Cataclysm is also really good against Mono Red Prison.
Thraben U down 😔
Printable View
Cataclysm is also really good against Mono Red Prison.
Thraben U down 😔
And this is the kind of discussion I love to see.
@Medea_
What I would love to know is how many times have you drawn Cataclysm and been unable to cast it and died with it in hand because you didn't have the mana or been countered. That has always been my problem with CMC 4 non-creature spells and why both Cataclysm and Gideon have frustrated me. Cataclysm is, except for Miracles, essentially used to defeat deck without FoW, right? Those decks have been on the rise and Clysm is better because of it.
Medea_ also made a good point some time ago in the debate over Surgical v Faerie, which is that Surgical is an amazing card against Lands. Against Lands, even with Cataclysm, I want 2 RiP and 2 Surgical. The question, I guess, is whether or not we can reliably beat Lands with only 2 Surgical and 2 RiP. I don't think that helps vs. Miracles at all.
@Cataclysm_Beats_Mono-R_Prison
Yes, pretty much. It won't get rid of the last Ensnaring Bridge, but it will basically wipe out everything else and if their board is land/bridge/blood moon, that's fine with me.
@everyone
I really like the fact that Cataclysm is very strong against not just Lands, Miracles and Mono-R Prison, but also some other decks we see much more of now, namely Post, BG and Mid Depths, and Steel Stompy, which are basically 8% of the meta. I don't think PWs are any good against those decks.
Thanks for all the input.
Many very valid points in this discussion and I would like to add that I got the feeling people are better prepared for opposing PW's then they are against cards like Cataclysm. I will compare it with something I find my self quite often when playing against Miracles. Even though we are a control deck at heart at some point in this matchup we just have to try and pull the switch to make them have the Terminus. Sure you can win games in those grindy MU's by flying to Valuetown with Recruiter + Wisp, but im not a fan of leaning to strong in that direction.
With Cataclysm your opponents often just have to play into it because they cant beat it anyway or they a just not to familiar with the card.
I myself got a lot more practice with Gideon and he won me a lot of games as well but I will try to bring Cataclysm to full work this time.
A quick update to that 4x avenger 4x brightling list i posted. I was bringing in 2 cataclysm and 2 path to exile and boarding out 4 thalias against pile decks. The opposing strixes just weren't that big of a deal. lilly the last hope, k command and marsh casualties didnt feel like the fistings that they normally do. Found that the thalia tax on myself was doing more harm than good with this particular build where I dont want to grind value. Just trying to smash through with brute force so having the 1 mana removals for strix and drs to pave the way were better.
What is pushing DnT out of the DTB forum? I feel like it is just as strong as it has always been///
Too much Leovold.dec?
I don't understand what you mean when you say strixes "just weren't that big of a deal." What are you doing to their Baleful Strixes? Swordsing them? Trading with a Serra Avenger? Tapping Mom to attack and getting Mom killed? Casting Cataclysm???Quote:
Originally Posted by a tribe called trest
From the DTB discussion thread at the tope of Decks to Beat section:Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
"So how are decks selected for the DTBF?
Rather than relying on arbitrary selection or decision-making based on conjecture which can be tainted by personal bias, decks are selected for the DTBF based on their performance at recent, large, competitive Legacy tournaments. Decks which make up a very large portion of the metagame are considered DTB's." They then take the top 4.6% based on those results. DnT is apparently 1) being played by fewer players and 2) putting up fewer Top 32 results at "large, competitive events." You can see this month's tally for decks on the last page of the DTB Discussion thread.
For what it's worth, I don't board in Cataclysm vs Lands. The card is really only good if you already have RiP or Surgical on Loam. Otherwise they just rebuild infinitely faster than you.
The new Tormod's Crypt-spirit is nice. However, my heart sank a little bit when I saw that it has Toughness 1. Sigh. Another creature that dies to Marsh Casualties. I would caution people who want to cut down on Serra's Avenger and play Remorseful Reverend instead. We need flyers that can keep in the air and fly over True-Name, but not flyers that die along with Mother of Runes, Thalia, Flickerwisp, Phyrexian Revoker, Recruiter of the Guard, Vryn Wingmare and whatever else 1 Toughness creatures when your opponent casts Marsh Casualties or whatever else -1/-1-effect. I would LOVE this creature if it was 2/2.
