Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
princeofperasia
.
kudos.
Also: I've come to favour Snare over Pierce too.
Fellow Sourcers claiming it's really only useful again Hymn/Sylvan Library/Bob do underestimate it.
--> I'd like to add: Gaddock, CB, PoP, YP, Thalia, Revoker, SotL, SFM, SCM, Goyf (yes, still a thing), B. Wish, Infernal Tutor, CS, Exhume, Animate Dead, Chalice @1 - just to name a few.
Of course the pro of being nicer during the late-game, while also good at helping to make it through the early mid-game should be common knowledge.
The availability of Council's Judgement to deal with problematic permanents, Pierce may - but Snare won't catch (Jace, Lili, Keranos etc.) should be MD Pierce's nail in the coffin imo. And I think they'll even disappear from SBs, as Blasts and Flusterstorms handle specific scenarios better - again Council's Judgement potentially even makes SB Pierces obsolete.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einherjer
Congratulations to all of you who took (slight alterations of) my list to tournaments and did well with it! It's great to see that you have success with it aswell! Keep it up!
Greetings
Amazing. I was wondering who invented the archetype. I guess we all have you to thanks for miracles. :tongue:
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Yeah, the only thing I changed after GP Paris was adding a second Ponder. My sideboard/sideboards in general are always changing. Besides that I considered maind eck blasts for quite some time :P and used 1 ReB in the main @ the latest BoM ^_^. Still not moving to 4 Ponder btw xD! Will probably never get at that point, with that new card showing up.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Took the 2-Ponder Ein's list for a spin, defeated some typical decks, but lost to Shardless bug.
Last year when I was running Lossett's list with Misdirection and Venser, I even Misdirected a Hymn from Shardless bug, he had no hand. Then he top-deck into Shardless Agent into blindly flipping Ancestral Vision to get himself back into the game. :really:
Now it's an interesting time to play Miracle, things people are experimenting:
1. Keranos - feels like a win-more to me.
2. Councils Judgement - definitely worthy of testing, more incentive to play Snapcaster-Ponder build
3. 2-Ponder, 4-Ponder, I personally want to fiddle around with Personal Tutor, just because I'm bored.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Dear Miracle pilots,
I am RUG Delver pilot and I am wondering if you all have any thoughts about whether or not it is correct to Force of Will Sensei's Divining Top against you guys. The biggest name in RUG Delver Jacob Wilson espouses that it's better to let Miracles players resolve their Tops and let them use their mana each turn on it, and this is the gameplan I have been running here-to-fore. However, I keep to losing Oarsmen on MODO with this strategy. It seems that Sensei's Diving Top is really the lynchpin of your strategy, and that your Counterbalance and Miracles would be much less effective, and my taxing counters will be much more effective against you if you aren't making land drops. So I am just wondering if y'all have any opinions on this.
Edit: Terrible typos
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Hei Guys
3th Place with this List on a 20-25 People Tournament and first Place a Italian Tabernacle >*.*
*Punishing Miracle*
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Terminus
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Punishing Fire
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Island
1 Plains
2 Spell Pierce
1 Karakas
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Supreme Verdict
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Disenchant
Round 1 against Merfolk 2:0
Round 2 against Forget it but i won 2:0^^
Round 3 against Ur Delver 2:0
then draw and draw into top 8
Top 8
quarter:
2:0 Uwr Miracle (Punishing Wins)
then in the half i lost 1:2 against a Esperbladetempo list :(
No Tabernacle for me, but after this Match i was playing for the 3th Place against Shardless BUG and won 2:0 (Punishing Fire wins)
So i won a Polluted Delta.;)
Punishing Fire is very good right now and i very like this Version of Miracle. It do make the bader Match ups better like Shardless BUG or the Mirror.
It Seems greedy but it isnt that greedy. I think Punishing Miracle have a lot Potential in it.
Greets from Switzerland
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BKclassic
Dear Miracle pilots,
I am RUG Delver pilot and I am wondering if you all have any thoughts about whether or not it is correct to Force of Will Sensei's Divining Top against you guys. The biggest name in RUG Delver Jacob Wilson espouses that it's better to let Miracles players resolve their tops and let them use their mana each turn on it, and this is the gameplan I have been running here-to-fore. However, I keeps losing Oarsmen on MODO with this strategy. It seems that Sensei's Diving Top is really the lynch pin of your strategy, and that your Counterbalancer and Miracles would be much less effective, and my taxing counters will be much more effective against you if you aren't making land drops. So I am just wondering if y'all have any opinions on this.
