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The fetch + massacre was mentioned for D&T, not for Delver. Don't look for definitive and easy answers for various scenarios. I feel that between CoV, boarded Grapeshot, Pyroblasts and 2cc Sweepers aka Wish into Massacre you should manage to fight back hatebears and the Patriot menaceQuote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
I appreciate the advice, I admittedly dont have a ton of experience, so i'll keep my head up and see what I can figure out. I actually had a really drawn out, close match against patriot delver last night. i got the overall win, but if i had been more aware of massacre opportunities, maybe i couldve just crushed it, so i'll watch that and see what i can pick up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I'd probably play the 7th discard over the 2nd C.Rit. that's so much mana 10 rituals + LED's + petals, looks liek you may get clogged on mana and not action. These are the worst times IMO. To me the beauty of TES lies in the knife's edge you run on to close out games. It is the tempo combo deck in that one small mistake on turn 1 will cost you the game in my mind. Like playing tempo ekeing out and capitlilzing on the small misplays/ small margins is where you will get games and really boost your win percentage.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrettF
I like the IT side but upon thinking about it some more having 10 action game one and then falling to 9 in g2, g3 is fine. and that line(BW>IT>AN) costs a bajillion mana (but i guess in this config it is very doable), Other than PiF lines how relevant is C.Rits threshold?
TL;DR: I'd rather have more disruption than mana.
I agree with what he said, but I'm more intested in knowing how good cabal rituals work out for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomasDowd
The reason I play TES is so that I can just dump my hand and make goblins if I get the right read from my opponent and cabal ritual doesn't seem to fit too well into that plan.
Are there times where cabal ritual feels like an all-star and not just a 'win more' card in your configuration?
The cabal rituals open up a lot more late-game options for tutor chaining, PIF loops, and Burning for Infernal for AdNauseam. As a side effect of all those options becoming much better, you almost never need to grab diminishing returns. The OP list may be ideal for an open meta and jamming ETW on turn 1, but if you find yourself playing out the mid-game against blue decks a lot, the cabal rituals pick up some serious slack.
Royce and I played in a 142 man Legacy event yesterday. I finished 14th and he finished 4th, we both ran two Cabal Rituals with an Infernal in the SB, no Diminishing Returns.
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
3 Chrome Mox
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam
Sideboard
1 Tropical Island
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Pyroblast
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Thoughtseize
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Massacre
1 Past in Flames
I brought it up to Royce that I never once discarded a creature with the MD Thoughtseize. He runs Duress over them, I may follow suit and switch back. He opted to not run Massacre and run the second Chain of Vapor - Although, without Thoughtseize I think the Massacre gains more weight. The idea behind Cabal Ritual is that it provides enough mana to be able to Wish for Infernal for Ad Nauseam making Returns something of the past, it also makes our tertiary win condition, Past in Flames, a lot more reliable and robust. I was very happy with the list for the most part, I lost a round to Eric English with Food Chain that I should've won and then was defeated by an above average draw from Team America. It happens.
It sounds like focusing more on the potential of threshold and PiF makes you more grave-dependent, and one of the things I like about this deck in general is the ability to ignore such cards a lot of the time. Did you ever feel like the increases interaction with the graveyard was a liability? Also, did the reduced amount of discard spells ever present a challenge?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Since no other manasources were taken out for the Cabal Rituals you're not really more graveyard depend then before. Sure if your only rituals are CRit you can get harmed by GY-hate though before you wouldn't have the mana to do anything so that point is mood.
At the end Cabal does the same withouthaving 7 cards in grave like a single rite of flame (+1mana). So its not a big problem.
The thing on going down in discard is what makes me doubt usualy the correct disruption number is 7 in all decks (magic number).