So I understand where you are coming from, but using Marsh Casualties as an example is kind of a bad one, as when I play Czech pile, I often get to kick it and give -2/-2 against DnT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicar in a tutu
However, I get your drift, so to speak. I also agree the stats on Reverend are sub-optimal. I think that too often this will have to be played off vial in response to whatever is going on (Reanimate, Snapcaster/DRS target, whatever) to be used effectively, especially when playing against Tin Fins/Bizarro Stormy, who go off at instant speed (I understand we'll be hard-pressed to get vial to 2 before they go off, but it does happen). I'll of course be getting some, but I have doubts of it's true usefulness overall.
I was hoping for a 0/2 with both RIP effects for 1W or WW.
So while I am a big fan of Cataclysm, I appreciate a lot of the arguments against it. I've observed, as have others, that 4-mana non-creature spells can pose a host of problems for us. But I just had a crazy idea:
Why not put Shalai in the 4-mana SB slot?
She's good in most of the same matches we want the 4-mana non-creature spells for. She also randomly hoses other decks the way Cataclysm can, and provides positive pressure the way Gideon/Elspeth do. While she creates a bit of pressure on Vial numbers, having her makes your entire board state less vulnerable.
Is this brilliant, or merely crazy?
Reading is key.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Edit: I put 2 in my board to test back when I first wrote my quote.
Basically, yes. Bringing in additional 1 mana removal and using it aggressively on strix. Having them exiled keeps them off rebuying them with kcommand and lilly.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisCunningham
I believe @Medea_ has tested Shalai and despite being really good, it maybe fits better into a Maverick build (such as in Miranda Keith's list).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Darkview
I don't think the testing threshold has been met to make a decision about Shalai, especially with recent reports of other individuals giving Shalai credit for their strong finishes. It absolutely should see play in Maverick for the ability to actively utilize the pump effect as well as her protection, but I don't think she is able to be put off completely yet in DnT.
So then to repeat the question:Quote:
Originally Posted by redtwister
What is causing DnT to 1) be played by fewer players, 2) put up fewer top 32 results at “large competitive events” and hence get DnT moved out of the DtB forum that you can see the tally for on the last page of the DTB discussion thread?
I have recently switched from Maverick to DFD Taxes and love it but apparently the deck is losing ground; I am wondering why?
Quote:
Originally Posted by potentia
Agreed. My personal card scoring ranks her as one of the ten best non-land cards in overall matchup performance, but with a variance more akin to an SB card. This is why it may make more sense as an SB card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Basically, what happened was this. Everyone agreed Shalai was worth testing. Then they agreed Shalai was good. Then they ran into a few hiccups, mostly stemming from everyone playing more Karakas to fight Depths, or Delver where she's slow. And then Brightling came along and was the best thing we've gotten in years, and everyone forgot all about her. No one really continued testing, nor did anyone run with the results we'd discovered: excellent, but maybe inconsistent, don't we have a place for those cards?
Also, the way in which we've adapted to Brightling is synergistic with Shalai. Brightling has put many of us eager to play more lands, whereas for Shalai alone it might have been grudgingly. Also, Brightling displaced flyers in some builds, and Shalai can shore that up in matchups where it matters. Also, one of the few ways for your Brightling to get removed is to be hit with discard, especially instant speed like K. Command or V. Clique, and Shalai stops that.
I'm not saying, "This is definitely the future," but I do think it is worth considering in the same vein as PWs, Cataclysms, or extra Brightlings in the SB.