I think Jacob is right. Daze/pierce a top if you can, but don't force it. Yes, top is amazing and holds everything together, but RUG is not a deck that should be forcing top. Decks like esper should force top, because the game will go long and top will collect too much value. But if the game goes long against Miracles, the game is already lost.
Sometimes we don't really need top, sometimes we have 2 or even 3 in hand. Yes, there are games where we keep shaky 1 land + top hands, but you can't really know that. And if you force the top, then you wont have a force for the StP or Terminus thats going to get cast eventually.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BKclassic
Dear Miracle pilots,
I am RUG Delver pilot and I am wondering if you all have any thoughts about whether or not it is correct to Force of Will Sensei's Divining Top against you guys.
I played Canadian for a long time and am playing Miracles since a few months. And I can tell you from my experience of this matchup from both sides: You want to counter Top at all costs.
It's your goal as Canadian pilot to kill the miracles deck before it stabilises on it's way for the nearly certain win in the lategame. Top is the key card to help Miracles to achieve that.
I would even recommend to play Pithing Needle, Null Rod or Phyrexian Revoker in your sideboard to fight them better in potential second and third games.
Best,
acid
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BKclassic
Dear Miracle pilots,
I am RUG Delver pilot and I am wondering if you all have any thoughts about whether or not it is correct to Force of Will Sensei's Divining Top against you guys. The biggest name in RUG Delver Jacob Wilson espouses that it's better to let Miracles players resolve their Tops and let them use their mana each turn on it, and this is the gameplan I have been running here-to-fore. However, I keep to losing Oarsmen on MODO with this strategy. It seems that Sensei's Diving Top is really the lynchpin of your strategy, and that your Counterbalance and Miracles would be much less effective, and my taxing counters will be much more effective against you if you aren't making land drops. So I am just wondering if y'all have any opinions on this.
Edit: Terrible typos
In the games where I have Top and hit my first 4 land drops, I'm probably something like 80% to win that game. RUG can beat Top with a strong mana-denial hand, or a threat heavy draw where you can run them out of removal by forcing 1-for-1 trades.
Interesting that Jacob Wilson (who is extremely skilled with RUG) says that Top will cause us to use our mana - we're going to be playing around Daze when possible anyway and using that extra mana for an EOT Top activation is about as efficient as it gets. I'll only be proactively Topping if I need to hit removal or a land drop, and in those situations I am probably stone dead without Top.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Misplayer
In the games where I have Top and hit my first 4 land drops, I'm probably something like 80% to win that game. RUG can beat Top with a strong mana-denial hand, or a threat heavy draw where you can run them out of removal by forcing 1-for-1 trades.
This is not exactly true. When you are playing against a deck with Stifle and Wasteland and you have fetchlands in play, even if you hit your first 4, might or might not become real lands. You can have 4 lands in play at one of your earlier turn, then have only 2 lands at your later turn.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BKclassic
Dear Miracle pilots,
I am RUG Delver pilot and I am wondering if you all have any thoughts about whether or not it is correct to Force of Will Sensei's Divining Top against you guys. The biggest name in RUG Delver Jacob Wilson espouses that it's better to let Miracles players resolve their Tops and let them use their mana each turn on it, and this is the gameplan I have been running here-to-fore. However, I keep to losing Oarsmen on MODO with this strategy. It seems that Sensei's Diving Top is really the lynchpin of your strategy, and that your Counterbalance and Miracles would be much less effective, and my taxing counters will be much more effective against you if you aren't making land drops. So I am just wondering if y'all have any opinions on this.
Edit: Terrible typos
No, do not Force the top, except in rare circumstances such as:
(1) They already have Counterbalance on the board with few cards in hand, and you're likely to burn them out.
(2) You've Probed them on the play, and they kept a one lander with one Top and no Cantrips.
(3) You have five mana open and they are in topdeck mode.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
FoWing Top might be a stronger play from a BUG Delver deck or something that plans on going a little bit longer. I think FoWing a Top is fine for RUG, and depending on my hand, I might even FoW back. Being able to ensure land drops is very key against RUG. I'd guess that whether they should FoW or not greatly depends on how aggressive their hand is. If there are a lot of Delvers, Dazes, and Stifles then they should be fine riding Delver out, but if they are going to have to wait for Mongoose to reach Threshold before they get a decent clock then there's a good chance that they can't afford to let you have Top out.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
catmint
Unless you play against anti rug lists like einjerhers old one, Canadian has by far the best miracles matchup of all delver decks.
I've always found RUG to be the easiest Delver matchup and by a lot. I've heard people say before that it has the better Miracles MU, but I have no idea why. REB and Flusterstorm keep Stifle under control and RIP and Counterbalance are both massive bombs. Supreme Verdict (or Terminus) easily cleans up the board. BUG has Decay and Liliana and even UWR has card advantage and some removal insurance in SFM.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tormod
Amazing. I was wondering who invented the archetype. I guess we all have you to thanks for miracles. :tongue:
Not correct. He finished well at a GP with the list and then people tried his list and went well. Lets cool down the godliness of Einherjer a little =)
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Hi guys,
regarding Keranos:
I have tested him yesterday in my Sideboard and brought him in against the Mirror and against UWr landstill. Both times he was amazing and won me the games.
Regarding the Canadian Threshhold discussion:
I personally went away from Canadian to Miracles. And can tell something about both sides.
First when Canadian tries to use the Stifles to manascrew Miracles (granted Miracles is constantly deploying Lands). The canadian pilot surely deserves to loose.
Next FoW and Top: A tricky one.
It depends if its G1, what Land he starts on and his generell behaviour. I guess forcing the best card in my opponents Deck could be worth it, esp. when my plan is to go for the fast Delvers and Bolts.
Oh and Bug delver is a worse matchup then Canadian. because Bug can grind you really hard and they can handle cb quite elegantly (even G1). Rug cant do that, only with grip which can and should always be played around.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
catmint
With the correct SB you can also play a long game post board by siding out wasteland (virtual card advantage) and bringing hard counter (snare, REB, fluster) for the only cards that matter (cb, entreat, rip) and pretty much ignore everything else they do.
That's so true. Many people do not understand that RUG can easily be a dominant force in the lategame. Some just don't. I had a very amusing conversation on Twitter last week involving GerryT, Julian and some other guys... but we couldn't come to an conclusion - because debating strategy is tough when you are limited to tweets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
useL
Not correct. He finished well at a GP with the list and then people tried his list and went well. Lets cool down the godliness of Einherjer a little =)
Unless you next-level me with this one: Tormod's remark was a sarcastic one. It amused me pretty well.
And no, nobody may cool down my godliness! (and just to make it clear for you: --> that's sarcasm too!)
Greetings
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
After playing the deck at 3 weekly tournaments, I finally made top 4 after going 4-1-1 with straight UW miracles with Back to Basics on the board. The list I played was:
Creatures
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Entreat the Angels
4 Terminus
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Marsh Flats (I'm in the process of getting better fetchlands. One more Flooded Strand is on the way)
7 Islands
3 Plains
1 Karakas
2 Tundra
Sideboard
3 Meddling Mage (these have not been great but I don't own any flusterstorms currently. I'm wondering if I should replace them with other counterspells)
3 Rest in Peace
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Detention Sphere
2 Pithing Needle
2 Back to Basics
1 Disenchant
at my LGS, we play 6 rounds swiss with no playoffs. Prizes go to top 4 plus any players at the same points as the 4th. In practice this means 4-1-1 gets prizes. My matches were:
Round 1 - MUDpost
In my experience, this match can go either way, depending on how they draw. Game 1 was pretty much impossible, since he played 4 cloudposts in 5 turns, landing a Trinisphere on turn 2 that I couldn't counter. Eventually he had staff of domination and 28 mana per turn, so I lost. I boarded in Needles, Back to Basics, and Disenchant. Game 2 I lead with land, top, he plays tomb, Chalice on 1, which resolves. I'm not too worried since I have 2 lands in hand as well as a back to basics. I take my second turn, playing a land, and he plays a Cloudpost and passes the turn. I untap, play a land, and play back to basics. He groans, takes his turn, plays a City of Traitors and taps out for a Lodestone Golem. I untap myself, disenchant the golem and pass the turn. The game gets easy from there. Game 3 I keep a hand with a top, he plays turn 1 Cloudpost. I play turn 1 top. He untaps, plays a second cloudpost and a grim monolith. I look at the top on my upkeep and see a back to basics. I put that at the top, play a second land and pass. He plays one more cloudpost and taps out for Karn Liberated. I force Karn, then untap and play back to basics again, after which he scoops
1-0
Round 2 - Death and Taxes
I don't remember too much about this match, except that it was very hard, since he got vial down on t1 both games, and on game 2 I tried to answer it with engineered explosives but he played ratchet bomb to kill my explosives before I could blow up the vial. He eventually got Thalia/Vial/Karakas on both games, and I could not answer that. Notably, I did not board in back to basics, which maybe I should've brought in one of them, since it shuts down both port and karakas.