I think saying 7 is "correct" is an oversimplification. Sure, you're one discard spell lighter, which might lose you some games against combo or control, but you now have extra percentages against discard and in a weird way the extra mana spells can increase the percentage of those "belcher" hands for going off in the face of hatebears. the ability to power BBBBB out of a ritual can also lets you play around a few soft counters, which can be as good as a discard spell, in that it made the counter irrelevant. against RUG Delver, where you'd want discard for Stifle and get pressured on lands to the point where Cabal Ritual is unappealing in sequencing, for example, you can still just play Pyroblast instead postboard, which beats those cards youd want to discard, while buying time against Delver and splitting the disruption among 2 colors. trading points in matchups you feel arent as relevant to improve ones you feel are more relevant in the meta is just good strategic development.Quote:
Originally Posted by Togores
one thing you could consider is another Thoughtseize in the sb, if you expect a lot of combo or hatebears and would really be missing the other mb discard. but there arent many other appealing cards to shave for the second cabal rit, imo. ponder is maybe the most expendable, and even then youd be just shaving psuedo business when the deck is now one business spell lighter already. i think the interesting interaction there is that you can side in the other infernal tutor then anyway, since that loss would be felt most against decks youd want to combo quickly against. the main point is that discard tends to not beat discard decks, whereas an improved PiF line does.
I think the efficacy of Thoughtseize vs Duress depends on the number of MD Vendilion Cliques and SB Meddling Mages you expect to face, I've played with both and generally prefer to be prepared for the worst case scenario i.e. I play Thoughtseize instead of Duress.
I agree with SBing an Infernal Tutor and I don't mind cutting the 7th disruption card, but I'm not certain you should cut Diminishing Returns or play Cabal Ritual over lands if you're trying to go to the late(r) game mainly because we don't have the same number of Fetchlands as ANT has in order to reach Threshold, the same number of Cabal Rituals in order to reach BBBBB.
Personally I'd rather fit every land and fetch land I can into the deck at this point, that's guaranteed consistency.
I haven't played this list, so I'll put my objections to 2 Volcanic 4 fetch in a deck with threshold cards aside and ask a question: How often do you use the sideboarded Infernal Tutor? Do you find that the CRits enable BW->IT->AdN or similar plays enough to cut a copy of the best business spell from your main?
I don't think Infernal Tutor is the best business spell in the MD, it's often the most redundant business spell in the MD if the game goes long(er) and you should be used to playing Infernal Tutor in the SB regardless because you SB it games 2/3 in almost every match up vs Islands. I find with the additional lands and shuffle effects in the deck ~9 business is about the right number.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamuth
I find I wish for it vs Miracles really often.
If you're that worried about those cards swap out the pair of Duress for the Pyroblasts and side in the Thoughtseize as well. I just haven't been using it as anything other than another Duress, simply no reason to lose life at this point - if the metagame switches back to more hatebears so will we.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
I didn't miss Diminishing Returns at all, one thing Royce and I did notice was how much better Past in Flames was.
Don't be so aggressive! I still want Gemstone Mines, we need to be able to support our green cards out of the sideboard. Not to mention, Gemstone Mine does kill itself! In hands where I opened with both, I played Gemstone first and actively tapped it, even on my opponents' end steps for no reason just to get it in the graveyard faster.
Congratulation Royce and Bryant, nice to see that cabal ritual performed well - it was very obvious: who doesn't want to have more copies of black lotus in the deck.
- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -
Out of curiosity, did the lower amount of disruption ever make things more difficult or risky for you? Also, do you feel that the subtle shift to more mana cards, relative to business/disruption, makes sideboarding more awkward?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
I didn't notice the lack of disruption, but I did notice more mana made plowing through soft counters MUCH easier. Sideboarding was a little awkward, mostly because I wasn't sure on what to do yet. I believe that in fast match-ups where we need protection we should be siding out Cabal Rituals, but in fast match-ups where we don't need it (Such as Elves/D&T) we board in the land and tutor instead. I'm still in the process of figuring it all out.Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
The thing I thought would make siding tricky is that commonly you'd side a tutor out, and now thats already done, so it could get awkward there. I think I'd be most concerned about, say, a combo mirror where the one fewer discard spell might make it tough to fight them in the disruption exchanges. I'll try out this new build tonight for my stream and post how it plays through the matches, i might play with a 1-1 split of duress/thoughtseize, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
In the current metagame I don't see a reason to run Thoughtseize in the 75. Discarding was near never relevant in the recent weeks but life was. Switched to Duress/TherapyQuote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
i thought the split has some merit because of hitting clique/canonist and letting you swap the 1 duress for the sb thoughtseize to maintain 6 discards against D&T. still, i can understand the life to be important, especially with increased emphasis on Ad Nauseam. I'll go ahead with double Duress tonight then, and see how it goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear