I'll third these feeling on the RUG Delver matchup. It's foolish to underestimate it.
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I'll third these feeling on the RUG Delver matchup. It's foolish to underestimate it.
Well, I'd still suggest the red splash, as Wear / Tear and Blood Moon, as well as Keranos are killers in those matchups. And MUD is a Legacy deck. It's pretty fringe and unstable at times, but it is a deck. Like it was said, you should be able to do it with a basic Mountain + Steam Vents.Quote:
Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack
Thanks guys! I think I'll start with one of LSV's lists and go from there.
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That may be true for Joe's list since he is/was relying more on Karakas and Cavern. I always fetch basics first (as you should be doing unless you really need the Tundra) so that shuts off Wasteland.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
I actually don't think that's the best approach.Quote:
Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack
I'd highly suggest you pick one of the successful lists from here, as these lists are generally much more refined (and tested) than LSV's lists, no matter how good LSV is as a player. :D
RUG is, imo, a harder matchup than stuff life BUG and Grixis delver, due to mongoose. It is also the matchup that can lead to the most blowouts, as cb+top is actually a hardlock against them, compared to the two other variants. I found that you usually stabilise at around 5-6 life, if you end up winning.
In that case, does anybody mind posting their lists?Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
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This is a recent list that is a good place to start for a 4 Ponder build in my opinion. Some of the sideboard choices are metagamed, but you can update this as you go.Quote:
Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...?DeckID=100741
Edit: This is another one that was linked to a few pages back that might not be a bad place to start:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/20-02-16-QNS-miracles/
Thank you! I'll be sure to tinker with one of these!
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I don't get how you can consider RUG Delver like the most favorable of the Delver matchups for Ponder Miracles.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
IMHO it's by far the most difficult, like 50-50.
The most favorable seems to be Grixis, which doesn't play Decay, Stifle or shroud creatures. It's true they have Cabal Therapy, but they can't do anything after you assemble Top/CB and resolve a single Terminus.
Then comes BUG Delver, which has Decay and Tourach, but is particularly weak against Jace and obviously Terminus.
I don't really know which is easier between Grixis and BUG, but I'd say they are both 55-45 or maybe better.
RUG Delver, on the other hand, plays both Mangoose and Stifle, which are probably the best cards a Delver deck can play against Miracles.
From the sideboard they bring in Pyroblast and Library, so I guess games 2&3 are even tougher than game 1.
RUG Delver just has all the weapons both BUG and Grixis have, all in one deck. It just misses Decay, which I admit is a huge minus, but on the other hand it's so aggressive that it isn't really that easy to assemble the "combo" before you're already dead.
If your experience tells you RUG Delver is the easiest of the Delver decks, maybe you just played vs poor RUG Delver pilots.
This Post is 100% fluff.
I am going to be playing some Miracles for the first time really ever tonight. I full expect to go 0-4 but have fun doing so. Can't wait to top all night.
Good luck!Quote:
Originally Posted by potatodavid
Did some testing against Eldrazi yesterday. That matchup is absolutely terrible for us. 4 MB Cavern of Souls and MB Chalices make most of our deck really dead. Any advice for this matchup?
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Matchup is unfavored, but not insanely so.Quote:
Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack
It's close to MUD, just about a turn quicker. Terminus is excellent, as well is Jace. EtA are superior compared to mentor in the matchup.
Hey all, haven't posted on here in a while but BBD took my miracles list through a CFB video. The list was worked on by people that we mentioned earlier and he really liked the decklist for sure:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjmsaVrPtsc
Liked the list, disliked his play with it :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Minniehajj
Yeah he definitely made a few incorrect decisions rounds one and two, round one mostly due to being pressed heavily on time and round 2, if Land grant wasn't bugged on mtgo, I think his play would have been FAR superior because he'd be able to make much more informed decisions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
I agree, it was mainly the "Lose to Blighted Agent with Spell Snare on top" :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Minniehajj
Yeah, Land Grant is pretty busted on modo. Impressive it still is, I saw this bug about 3 months ago.
Expected to go full 0-4 last night.
Ended up going 3-1 on my first time playing the deck.
Beat: Slivers, Miracles Mirror, & Eldrazi
Loss: Post MUD.
What I've learned:
-There is so much silly shit you can do with this deck that is just ridiculous, no wonder people get called for slow play so often.