On this note, would it be too ambitious to run 2 Brightling and 1 Shalai MB? Though Shalai has flying, it is indeed slow vs. Serra Avenger and/or Vryn Wingmare. It feels like we should have more than 4 fliers (Flickerwisp) against Delver, preferably 6 fliers?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Darkview
I don't think it's too ambitious, though I wouldn't do it personally. I definitely wouldn't count on Shalai being fast enough versus Delver (though if she does ETB, she probably takes over the game), and I also like extra flyers. My current plan is to run Avengers until Remorseful Clerics are available to replace them. This will probably help the Delver matchup (being that it is a native 2-drop) and some others (by virtue of its activated ability), but will weaken the matchups against things like Eldrazi or the mirror. If you want to make the speed-vs-durability tradeoff right now, some people have had success with Selfless Spirit.Quote:
Originally Posted by potentia
I think a lot of lists are getting ambitious with trimming a lot of 2 drops, and playing too many 3s. There are some hard decisions for cuts that pilots are going to have to make pretty soon. Playing more than ~10-11 3 drops is going to be very difficult, and I feel like I'm already pushing my luck playing that many, even after cutting Batterskull. If you can find another 3 drop cut to run a maindeck 4 drop, I guess you could? It's possible that Brighling wants every mana you can spare after you untap with it, so I don't know if 4 drops in the maindeck is where I want to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by potentia
I agree we are greedy little piggies, but I think I'm fine with that. I want vial at 3 anyway.
The problem with so many 3 drips isnt that we play to few lands, but that we often dont curve well. Is a starting hand with 3 lands, vial and three 3 drops where you want to be?
The problem is, here, that Shalai does not do much versus Terminus/Supreme Verdict/Toxic Deluge. On the contrary, it gives you an incentive to extend your board, under the protection of Shalai. So that's an issue that's not to be understated. And the only way Gideon gets removed from the battlefield by Miracle is through Council Judgment's, which also answer Shalai btw, and Czech Pile have an even harder time dealing with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Darkview
Except vs. storm-combo, where I want it at 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
That depends. Against some decks I will keep this, especially if those lands are Plains, Port, Wasteland.Quote:
Originally Posted by Siracho
Except it does. Karakas-protection has always been in consideration for Shalai, and losing 2 guys to a board wipe isn't the end of the world when you can subsequently replay Shalai. Also, throwing down Prelate under Shalai becomes a very real possibility for blocking a lot of board wipes, or throwing down some dominating offensive threat like Mirran Crusader to just close the game on its own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mannaus
Every opponent also has answers to Gideon, whether Strix + Bolt, Clique, TNN, or anything else. Shalai forces the opponent into a very narrow path, which they're less likely able to tread.
Oh, and flying is really good.
Well, I meant she does not protect herself. You need the small combo Karakas + legendary. Plus, good Miracle players will bring in their Blood Moons, if they're on Jeskai ofc, versus DnT, to shut off Port and recursive Thalia's. So this is also something to be taken into account, when competing her with Gideon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Darkview
In general, I am not sure that relying on specific synergies is the way to go. Synergies are what makes our deck a deck, but one cannot rely on a specific setup to win, or hedge against a specific deck. Our threats need to be self-sufficient. Of course, one day you'll have the perfect setup, and no one will come close to threatening you. But most of the time you won't, and those are the times that matter. And that's why I believe Gideon is a better 4-drop. It's just more reliable, and works on its own. Of course, sometimes you'll get wrecked, and Gideon won't do anything, but I doubt any other card would really matter in those circumstances anyway. Taking a precise setup of cards, or sequence of plays, is not a good way to point out the power-level of a card, because we always find the setups in which the card is insane/really bad. What counts, is how it fares on average.
And here I must admit I didn't play Shalai enough to back my thoughts with statistics. So maybe you're right, and indeed she's a better 4-drop ouf of the board than Gideon. I guess time, and results, will tell.
This is all fair. Back to Basics is also in the Miracles toolkit. That said, this is really the only match where I'd worry about it. Many of them don't bother with Moon or B2B after game 1 against us, because we tend to manage those effects just fine (12 Basics + 4 Vials does that), and thus a Shalai out of the board may find Karakas unchecked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mannaus
As for synergies, Karakas is not our only option there. Mom + Shalai is untargetable, which basically locks out most of Delver's options other than Deluge. Prelate can also close those options down. Shalai is not about one synergy, but many possible synergies, and is fairly solid on her own. That is the story with most of the cards in our deck. Only a very few, like Brightling, are mostly self-contained in their excellence. So Shalai being good on her own, and excellent with support is not a bug, but rather a feature.
As for this specific bit:
Well, that line tells me you clearly haven't played with Cataclysm enough to judge its effectiveness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mannaus
As long as it works for you and you like your choices mate, it's all fine to me. Just explaining how I'm reasoning when assessing a card, and explaining why I would rather go for Gideon over Shalai in the sideboard. It's obviously all up for debate, which is part of what makes Legacy (and DnT) such an interesting format. In the end, it's all about having thought through it, and be confident in one's choices, plus a little bit of luck on the day of the tournament.
By the way, are you the same Darkview that's also active on the Discord channel?
Either that, or I'm impersonating someone eminently unimportant.
Could I get an invite to said Discord channel?
Thanks. I'll be testing a list w/1 Cleric, 2 Brightling, 2 Shalai, 24th land later today. Will report back.
Shalai and Brightling MB both? Or Brightling MB, Shalai SB?
All MB. Greedy for sure, but I'm curious. SB is same as Phil's.
As posted some days ago I went to a local Legacy Tournament in northern Germany (http://www.eternal-clash.com/start/). This time we were 69 Players (quite good for the fact that Germany had a matchday in the World Cup). So 7 rounds of swiss into Top 8.
I played this:
Lands (23):
1 Cavern
3 Karakas
4 Port
4 Wasteland
11 Plains
Creatures (26):
1 Sanctum Prelate
2 Brightling
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Recruiter
3 Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 SfM
4 Mother
4 Flickerwisp
Others (11):
4 Vial
4 Swords
1 Batterskull
1 SoFaI
1 Jitte
Sideboard:
1 Relic-Warder
1 SoWaP
1 Containment Priest
2 RiP
2 Extraction
2 Canonist
2 Path to Exile
2 Judgement
2 Cataclysm
Round 1 against Sneak & Show - 2:1
G1 Lost against T4 Show & Tell = Emrakul
G2 Won with Thalia + Waste + Brightling as a normal 3/3 Beatstick
G3 Won with Wasteland on Volc and oppo couldnt find enough Lands fast enough
Round 2 against 4C Pile - 2:0
G1 Opponent played 4 Strix + Leo and some stuff but I got 4 Vials + 1 early and 1 late Crusader
G2 Opponent kept Usea + Island and 2 DRS but he never found a red source and died with Bolt, K Command, Grudge in hand.
Round 3 against Lands - 2:0
G1 Prelate on 2 and Revoker for Vortex, he died to his own Chasm
G2 RiP + Grind against Tabernacle, he missed his own trigger for his Tracker and died to Prelate some turns later
Round 4 against Burn - 2:1
G1 Swords for this turn one Guide, got some dmg from Swiftspear + Eidolon but a second SfM gets Batterskull online which takes over the game
G2 Lost against Swiftspear into Searing Blaze on SfM, Smash on my SoWaP ends me quite well
G3 very tight where I handle his threads with 2 Swords + 1 Path and creeping back in life with SoWaP but only 2 cards in hand. Me on 8 Life my oppo taps out for Firecraft and I have Thalia with Vial so he cant cast his Fireblast as well
Round 5 against 12 Post - 0:2
G1 I have a turn with 2 Wasteland but my opponent got Elvish Spirit Guide + untapped Forest + 2 Crop Rotation to blank my plays....pretty big board on my side which even can survive a Emrakul attack, I Vial in a Flickerwisp to shorten my clock targeting my Recruiter to get another Wisp. Opponent plays maindeck Warping Wail. He was then able to generate "25" Mana for hardcast Emrakul + Ulamog. Misplayed here should have played the Mana Denial plan with Port instead of shorten the clock.
G2 I played a Cataclysm when he would have been able to cast Ulamog or Ugin on his turn. He had 4 cards in hand so I guess the Cataclysm was timed well. He only had Lands + Krosan Grip in Hand and I never saw more lands and I lose this game as well.
