily I was still able to participate, but I start with a game loss.
G2 I win the dice roll and mull to 6 to keep a hand of 3 land,counterbalance,predict,terminus.
I play a t2 Counterbalance which resolves and so does he. I draw land and another terminus and scoop to his t4 Jace. Dont feel so great after this but decide to keep going.


R2: ANT 2-0
G1 I mull to five and keep a hand of 2 land,Ponder,Ponder,SCM on the draw. I scry and see a FoW.
He goes t1 Duress and takes a Ponder. I Ponder and take a Predict leaving Counterspell on top. He goes Gprobe+Cabal and takes my FoW. I just play fetch go. He goes all-in and I had the Counterspell.
G2 I keep a decent hand and set up CB/Top with some counters and beat him with a V.Clique.

R3: Burn 2-1
G1 I keep a hand with 2 Island,Brainstorm,Ponder,STP,Terminus ,X . He goes t1 Goblin Guide. I Ponder and shuffle, but dont draw any fetch/white source. He plays some burn and another Goblin Guide. I Brainstorm into a Ponder which shows me a Tundra but it's too late and I can't stabilize.
G2 Close game but I can Terminus his Goblin Guide+ Eidolon and stabilize on low life with SFM.
G3 I get to a situation where I'm on 1 life with a Counterbalance in play (no SDT) and he only has one land since he had Fireblast'ed me. He draws and suspend a Rift Bolt which I have to Counterspell next turn. I draw only lands but get to STP/Flusterstorm some spells untill I draw Snapcaster and Brainstorm and get there.

R4: Elves 1-1-1
G1 I believe he mulls to 6 on the draw, but I win this game quite easily with CB/Top lock.
G2 After a long grind, I think I have stabilized a bit at 3 life since I V.Clique'd him and took a DRS to bottom (he had 2 in hand). I STP'ed the other one. I had a Counterbalance, V. Clique and Izzet Staticaster in play. Had to fetch down to 2 life to play Staticaster. He draws another DRS, I miss on CB and dont draw an answer.
G3 We get to extra turns but neither of us can finish. Pretty sure I would have won this though.

R5: Rock 2-1
G1 I can keep his creatures off the board and gain massive CA with Predict and Jace.
G2 He plays a Trinisphere which slows me down a lot while beating with Gaddock Teeg and Kotr. He had a Karakas too and tapped it some times but I didnt have the STP so can't go STP into hardcast Terminus. I scoop when he casts Armageddon. I didn't knew exactly what he was playing but it was some Rock type brew featuring Noble,DRS,Quasali,SFM,Goyf,KotR,Liliana,Crucible,..
G3 I mull to 6 on the play. But I can set up a Brainstorm into Terminus and play a Mentor+Ponder. He has Liliana, Goyf, Quasali but I found 2 SDT and he scoops 2 turns after.

R6: Nic Fit 2-1
G1 He has a Liliana ticking up to 6 while I had Jace eventually. He ultimates me and I have to let Jace go and he follows up with a Thrun. I don't find Terminus and lose.
G2/G3 I can grind him out and finish with ETA/Mentor.

R7: Deathblade 2-0
Don't remember his name but I know he's a very good player. I had seen before he was on Deathblade.
G1 I can Terminus a TNN and a bit later another one. I don't remember all the details as a lot of things happened here but I got there with Jace.
G2 Another grind, but after a long game I can take control. REB's/Terminus were really good here obviously.

