Probly going back to my packrat concussion deadguy :p
Still want to run spirit of the lab and chains to punish the 70% of the format that still is gonna play blue.
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Probly going back to my packrat concussion deadguy :p
Still want to run spirit of the lab and chains to punish the 70% of the format that still is gonna play blue.
Dang. Forgot about Perish. That's a good one too, only creature maindeck it doesn't kill is Baleful Strix. Well, I guess Tasigur too if they play it. A friend tried one in Shardless, it's really good.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
And no Bob? It's still the MVP for me, especially when I get play it turn 1. That deck on Starcity I can totally understand it playing without Bob since Engineered Plague is likely to name human. Still hard for me to not play 4 Bobs since we don't really play any other forms of card drawing and/or manipulation.
Played a bunch after the Cruise banning. It's back to the same old same old. Canadian Threshold, Bug Delver, Shardless BUG, Miracles etc. Which I'm fine with. Played on camera at a Trios tournament back home (On a team where one person each plays Legacy, Modern and Standard). Beat Junk. Hopefully they covered some of my match....though I'm guessing they covered more of the Modern Match. Boo urns.
Couple of questions, on which help is appreciated:
a) What is the consensus about the bad match-ups for this deck?
b) Can Cabal Therapy play a role in this deck? Or is it confined to versions that use a token strategy (ie Bitterblossom / Lingering Souls)? (reason for asking is that ANT for example, even without token generators still uses Cabal Therapy).
Thanks!
a) Combo, in general, is usually at best a 50/50 for non blue decks. They can simply "have it" and if you're interaction is too slow you lose. The fact you can't cantrip to powerful disruption is the other factor; leaving you heavily in the hands of the RNG.Quote:
Originally Posted by jmlima
b) There is misunderstanding here. ANT/TES use cabal therapy because they typically use Ad Nausium. With a deck who's average card cost is ~.75; losing 2 life is ~= 3 cards. Cabal Therapy is a Thoughtseize that hits multiples and occasionally gets use twice, while not costing them life. They can't use Duress due to hatebears, they can't use IoK due to FoW or Mindbreak Trap (and other similar cards) so they use Cabal therapy.
Further, they can guess what you're likely to have that actually interacts with them based on your colors, the meta, etc.. so they don't miss as often as you'd hope. They also run Probe to mitigate the issues of CT.
For DGA/Junk/etc.. having a 1-2 Cabal Therapy is fine next to the "stock" 4 thoughtseize. If you run Tidehollow Sculler you can actually support a 4/3/2 split and see their hand reliable before using cabal therapy. You'll often see CT lists use Probe due to it's obvious synergy; and I can say from experience that if you're using Delve creatures, (Tombstalker) the Probe->Therapy combo is very effective at filling your grave.
Therapy is at it's best in SFM/Delver metas where you can get free information and pin someone with it, especially late game where they get that SoFaI and you draw a DRS. Just play him, sac him, eat the sword, and buy a bunch of time.
Still, as powerful as the card is, you have to be a bit careful with the number of copies. It's something like:
# Hand-view effects : # Cabal Therapy's
4 : 1
7 : 2
10 : 3
11 : 4
if you want a 90% chance of having a Hand-View effect in your opener *given* you have a Cabal Therapy in your opener.
[Disclaimer: This may be wrong by a bit as I'm abusing the "cumulative multivariate hypergeometric distribution" found here. Having not done the math myself, I'm merely "confident" that I can abuse the values both ways (by replacing "# lands" and "# colored cards" with "# hand view effects" and "# cabal therapy" and viewing the first "turn 1" table, since you care more about your opener. Anecdotal experience seems to imply that this abuse of their math works for other decks I've built)]
Honestly, you can play Cabal therapy really well without many hand view cards if you know your meta and opposing decks well. And remember that cabal therapy itself is a hand view card, even if your first one whiffs. It does definitely get better with tokens and such to sac for the flashback though.
Good article on it on CF from 2012:
http://www.channelfireball.com/home/...erapy-session/
The only combo decks I really fear are the ones that consistently kill turn 1 like Belcher or oops. Storm is about 50/50. Reanimator and sneak are in my favor. As far as other problem decks. Burn, shardless bug and lol, anyone running punishing fire. As far as therapyvus concerned, I play one and it's fine. Used to play more but missing sucks.
I agree, though I prefer to have information against fair decks since they're holds are less predictable and the Card Disadvantage from missing is a bigger dealQuote:
Originally Posted by hovercraft
I agree on the T1's, though if you go first and have TS/IoK/CT (and hit) you're typically fine IME. I stopped caring since Needle and 6 T1 discard deal with them, not to mention that they get hated out by the delver's anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilkin
I agree on Storm (if your deck and side have the proper hate) and Reanimator. My experience with S&T varies heavily. My current usage of Revoker + Lily makes me more confident in the MU. (I've been using him since D&T was everywhere in my meta and him + Lily is basically as good as Karakas + Revoker.)
Elves also vary quite a bit for me. My occasional 1-of Pontiff, usage of Charms/ZPs, or Deluge have all contributed to varying degrees. That reclamation sage hurts though.
Thanks for the info guys. Very informative and plenty of food for thought.
I play a BWg version, but very budget compared to other builds I see in here, since I do not have Wastelands or Lilianas, which is probably causing some issues with deck performance as I can get to a stalemate (amazingly even against fast combo), but very rarely can I win the grueling race to the end.
As far as bad match ups go, it really depends on your list.
I have played in six events in the last nine months, which is not a great sample size. But my only six losses were Elves, Elves, Belcher, Reanimator, Elves, Elves.
I found that D&T, Delver and Shardless are basically impossible to lose to if you play well as you just have higher impact cards and don't have a set up cost to anything other than Stoneforge Mystic, which still equalizes a card if they kill it.
Sneak Attack and Reanimation are about 50-50, Much harder to beat a Show & Tell than the other methods of putting a fatty into play.
A lot of people in this forum typically say Elves is a good match-up, and I think it is about 50-50 at best. Probably lower. As you can see here, I lose because the raw power of Natural Order and Glimpse of Nature... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoapntukBwQ
Also, Cabal Therapy sounds all fine and dandy, but I doubt you'd ever want it in the MD. In the SB, maybe, but they're are more hard-hitting answers.
Do you play against Miracles often? If not, how do I find the events you play in?Quote:
Originally Posted by MBSegal
I find that Miracles is a match-up that revolves around two cards: Sword of Fire and Ice and Liliana of the Veil. I initially had a losing record against the deck, but once I learned the match-up, I have not lost since. There is a video somewhere of me playing against Joe Losset on his stream and winning actually. The match-up may be worse now that they have Dig Through Time, but if they continue to cut Entreat the Angels then I think we may be in business. It is probaby 45-55% in their favor. Revoker helps a lot postboard though.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
Are you playing Revoker over Needle because of Combo, because against Miracles, you likely REALLY want Needle.
-Matt
Used to split Revoker with needle but moved to 2 needles and a stoney Silence instead. Reason for stoney its a wide card. Enchantment is a better permanent typ then artifact as stoneforge is artifact based anyway. Most needle targets are artifacts against many decks, stoney has the advantech to hose them random affinity decks but its mostly to hit both LED and Petals with just 1 card.
1 mana vs 2 mana for needle vs revoker is a big diffrence. Prefere needles, needles dont get massacred from reanimator decks or sworded / wrathed from a miracle deck.
So you do you side out a few equipment when you side in Stony Silence? Yeah, would definitely say it would a surprise if I were the opponent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rizso
Needle is for sure much better vs Miracles than Revoker, which a Resolved Needle Miracles' only options are Wear/Tear or Council's Judgment. But for me it's hard to resist playing Revoker in the board. Disruption on a dude, hard to pass up for me. I've done alright lately vs Miracles but it's still annoying to play against. What's more annoying than that is one of the Miracles opponents' was new to Legacy. Geez. New to legacy and you try that deck?
And here is some evidence on why I think my matchup vs Elves is favorable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFt0vxLfiqI
I usually lose game 1 vs Elves but win games 2 and 3. Game 3 ended with him having no permanents in play.
Because you had one round where your deck worked as planned and your opponents' didn't, twice?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilkin
By that logic my Manaless Dredge has an incredible MU vs. ANT, b/c I had this one round where I beat it... And so on vs. anything running RiP & friends in their SB. Uhm... Yeah... OMG, seriously.
Wow, someone's a bit hostile.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I rarely get to play on camera so I can't post any more streams/matches against Elves or anyone else. I'm favored over Elves. MBSegal posted that he hasn't done that well vs Elves, whereas I have. On the other hand, he's stated he's done very well Vs Miracles, whereas I haven't.
Meh, I just find your statement incredibly silly. Do remember I'm used to dealing with Lemnear over at the Elves!-thread (no offense, lol).Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilkin
Ok, so while the match shown isn't typical of exactly what happens vs Elves, I do usually end up winning. I'm favored over Elves, I don't see why that statement is silly in the least. I usually don't beat the deck leaving them with no permanents but the end result is the same.
Trying out a COP:Red and an Enlightened Tutor for now as Burn is getting a bit more popular right now where I am. Do people here prefer COP:Red or Kor Firewalker? I went with COP: Red since I can tutor for other things in other matchups.
Either COP:R or Absolute Law are the ones I've tried (both in Deadguy and DnT with black splash). I've found Absolute Law to be really good since it doesn't take any mana to protect my dudes. Sure, the burn player can still throw bolts in my face, but jitte or batterskull usually gains me enough life to win. Tried Warmth a while as well, but it only tends to drag out the games leaving me without creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilkin
I have a question for you: Have you considered Mox Diamond instead of Chrome Mox? Pros/cons? Right now I'm thinking about running a coup of Tasigurs, but maybe a couple of moxes are better...
OK. Cop red can be a bit if a mana sieve. But I am worried about being burned out and people maindeck vortex...hoping to use vortex against them with cop red. Warmth and absolute law interesting too.
I only run 21 lands so I can't really run Mox diamond. I used to run mox diamond in junk and I felt u need at least 24 land to run that. I'm fine with chrome Mox, I only run 2. Used to run 3 but cut one out because deathrite took its spot. Drawing it late sucks but the early game acceleration is worth it.
Against merfolk I had turn 1 mystic both games for sofi.