Round 6 against DnT - 1:1
G1 Im the one who connects with Jitte first
G2 Grindy game where we both have active Mothers + Revoker my Opponent plays Gideon at some point where he maybe could climb back into the game one turn later he plays a rly bad Cataclysm loses his Gideon and im Left with SfM + Jitte and he only with a Mom and a Needle on Vial. He has a lot of life at this point and I get him down to 3 and then to one, at this point I only have to draw one more land to win the game but 7 Turns later I lose the Game.
Round 7 against BR Reanimator - 2:1
G1 Weird and grindy until he races me with a Chancelor
G2 Surgical on his turn 1 reanimate on Griselbrand, some turns later I manage to win with Karakas in play and Path on Tyrant
G3 I mull on 6 and my Oppo even to 5. I have wasteland for his Badlands which he has to play for a Looting turn 1. On his 2 turn he has a window to find exactly Reanimate with his one Mana left. He didnt and I play RiP and lock up the Top 8
So 5/1/1 and 4th place after swiss
TOP 8:
Quarters against DnT (same players as before) - 2:0
G1 Good draw with Mom, SfM and so on. Jitte connects and l win some turns later.
G2 A bit grindy but after some minor and one major misplay from my opponent I have Batterskull, SoWaP and Jitte in play.
Semis against 12 Post (again...) - 0:2
G1 TKS + Conduit of Ruin makes it impossible for me to attack on the ground and I die to a second Conduit
G2 I manage to get some early dmg in then he plays Conduit again putting Ulamog on top of his Library. Again I play (imo) a well timed Cataclysm keeping a Wisp to have a 3 Turn clock in the air. Again I cant find a land to the right time and a topdecked Expedition Map for Glimmerpost and 3 Life makes it possible for him to stay in the Game and one turn later he resolves his Ulamog.
Again a good result with some weird results...
Brightling wasnt as important as I wished. Beatstick against Sneak & Show but never saw him in important MU's (Burn, 4C).
SoWaP was sideboard MVP again
I played 3 times Cataclysm this day and one was played against me. I would say the ones I played where necessary and timed quite well but everytime a Cataclysm was resolved in a game I played today...I Lost. Gideon wouldnt have been better or something in those situations. I guess it was just not the day for the Clysm.
Lost 2 Matches today and both against the same player.
24th land is a good idea with that build.
Maybe it is a tricky question/issue but to the more experienced: how do you use statistics to base your testing? I mean, information is hardly ever enough, yet how many matches played with a certain deck against specific other decks are "enough" data to try to come to a conclusion on a "fixed decklist" for D&T?
Additionally, I imagine intensive testing is done on MTGO. During these testings are 'opponent playing level' considered or it's considered random enough?
I can't speak for everyone else, but I largely put every match into a personal SmartMagic Spreadsheet, and go from there. I don't try to make determinations based on factors like skill level as there are too many things to take into account (level of overall talent, familiarity with legacy, practice with their specific deck, level of focus, fatigue, luck, and so forth). There has to be a pretty good reason for me not to count a match (like: my opponent straight-up concedes to me to go get food). But these are a reflection of my play as much as they are the strength of overall pairings.Quote:
Originally Posted by potentia
While there is not an agreed "optimal list," and such a list would vary by metagame, there are certain points of general agreement that basically all reasonably successful players agree on after playing something approaching 100 matches. Examples might be, "Turbo Depths is an easy match," "Elves is almost unwinnable," "Prioritize Thalia turn 2 against an unknown opponent playing blue, black, or red," and so on. So while there are going to be some disagreements (see the heated debate over 4-mana SB cards above), there is a lot that is fairly fixed and invariant across the population.
Thanks for the link to the spreadsheet. I had one of my own but this spreadsheet is way better!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Darkview
What other sources for Legacy D&T content do you follow? Regarding streamers on Twitch, who else is worth following aside from Phil?
My local $15 event only had 8 players so we played 3 rounds. Went 2-0-1. Brightling is a champ and a half.