- Moat is Really good against eldrazi
- Mentor is insanely good in my meta.
- Ugin is a card.
Deck list?
Quote:
Originally Posted by potatodavid
Preface this with 3 statements:Quote:
Originally Posted by MiraclesWizard
1. I don't know what I'm doing
2. I'm at work so I'll get a proper decklist later
3. I will probably forget to do #2.
Meat:
3x Snapcaster Mage
3x Mentor
1x V.Clique
Potatoes:
4x Terminus
4x STP
4x Top
4x CB
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
2x Jace the Mindsculptor
1x Entreat
2x Counter Spell
4x FOW
Lands:
4x Islands
2x Plains
4x Tarn
3x Strand
2x Volcanic
4x Tundra
2x Arid Mesa
SB
2x Canonist
1x Izzet flash haste pingy guy (thing to kill all the pyromancer tokens)
1x Containment Priest
1x Moat
2x Wear//Tear
2x Blood Moon
2x Pyroblast
1x REB
Some Deck choices:
2x JTMS vs 3. I only own the 2. I will probably save and get a 3rd.
No Councils Judgement. I ordered one but its in the Mail
3 Mentors Seems like too many: Well My plan was 2, but the shop only had 1 Entreat so... I added a 3rd mentor, I also figured I'm short a jace so why not.
2 v 3 Jace is a question of how much you lean on him as a win-con and not just a 4-mana Brainstorm. I personally play 2 because he's clunky in your opener and I'm more reliant on ETA/creature beats to win me my games.
Since making the cut from 3 to 2 I haven't looked back.
Am I allowed to run only two JTMS if I have three Worldwake foils?Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
3rd one relegated to SB.
Finished 10th in the classic yesterday on tiebreakers with my normal list. Would likely have made top 8 but actually threw away a match I had won. While GerryT was playing his invitational top 8 (which would determine my PC fate) I wasn't paying much attention to my own match. I countered a daze with four land untapped. This directly resulted in my not winning.
So basically I followed up a devastating end of season 1 by comically screwing up the start of season 2.
Tough beats dude. I saw the standings today, total bummer. Get it back together and get ready for next season!Quote:
Originally Posted by oarsman
Congratulations on the performance anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by oarsman
Not having mentor in the 75 is a definitive thing or is it still competing for a slot? Why/why not?
I'm currently playing a 2 predict, 20 land Miracles list with 2 spell snare and 1 counterspell, (9 fetches, 4 duals, 7 basics, one being a mountain).
My sideboard consists of zero Blood moon, Back to Basics, Moat or anything like that. 2 Stoneforge and 1 batterskull.
Went 4-1-1 today (unintentional draw).
Beat Barook Eldrazi 2-1, round 1.
Game one was not really close, He drew tons of gas as well as mana to eventually activate Eye of Ugin. Game two and three I stabilized on the back of Stoneforge -> Batterskull, on 2 and 3 life respectively.
-4 Counterbalance, -1 Ponder, +2 Stoneforge Mystic, +1 Batterskull, +1 Wear//Tear, +1 Council's Judgment.
Drew with Esper Thing in the Ice. Game one he therapied two balances, forces a third and me seeing the fourth in the top 20 cards. He conceded with a 1 and two on top and CSpell on his mentor.
Game two and three I saw nothing of relevance at all. Game three, I would likely have won given enough time, due to Stoneforge + Batterskull coming up on his board of 2 Strixes.
-2 Force of Will, -2 Terminus, -2 Swords to Plowshares, +2 Stoneforge Mystic, +1 Batterskull, +2 Red Elemtal Blast, +1 Izzet Staticaster.
Lost 0-2 to storm.
Game 1, on the draw: He goes turn 1 preordain, I go turn 1 land go - He goes Duress take your Snare, D.Rit x2 + LED + Ad Nauseum from 20.
Saw NOTHING in game two. He had a Notion Thieve, because he's a dirty person, when I could have found something on my hail marry brainstorm.
-2 Swords to Plowshares, -3 Terminus, -2 Entreat the Angels, -2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, -1 Plains, +2 REB, +1 Pyroblast, +2 Flusterstorm, +2 Vendilion Clique, +1 Wear//Tear, +1 Surgical Extraction, +1 Izzet Staticaster
Won 2-0 against lands.
He made a turn 4 20/20, which hit me once (going to two, from 2x Grove life gains). I had a turn 2 balance, turn 5 Jace, bouncing his 20/20.