1-1
Round 3 - RUG Delver
Game one was very long, but once I had 2 Islands and 2 Plains in play, I was in a good spot. I terminused a bunch, Supreme Verdicted as well, and eventually won by landing Entreat the Angels. I was worried about him forcing, so I sandbagged entreat until I saw a second one. Game 2 I lost to a turn 1 delver that I couldn't answer in time. We went into game 3 with 10 minutes left. I managed to land a fairly early entreat for 2, but then he landed 2 True Name Nemesis one after the other. He didn't wasteland my Tundra which allowed me to cast a second entreat and win the race with 1 life left.
2-1
Round 4 - Nic Fit
We had a 35 minute long game 1 here, where I somehow managed to come back from being at 3 life with my opponent having deed, grave titan, and DRS in play and me not being able to find a terminus. I played Jace and found an entreat, so I bounced the grave titan, Entreated for 2 forcing my opponent to blow up his deed, killing his own zombie tokens. My opponent then GSZ'd for Ruric Thar, which left me in a horrible situation. I untapped, bounced the ruric thar, STPd the DRS, then played brainstorm from my hand to find Terminus to put on top and be able to counter both ruric thar and grave titan with Counterbalance. My opponent tried to play ruric thar, which I countered, so he brainstormed and played Liliana. I could not find a 3 on the top, so she resolved. We both discard and my opponent discards grave titan. I keep brainstorming with jace, looking for an answer to Liliana. I don't find anything for 2 turns, so Liliana is up to 5 and we're both hellbent. Finally he plays a Maelstrom pulse targeting my jace, and I don't have any 3's on top. I crack a fetchland and spin the top again and I see Clique. YES! I counter maelstrom pulse with clique, then untap and pass the turn. He makes us discard once more, and I respond with Clique. I take his Liliana down to 3 and start fatesealing. Liliana kills my clique but I can get to ultimate jace before he can ultimate liliana, and he doesn't find anything else. He scoops, and I breathe for the first time in 15 minutes. We go into game 2 with 10 minutes left on the clock, which I'm pretty happy about. Nevertheless, my opponent mulligans and I have everything in this matchup. He sacrifices a veteran explorer with Phyrexian tower to play something that I counter, and I end up Entreating for 2 angels and then for 6 2 turns later for the win.
3-1
Round 5
Here I was lucky enough to run into a very budget dead guy ale deck. He didn't really stand much of a chance, and I won easily 2-0 in around 15 minutes total.
4-1
Round 6
I get paired on table 1 with a guy that was 4-0 until the last round, then just lost. I know he's on elves, but we can both make prizes by ID'ing.
All in all I'm pretty happy with the result. I didn't meet any combo yesterday, which is unusual, but I really need to do something about those Meddling mages. They have been super underwhelming pretty much every time, and I don't know what to replace them with. Again, I don't have any flusterstorms, so I'm not sure what to put in their place. Any suggestions are welcome.
Thanks for reading!
43
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FortyThree
All in all I'm pretty happy with the result. I didn't meet any combo yesterday, which is unusual, but I really need to do something about those Meddling mages. They have been super underwhelming pretty much every time, and I don't know what to replace them with. Again, I don't have any flusterstorms, so I'm not sure what to put in their place. Any suggestions are welcome.
If you're worried about StormCombo, Ethersworn Canonist does a much better job than Meddling Mage, while also being affordable - though I'd consider maxing out on Pierces before adding E. C. (given you can't get a hold on Flusterstorms) - a 2/2 SB split seems reasonable to me, actually.
Edit:
I'm aware I've argued against Enlightened Tutor SBs recently, however if your opting for E. C alongside B2B you'd have quite a few targets and could eventually go with a 15 along those lines:
1 ET
2 EC
1 B2B
2 RiP
1 Needle
1 EE
1 D. Sphere (though Council's Judgment will be an upgrade)
1 Batterskull (filling Baneslayer's role, while being re-usable and ET-fetchable)
1 S. Verdict
1 STP
1 Disenchant
2 Pierce