QF: ANT 1-2
I have to play against Jamie Westlake,imo one of the best ANT players in Europe so I know it will be a good match.
G1: I keep a decent hand with some lands and cantrips and he discards my CB. I can always leave up Counterspell+FoW and he isn't ready to combo through that while I eot ETA for 2 and get there.
G2: He mulls to 6. We get to a situation where I have a Top in play and I brainstorm/cantrip a bit tapping out with 3 lands in play (I had found Counterbalance and also had Clique,Predict,X in hand).
He only had 3 cards in hand when I passed the turn. He draws and goes for an EtW and makes 8 goblins :( I had 4 turns to find my Izzet Staticaster but couldn't find him.
G3 was pretty epic. Both my 7 and 6 card hand didn't have a single land so I have to mulligan down to 5 and keep a hand of land,BS,CB,X,X on the play. I just go land go. I think he plays a Ponder or something. Next turn I Brainstorm into CB,FoW,X but no land. I leave the FoW on top. He plays a discard spell . He sets up his hand a bit while I draw FoW and another spell. I then find a 2nd land and play CB which he Decays EOT. I play another one the following turn that get's decayed aswell. He knew this since he had prob'd before and didn't take any of the CB. On his turn he goes EtW I think for 10-12 but not all-in. I drew another FoW and Staticaster one of the previous turns^^ I topdeck my 3th land and can play Staticaster. We both draw go for 1-2 turns and I draw V.Clique which I play eot and I see Dark Ritual,LED,Infernal Tutor,Tendrils. I decide to bottom TOA since I had FoW,FoW,predict,REB ,X in hand and only had him on a 6 turn clock while at 16 life and 5 lands untapped. He Cabal Therapies me which I hardcast FoW, and follows up with a Duress to take my other FoW and can easily combo out with LED,IT for PIF. Unfortunately the Clique trigger gave him a Cabal Therapy and he drew a Duress. He goes on to win the event, well played ! ;)

Split T4 of the SCG Baltimore Classic yesterday. Will post report in the next few days.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by waz

Split T4 of the SCG Baltimore Classic yesterday. Will post report in the next few days.

---

how'd you tie for 4th, Miracles was 2nd and then again in 23/24th place?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MiraclesWizard

how'd you tie for 4th, Miracles was 2nd and then again in 23/24th place?

---

They split for prizepool and played it out for points/whatever SCG classics give now. As well as trophy?

We split the prize pool, and determined winners for each match, in a nonrandom method. No games in top 4.

Looking at Miracles at Baltimore,
2 Surgical in a list,
1 RiP in another list,
but the most common sb config is 2 Containment Priest and 1 RiP.

Is the Priest back in trend again? This is like fashion. It is a versatile card no doubt, ok against Vial decks, turns off non-Omni show and tell, decent against graveyard, ok against Elves. I guess the most common sb config at this point in time would be:
2 Cliques
3 Red Blast Effects
2 non-basic land hates
2 Containment Priests
2 Flusterstorms

That's 11 already. After that, the rest of 4 seems to vary a lot. Yeah, people say Moat is a narrow card, it's also pricey, but that seems to be the flavor of the month. I wonder if the trend will continue if Eldrazi eventually loses its popularity. I mean, there's like one Eldrazi in the top 32.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by twndomn

Looking at Miracles at Baltimore,
2 Surgical in a list,
1 RiP in another list,
but the most common sb config is 2 Containment Priest and 1 RiP.

Is the Priest back in trend again? This is like fashion. It is a versatile card no doubt, ok against Vial decks, turns off non-Omni show and tell, decent against graveyard, ok against Elves. I guess the most common sb config at this point in time would be:
2 Cliques
3 Red Blast Effects
2 non-basic land hates
2 Containment Priests
2 Flusterstorms

That's 11 already. After that, the rest of 4 seems to vary a lot. Yeah, people say Moat is a narrow card, it's also pricey, but that seems to be the flavor of the month. I wonder if the trend will continue if Eldrazi eventually loses its popularity. I mean, there's like one Eldrazi in the top 32.

---

I think you want to include 2x Artifact/Enchantment hate (wear//tear, Council's Judgement etc) in your "stock" sideboard approach.

That leaves, basically, 2 flex slots which are usually some number of mentor (if not in the main) as well as Izzet Staticaster.


I personally think Priest is superior to any other hate versus reanimater/SnT. I think you want Surgicals over RiP also, due to Snapcaster being incredible.

SCG added an extra staticaster to my SB, otherwise it was correct.

Priests are also decent against decks running GSZ, (elves, maverick), and are sometimes just a flash bear that you can apply pressure with.

RIP has some additional value against goyf/mongoose/drs/lands, and isn't terrible against storm.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by waz

SCG added an extra staticaster to my SB, otherwise it was correct.

Priests are also decent against decks running GSZ, (elves, maverick), and are sometimes just a flash bear that you can apply pressure with.

RIP has some additional value against goyf/mongoose/drs/lands, and isn't terrible against storm.

---

This might derail the Miracles discussion a little bit, but the meta has been shifting.

I used to think Priest is great against Elves, until Julian went on all the social media promoting Chaos Elves. I mean, he might not be the inventor of it, but he's advocating for all the elf players to switch out Natural Order. Ok, so Priest can still turn off GSZ into Reclamation Sage play (to kill CB for obvious reasons), in short, I'm not sure. As long as Jessup is still doing the traditional Elves, as seen in Baltimore, I guess it's better to be safe.

Ever since the introduction of Eldrazi, I just don't see RUG Delver anymore. Like..., I go to all these LGS for small Legacy events, I see zero Mongoose, there used to be at least 1 or 2 of them in any given events. Look at Baltimore, zero in the top 32.

Furthermore, I am more concerned about Shardless BUG, not Eldrazi. Miracles cannot spend 25~30 minutes game one only to lose to Shardless BUG because of some miraculous cascading. I am pretty sure non-basic land hate is not the solution, not against fetch-basic Shardless players with null rod in the SB.

SCG Baltimore Top 4 Split Tournament Report

First off the list: Deck

After scrubbing out hard in the Open [I don’t play standard anyway], I was looking forward to the Legacy Classic [Legacy and Vintage are preferred formats]. I had gone down to Baltimore with a friend, and the only issue was going to be the four hour drive I had to make whenever my friend and I were done with the Classic. I’ve been playing this deck for quite a while now, alternating with Painter. The list on the Star City site added a Staticaster to my sideboard. I only ran one. I’ve been running this list fairly consistently with little to no changes recently, and even though I was considering replacing Venser up until the night before, I ended up not doing so, as I figured it was better to go with consistency. I don’t have sideboarding notes, so consider the sideboard section rough approximations.

Round 01 Douglas McKay (U/R Dream Halls Combo) (2-0)
G1: I don’t have who won the die roll here, and consequently who was on the play. Doug Intuitioned for Mizzix Mastery and Enter the Infinite. However, the Dream Halls was countered, and Snapcaster beats eventually get there.
Sideboarding:(I have no idea what he’s on, other than it’s an ETI combo deck using the graveyard)
- 4 Swords, probably a Terminus, Snapcaster, Ponder/Jace, + 2 Flusterstorm, 2 Pyroblast, 2 Clique, RIP
G2: Doug starts off, and I resolve an early Rest in Peace, followed by a Clique to take Dream Halls. After two hits from the flying trio, Doug concedes, and tells me he is unable to win through a Rest in Peace. His kill is a flashbacked Conflagrate.
(1-0)

Round 02 Daniel Harrison (15th) (Shardless BUG) (2-0) Daniel's List
G1: Daniel is on the play. It was a bit of a grind, with Swords keeping Deathrites from becoming active, and we trade resources. I have top/counterbalance, and the ancestral visions don’t get to resolve. Eventually he succumbs to a pair of Snapcasters beating down.
Sideboarding: -? (probably forces), + Probably Pyroblasts, Wear/Tears, Moat, Blood Moon, Flusterstorm, RIP
G2: Daniel is on the play again. I think Daniel got a bit flooded, as I was able to resolve a Jace, protect him, and ultimate. I definitely appreciate Daniel not just scooping and actually letting Jace ultimate.
(2-0)

Round 03 Chris Muller (22nd) (Shardless BUG) (0-2) Chris' List
G1: Another BUG deck. I was on the play. I never saw a Shardless Agent game 1, and put Chris on a BUG control build. Having mana problems, and facing down a Jace slowly going up, I conceded in order to have a chance for a full match.
Sideboarding: Same as Round 2, but no Wear/Tear
G2: Turns out there would be plenty of time. I got a bit flooded this game, and after getting Chris to 9, thought I had stabilized with an Entreat during combat on his turn. I did not tap out for the Entreat, and had enough angels left to get blown out by a succession of Abrupt Decay, Lili sacrifice, play new Lili sacrifice. I never saw it coming. Very well done
(2-1)

Round 04 Lucas Allison (Blue Burn) (2-0)
G1: A typical Delver style deck, featuring Stormchaser Mage and Monastery Swiftspear. I stabilize at 4 life, with an active counter/top lock and uptick Jace. Jace ultimates.
Sideboarding: - Force of Will, + 2 Pyroblast, Staticaster, Fluster
G2: I take a few hits, he gets a bit flooded, I sit behind counter/top, and eventually a few angels come to my rescue. They are not angels of mercy, and two swings later, he’s at 0.
(3-1)

Round 05 Max Ansbro (Dark Maverick/Junkblade) (2-1)
G1: I’m on the play. Max mulligans and keeps a 6. I have this deck down as Dark Maverick, but it could very well have been Junk Stoneblade. I’m not really sure what happened this game, but it was a win at high life totals, so probably Jace.
Sideboarding: -? (probably forces), + Wear/Tears, VClique, Moat, Blood Moon, Staticaster
G2: He gets a few hits in, until I land a Moat. We play draw go for a bit until he finds a Scryb Ranger, which my Staticaster will conveniently do nothing against. I didn’t find a swords or terminus, and die to ranger hits with a SoFI.
Sideboarding: No Change
G3: Another game that ended at a high life total. Probably Jace.
(4-1)

Round 06 Manuel Eliopoulos (17th) (Junkblade) (2-0) Manuel's List
G1: I’m on the play. Swords does its thing, preventing Deathrites from becoming too problematic. I think Manuel flooded out this game. Beat down with Snapcasters.
Sideboarding: Same as above
G2: Manuel’s on the play. He’s having mana issues and can’t find land in time. I resolve a Mentor, and Blood Moon, and he’s done.
(5-1)

Round 07 Joe Milia (8th) (Cloud Post) (ID) Joe's List
Joe and I are 5th and 6th going into this round so we ID and figure our breakers are good enough. We both make it in after the round is over. I didn’t find out until after that he was on Cloud Post. Interestingly, after the round ended, Joe ended up ahead of me in seeding for T8.
(5-1-1)

I got some food, and came back to wait for the announcement of top 8. The round lasted quite a bit longer because of a judge call that resulted in a player being disqualified.

Quarterfinals Sean Griffith (6th) (Nic Fit) (2-1) Sean's List

A grindfest that took about an hour and a half, with swift pace of play and no slow play.

G1: We go back and forth, with Sean Pathing his own Explorer instead of getting hit by Terminus. I have a Jace ticking up, and eventually he gets a Sigarda down with Karakas protection. Jace soaks a hit or two, and we continue to grind, until I am able to entreat for six angels. I have probably 20 cards left in library and am at 2. I’m dead to Pulse/Deed/Rhino/GSZ. He doesn’t find it, and the angels take it.
Sideboarding: -? (probably forces), + Containment Priests, Cliques, RIP, Blood Moon
G2: Another grindfest. Sean’s on the play and mulligans to 6. Sean is having mana issues, and I’m beating in with Clique + Snapcaster. Eventually he draws out of it at two, and Rhino + Swords is a 10 point life swing in his favor. He resolves Tsunami leaving me with two plains. I don’t topdeck a terminus, and die.
Sideboarding: It is stupidity time, after 7pm, and I bring in Venser, as well as 2 Forces.
G3: I’m on the play and we both mulligan. Sean’s having land problems again. I eventually land Mentor. I start cycling tops and swing 7. He names Abandon Hope with Slaughter games, and concedes.