Won the game with angels eventually.
Same in game two. Jace was excellent, but he was on straight RG Lands, so no Decay and Vortex, which was pretty good for me.
Don't remember what I cut here, but something like -1 Ponder, -1 Counterspell, +1 Wear//Tear, +1 Surgical I think. Not entirely sure.
Won 2-0 against Elves.
Game one I terminus'd his first batch, played a balance, terminus'd again and he conceded.
Game two I had stoneforge into batterskull. He ended up on 4 life, decaying my token (to survive). On his EoT I bounced Batterskull, Activated stoneforge, where I held priority and terminus'd away all his dudes and me with a batterskull.
-2 Force of Will, -2 Jace, -2 EtA, -1 Ponder, +2 Stoneforge, +1 Batterskull, +1 Wear//Tear, +1 Council's Judgement, +1 Izzet Staticaster, +1 Containment Priest.
Won 2-0 against DnT.
Game one I just sword's, Snapcastered and Terminus'd away until I could eventually entreat at his EoT. Two turns later and he was dead.
Game two was pretty much the same. He was new to the deck, and took foreeeeeeeeeever.
-4 Counterbalance, -2 Force of Will, +2 Stoneforge Mystic, +1 Batterskull, +1 Wear//Tear, +1 Council's Judgement, +1 Containment Priest.
Great to hear! Would love to see your list. 20 land makes me happy and I'd love to have a reason to try it againQuote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
Congratulations! I have a question, if you don't mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
So you sided two force of will out against DnT and you left the spell snares, but I've been leaving in all four forces vs DnT. Do you really think that Spell Snare or even the counterspell is better than the force? I feel like I never have mana to cast counterspell and Spell snare feels a bit limited vs a lot of the cards which I really do want to counter (Cataclysm, Aether Vial, Council's judgment, even opposing stp). I'd really like to hear your take on this. :)
My current list (I think you will recognize most of Minni ;) ):
4x Flooded Strand
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Arid Mesa
3x Tundra
1x Volcanic Island
4x Island
2x Plains
1x Mountain
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Entreat the Angels
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Counterbalance
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
2x Predict
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Terminus
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Snare
1x Counterspell
Sideboard:
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Red Elemental Blast
1x Pyroblast
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Wear//Tear
1x Council's Judgement
2x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Batterskull
1x Containment Priest
2x Flusterstorm
2x Vendilion Clique
I do, actually, want to find room for a Keranos, Gott der Stürme. I just don't want to cut anything; If I wanted it, however, I would probably cut the Stoneforge + Batterskull, and play a Blood Moon, The Keranos as well as a Moat.
I think, my rationale with boarding like I did against the DnT, was that I wasn't super frightened about his Cataclysm; I wanted Spell Snare for potential Warping Veils, as well as wanting intercation for his (potential) turn 2 Thalia/Stoneforge/Revoker. If he didn't do anything for the first 3 turns (turn 1 vial, turn 2 port me, turn 3 port + x, EoT two-drop), I would already feel super much ahead.
Council's Judgement is a do nothing, I feel like. You board all you Counterbalances, anyhow, and if you play Jace uncontested, on an empty board, you are very far ahead, even if he eventually Judgements it. Swords is an absolute do-nothing. I don't play Mentor, as yeah... There's that.
I might actually have boarded -2 Predict, +2 Force of Will if I had enough time to think about it, but I was 3-1-1 before the round, and game 1 took 30 of our 45 minutes (with him being incredibly slow, it was, as mentioned, the first time on DnT and he actually had to read several of his own cards... Plus thinking for +20 at all my EoT, because he was thinking about vial.) I just had to quickly board, at that time it actually made sense to board like that; He went turn 1 Vial, turn 2 Thalia which got snared.
My plan was to stabilize, which I did, and then just find either Entreat for EoT or Jace + Force. I found EtA, and killed him on my turn after 6 angel came anruf'd.
Game wasn't really close, and I wasn't in any danger at any points.
*Æther Vial: I think like this one is much less scary in game two. The thing about it, is that you are getting ported/wasted as well as it dodging Balance. Balance is garbage in the matchup anyhow; Most people also play a non-zero amount of Caverns. I actually think he matchup is slightly favoured after board, with the Stoneforge Plan.
Also, there is some tension between SB Mentor and Moat. In the match-ups where you want Mentor's chump blocking capabilities, you would typically be looking to bring in Moat as well. Of course one could argue, that in those match-ups you don't mind having multiple "solutions". Especially as Moat is only a one-off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reagens
Playing a large tournament this weekend, and am on the fence with my 2 SB Mentors, as I just invested in a Moat. Running a list with:
21 Lands
3-Ponder
1 Clique
2 Counterspell
2 Entreat
1 Snare / Pierce
1 Council's Judgement
x Stock
Any input on the SB would be much appreciated. Currently I'm at:
2 Wear // Tear [Non-negotiable]
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast [could be reduced to 1? Would weaken the mirror]
1 Izzet Staticaster [Pretty sure it's worth a slot]
1 Flusterstorm [Not sure 1 is enough]
1 Ethersworn Canonist [Swap for one additional Flusterstorm? Like the beat-down element though]
1 Blood Moon [Would like to increase to 2, or try B2B]
[Anti GY/combo package. Pretty flexible. Might swap surgical for an extra RiP?]
1 Rest in Peace
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Containment Priest
Anti-beatdown
2 Monastery Mentor [Also tempo increase vs decks with inevitability!]
1 Moat
A few random notes:
Expecting a fairly competitive field, but with some random brews as well.
I'm on the "overload Abrupt Decay" strategy rather than "blank it".
Fitting a Pithing Needle vs. random stuff would be nice.
I managed to get in a fair number of pre-board test games using RIP-Helm Miracles against DnT and BUG Delver, and these are the results I found. This is in case anyone is still curious about the MU differences between this weird version of the deck and the more standard 4 Ponder / 3 Snapcaster variant. All the games we played were preboard.
In my deck, I run a preboard Blood Moon instead of the usual Detention Sphere. I'm sure this will hurt me someday, but today was not that day.
DnT: Going into this I thought the matchup would be awful for me, but happily I turned out to be dead wrong. The extra land in the RIP/Helm helps out a lot, and I only got mana screwed in one test game in which I'd kept a fairly shaky grip in the first place. The DnT player just couldn't manage to stop the Helm combo despite running 3 Revokers and 3 Flickerwisps. I had to use various means to kill the Revokers here and there, from ambushing them with Vendilion Clique to investing a pair of StP on one of them. There was really just too much stuff for his Revokers to do, naming Top and Jace and then Helm on top of everything makes Terminus a very pleasant feeling.
In the closest game, I managed to stabilize at 1 life behind an Energy Field with only a Blood Moon turning off his Wastelands. I found Rest In Peace before he found Flickerwisp, and that was that.
Maybe we made mistakes, but it certainly seemed like the matchup was fairly one-sided. I was 5-1 when the other player had to leave.
BUG Delver: The guy was playing an older style of build, with Hymn to Tourach, Liliana, and Tombstalker. This time, I didn't feel as good as I used to playing 4 Ponder. Blood Moon would have stolen a game if I weren't a complete idiot (sacrificing it to a Liliana ultimate was a lapse in judgment of the type that occurs after 10 straight games in a hot room: I could have won with that card alone, and should have done so). Top, Terminus, Counterbalance, JTMS stole another one.
The trouble here was that RIP/Helm doesn't run 4 StPs and doesn't flash them back, and although RIP can be powerful, it is also quite fragile against the Abrupt Decay deck. Once various enchantments got countered or destroyed, they grew the Goyfs like crazy, and Liliana of the Veil was a big problem.
Today i play Vs big eldrazi deck (ulamog, kozilek ecc..) i lose 0 2..matchup is very hard
whats your deck list and what do you sb in vs Eldrazi?Quote:
Originally Posted by caprino
Side Vs eldrazi is moon moat ecc..my opponent play grim monolith, dinamo thran voltaic key ecc.. Eye of ugin... Matchup is very difficultQuote:
Originally Posted by MiraclesWizard
Voltaic key, huh? Pretty sure that's banned in Legacy. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by caprino
Disregard this false information.^
Is not.
I just realized how mistaken I was. But how couldn't it be? I'm a little hazy on this to be honest. I haven't seen anyone play it in years and years.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
Why would you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Echinoderm
It's an artifact that untaps another artifact for a C.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
Just seems like a very good card with metal worker and monolith, that's all. I suppose I'm just ignorant of this. ^D^