Top 4 Split. We divided the tickets, and nonrandomly determined the winner of each pairing via concessions and end the tournament. No games were played, and we finally got finished sometime after 7pm (9:30am player meeting). After that was the approximately four hour drive home, arriving just after midnight, Monday morning.

Some thoughts:

Several of the rounds, especially the early rounds went to time, and longer, because of this deck. I did not gone to time this tournament, and as far as I can recall, the only time I went to time was when I had the lock in and my opponent did not realize he was dead. It is something I constantly stress to everyone who wants to pick up the deck. Know, or at least have an idea of what you’re looking for when you top/fetch/ponder, practice the physical movements to gain speed, and it’ll save a lot of awkward conversations at the end of games.

I constructed the manabase to be as wasteland proof as possible. Multiple games, my opponents were stuck with wastelands that were unable to cripple my development. Even against Sean, having the extra basics was useful when his Veteran Explorer died. There were some hands that were a bit awkward, but with the amount of cantrips the deck runs, hitting the land drops should not be a problem.

Overall I was happy with the deck. I like the split of threats, and both Mentor and ETA have their own merits. My opponents were great, and walking around I saw a lot of positive interactions, including people conceding to superior boardstates in turns, rather than knocking both players out with a draw.

Please let me know if you have any questions, or suggestions, I'm always happy to talk.

Good to see success against Shardless, a MU that has been known to give us headaches.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by waz

the only time I went to time was when I had the lock in and my opponent did not realize he was dead.

---

I hate this. And every time I complain about getting a draw because "my opponent just did not realize that there was no way to win" it's always met with "top keks you're le Miracles player DAE it's always your fault if you draw" yea well you try getting Jace to 13 at a rate faster than +2 per turn. Fucking pisses me off. I realize I can't just expect them to concede but when they're spending a minute+ each turn thinking about how they can break out of the lock when there's literally no way to do so and I'm EOT Top for 2 seconds, draw and pass, they should do both of us a favor and scoop. But apparently Miracles players cannot ever have fast turns :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

Good to see success against Shardless, a MU that has been known to give us headaches.



I hate this. And every time I complain about getting a draw because "my opponent just did not realize that there was no way to win" it's always met with "top keks you're le Miracles player DAE it's always your fault if you draw" yea well you try getting Jace to 13 at a rate faster than +2 per turn. Fucking pisses me off. I realize I can't just expect them to concede but when they're spending a minute+ each turn thinking about how they can break out of the lock when there's literally no way to do so and I'm EOT Top for 2 seconds, draw and pass, they should do both of us a favor and scoop. But apparently Miracles players cannot ever have fast turns :rolleyes:

---

Lol thank you for this.

Soooo here's the playlist of saturdays matches. As I noticed too late that my recording software was a trial (that had ended), I couldn't record directly. Rerecorded them from the replays, again without commentary because of laziness. Sadly, due to it being replays, there are no waiting times inbetween actions, which makes the games pretty fast. Also, you don't see any CB flips, which is kind of strange. I'll have to skip the next two Legacy Challenges sadly (well, not sadly as the one in June is GP Prague, HYYYYPE), so I'll try to play the one in July. Maybe with commentary if I find a good way to blank out all the slurs and insults in our Skype conversation ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEL3...8OLU5rJZ1Zov-e Here's the playlist and there's the deck:

http://i.imgur.com/J2MDjtx.jpg

A few thoughts:

The whole tournament felt incredible awkward. I had spots of insane missfortune and was also inredibly lucky very often (see round 1, the swiss Miracle matches G1, the top 4 Miracle match, the Eldrazi matches, the swiss Miracle matches G2 and G3 and probably some other spots I missed). The horrendous missplay of the day was obv not taking a blue card in the last game. I immediately realized it after drawing the Wear / Tear.
The list itself is pretty solid, but that's about it. I'm thinking of doing something else for Prague, so hopefully there'll be some good League posting with a new list soon. The sideboard feels pretty well, although the Blood Moons are starting to drop in value. I still think they are very good and they probably deserve the slot, but the way the tournament went they were either very good oder very bad. Generally, I try to not include cards that have that big of a space inbetween, so there will probably also be some changes regarding the SB.

any thoughts on misdirection into the sb??

The only thing were I can really see Misdirection is Ancestral Vision and Hymn to Tourach. But boarding it only for the one matchup.. meh, seems to narrow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mort-

The only thing were I can really see Misdirection is Ancestral Vision and Hymn to Tourach. But boarding it only for the one matchup.. meh, seems to narrow.

---

i was thinking AV, Hymn, Abrupt Decay, FOW, pyroblast etc...

Hey guys! I'm new to Legacy and want to start with Miracles. However, I am curious about win cons. I have seen lists that use Entreat, Mentor, and even the Rest in Peace/Helm combo (are these lists outdated?). Which appears to be the best for a new Legacy player, and is it possible to play without the red splash? I can't get my hands on Volcanics at the moment but eventually will.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mort-

The only thing were I can really see Misdirection is Ancestral Vision and Hymn to Tourach. But boarding it only for the one matchup.. meh, seems to narrow.

---

I have misdirected Hymn back to Shardless player such that he has no hand, only lands in play, and he still won; all he needed was just little cascading action into vision, some lucky-bounce, chicken-dinner, card-advantage rains on him, he's right back into the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack

Hey guys! I'm new to Legacy and want to start with Miracles. However, I am curious about win cons. I have seen lists that use Entreat, Mentor, and even the Rest in Peace/Helm combo (are these lists outdated?). Which appears to be the best for a new Legacy player, and is it possible to play without the red splash? I can't get my hands on Volcanics at the moment but eventually will.
Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

---

Control decks in any format is to understand each MU. You need to know which cards are must-counter in any given MUs, this does not suit well for new-to-Legacy novice. Therefore, as long as you make good trades, use SDT efficiently (turn memorizing into a habit), it really doesn't matter what your win con is. People have won plenty of games using Jace or Clique or Snapcaster. Yes, it is possible to play any Legacy decks, are you asking if a Miracles player can win a Legacy tournament without red splash? You need to be more clear on the question.

2 mentor & 2 predict main are really good vs shardless.
Then post side i'm used to crush them with keranos

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by twndomn

I have misdirected Hymn back to Shardless player such that he has no hand, only lands in play, and he still won; all he needed was just little cascading action into vision, some lucky-bounce, chicken-dinner, card-advantage rains on him, he's right back into the game.



Control decks in any format is to understand each MU. You need to know which cards are must-counter in any given MUs, this does not suit well for new-to-Legacy novice. Therefore, as long as you make good trades, use SDT efficiently (turn memorizing into a habit), it really doesn't matter what your win con is. People have won plenty of games using Jace or Clique or Snapcaster. Yes, it is possible to play any Legacy decks, are you asking if a Miracles player can win a Legacy tournament without red splash? You need to be more clear on the question.

---

I mean is the deck playable without the splash. This is mostly for LGS events and the like.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack

I have seen lists that use Entreat, Mentor, and even the Rest in Peace/Helm combo (are these lists outdated?).

---

RIP/Helm is a special beast, which I play currently more as an act of love than out of any abstract analysis of its being better. It may not be, and I don't care. While many of the deck's games will play out like a more traditional Miracles deck would, other games don't feel "normal" at all. In addition to this, the deck has different matchups than the usual Ponder Miracles (I don't have experience with Legends so I cannot speak to that).

Take RUG and Shardless BUG for example. RUG is generally thought of as about even, but winnable, while Shardless is considered at least slightly unfavorable for Ponder Miracles. When you put 3 Rest In Peace into your main deck, however, things change. RUG's most important threats are blanked, and Shardless has a much more difficult time closing out the game: which they have to do before Helm of Obedience gets cast, and there's precious little in their deck that can answer this card.

Many Eldrazi decks, in addition to this, have a very hard time dealing with Energy Field / RIP lock, with most list I've seen just scooping up their cards game 1 against this combination. Postboard they'll have an answer, and if they find it, hopefully it can be Forced. The matchup is about even in my personal testing.

These improved matchups come with a heavy price. Mirror matches slip from even to unfavorable, as RIP/Helm attempts to oppose Snapcaster Mage and seemingly endless blasts with clunky, mana-intensive permanents that do little individually. Worse, just thinking about the play "Flickerwisp targeting Rest In Peace, Wasteland your Tundra, Energy Field sacrifice trigger?" makes me cringe.

As for whether the lists are "outdated," it's never been the most popular variant and hasn't had a lot of players pushing it for a long time, maybe ever. It's the type of deck that one wants a Moat for, especially right now, and this card isn't so easy to get hold of. It is theoretically sound, in the sense that if you're going to play a long game with a control deck you want permanents to do the heavy lifting, and very customizable given the presence of Enlightened Tutor in the main and/or side.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack

I mean is the deck playable without the splash. This is mostly for LGS events and the like.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

---

What's your meta like?

I personally think the red splash is necessary. You can just add a basic mountain and a Steam vents, and you're okay with the red splash.

Red blast is arguably our most important sideboard card. You simply need them in so many matchups.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lormador

Take RUG and Shardless BUG for example. RUG is generally thought of as about even, but winnable

---

RUG Delver is the most favorable out of all the flavors IMO (like 60/40 or better). The games we lose are close, but the games we win are blowouts. Playing around Stifle is easy, CB is an actual hard lock unlike against BU(r)G Delver, and they don't have problem non-creature permanents like Lilis, which show up occasionally in the decks running black.

I disagree, and consider the RUG Delver deck to be more difficult than the other tempo decks to deal with because of Stifle on my miracle spells and Nimble Mongoose. While it's true that they won't be breaking up my Counterbalance with a timely Abrupt Decay or dropping scary black permanents, I find the regular green or colorless permanents like Sylvan Library and Null Rod to be pretty strong.

Regardless, all of the Delver decks are strong and commonly played, and although RUG may or may not be on a downswing in some general sense, it's alive and well in my meta. BUG Delver doesn't like RIP much, either, because apparently Squire isn't too good in Legacy. Getting a few percentage points against these deck with Rest In Peace MD is a boon that the Helm decks offer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

RUG Delver is the most favorable out of all the flavors IMO (like 60/40 or better). The games we lose are close, but the games we win are blowouts. Playing around Stifle is easy, CB is an actual hard lock unlike against BU(r)G Delver, and they don't have problem non-creature permanents like Lilis, which show up occasionally in the decks running black.

---

Disagree. I don't need to repeat and go around in circle, I'll just quote, and I believe the discussion on that MU pretty much ends there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by oarsman

Taken alone that seems like trolling, even though I know it isn't. How do you not care about mana denial against RUG delver? It's practically the most important thing in the matchup. I would say the majority of the games Miracles loses to RUG involve Stifle/Wasteland in combination with taxing counters.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quasim0ff

What's your meta like?

I personally think the red splash is necessary. You can just add a basic mountain and a Steam vents, and you're okay with the red splash.

Red blast is arguably our most important sideboard card. You simply need them in so many matchups.

---

My meta (from what I know of) is 1 MUD (only seen him playing once. Sorry if this isn't a Legacy deck. I know it's in Vintage, I just saw artifacts, and Lodestone Golem and thought MUD.), 1 Eldrazi, 1 Infect, and 1 GB Reanimator (although the mainboard plays like Mono Black). This is what I've seen from people playing between rounds at FNM.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk